starting 40k army (from a WHFB army)

hi everyone i'm out of fantasy since 2009 due to lack of time, but want to build a separate 40k force from the minis i own , rebasing them with round bases.

i have the following all square bases and some very well painted both mini and base:

15 old flamers(bird head)
40 horrors (include 10 new ones)
7 seekers (old v.)
27 daemonettes(incl. 12 of the 7th edition)
28 letters (old ones)
5 bl. crushers(old)
9 screamers
7 fiends(old)
40 plaguebearers
8 nurgling bases
12 fleshounds

all 4 g daemons
2 princes
some heralds
1 soulgrinder

maybe i miss something but it is almost everything

now i started rebasing the 10 new horrors, and some flamers

what do you think will be a viable force to start with using what i have?

thank you very much!!

Let's see - good stuff in the 40k daemons codex: flying monsters (thirster, lord of change, flying princes), beasts (mainly fiends), flamers (because they're cheap and more survivable after the update), screamers (also due to the WD update), and as troops, I'd say 5 horrors with bolt are still the best option.

I suggest making a list you think works, and we can give C&C on it. It makes our jobs easier, and helps you learn list making skills for 40k (because I know it's vastly different from fantasy)

HQ
GuO, flies 165p
Tarpit bullits magnet and fierce in C.C.

Elite
6 Fiends, might 190p
8 Flamers 184p
7 Flamers 161p
Fast units, flamers to be DS behings LOS blocking terrein to save them from shooting in the DS round. Fiends are best used when they face initiative units of 4 or less and work really well vs AV.

Troops
5 Horrors 85p
5 Horrors 85p
5 Horrors 85p
5 Horrors 85p
Good unit with lots of shoots and AP3. Left out the bolt since it makes the unit waste all of their other shots when using it.

Fast attack
7 Seekers 119p
9 Screamers 225p
12 Flesh hounds 180p
Seekers are Fiends light, same as but lower S and T. Screamers are to move flatout when they DS (is done in the shootingphase) then use it vs AV. Flesh hounds are to get in to C.C and hold units, keeping them from fireing and slowly grind them down, really good unit vs psyker abillities (Grey knights and so)

Heavy support
DP, MoT, wings, bolt, BoC 235p
DP, MoT, wings, bolt, BoC 235
Swooping in and flying around bolting and BoCing stuff on the way. Donīt land! remain flying, there are better stuff to have for C.C and tankpoping.
/1846p

For smaller lists I would lose 1-2 DPs, 1 fast attack and 1 troop. GL in 40K!

Horrors are not AP3, they're AP4. And BS3, so they suck at shooting anyway. Give them a bolt for the oddball chance of glancing stuff to death.

Great Unclean One is slow compared to the other greater daemons. It's better to pay an extra 100 points to get the speed and stat boosts of 'thirster.

Tzeentch flying princes are horribly expensive, may as well get a Lord of Change for those points. Not to mention you don't need 2 more breaths when you already have 2 units of flamers.

7 seekers will be shot to pieces and dragged down in the first round of combat. 10-12 -minimum- in a unit, or just put the points into something else.

Donīt agree with what Zech says here. Horrors are Ap 4 my bad. A bolt is always nice on them itīs just a call you have to make in every list wether or not to take it. If taking bolts it means they have to be with in 24" of the enemy very close to C.C range and we donīt want to have them there! Iīd take them on maybe 2 and have the rest as objective holders.

GuO is better then all the others because you know what you get, the others are so much easier to kill with there 4 wounds and 4+ save. Flying MCs are easy to get down, they just need to hit them and we have to take a 3+ save and when they get us down they assault and weīre looked. Better to have a T6, 4+ save and FnP that wants to be in C.C and have re-roll to wound! Itīs a tarpit unit and having GuO means you keep so much else out of focus and fire like Flamers, screamers, Seekers, Fiends that have so much more to give. Every model canīt be looked at as it is going to be the sole model on the table. Seekers die easy if they get shot at, sure! But who will shot at seekers with all this on the table?! I to think 10-12 is better but I think 7 seekers is one of the better options with the models thats was at hand.

Sure flying DPs are expensive and the LoC is a walid option even thou a little more expensive but having BoC is super nice (but a place to cut points if needed else were) and the only second option vs AV (vector strike is hard vs armour 11). Put the template so it just touches the tank and hits other models (mostly there are hangaround units that seekout tanks for cover) and you have very nice versatile weapon.

Are there better list to be had from this variation of model? Of course there is but this is just one of many, and a good one at that . But it is good and viable with lots of options depending on the outcome from DS, prefered wave and other things that will come up. Different units will be scary for different opponents but who ever they pick at others can fill there shoes. Seekers, Fiends, Flamers and screamers can all take out tanks in a good way and there is shooting from the DPs. For infantry there is Seekers, Fiends, Flamers, GuO and DPs. With all those BoCs an infantry list will be crushed.

Ap4 is relevant vs necrons, tau, eldar, Tyranids, orks and guard. Obviously the most relevant one being necrons.

And they... Suck at shooting? I'm sorry but I at Tyranids... And I know that volumes of fire makes up for lack of ap and bs3. you find another unit that has a storm bolter with 1 extra base shot And one less ap...

They are better at shooting than most infantry (unless we count up close and personal, where they aren't supposed to be anyway because they are Tzeentch daemons.)

And with always deepstriking, you have a chance to get some rear armor.

But I do agree with the daemon prince needing to e a lord of change for its cost. Taking off breath would more justify its cost.

Not sure I can agree with the GUO logic. It's 90 points for more speed and no FNP and being BETTER in cc (which is a bad thing)

To save myself some trouble later, a Bloodthirster will whipe out most anything it charges. A close combat unit doesnt want to end the combat the turn it charges. It wants to end it on the opponents turn, where their shooting phase has already happened.

Great unclean one is duribe, and will win in most combats. He will just win at the right time... Or keep a unit locked in eternal combat.

It's a 3+ save then a you get wounded on a 2+ (so you are cool on a 1) and then a 4++ save. You won't be taking a wound very likely. There are 2 FMC in this particular descussion, lord or change and Bloodthirster, and the Bloodthirster would love to get charged. The lord of change isn't bad in combat either. And no where in grounded does it say that hard to hit goes away sí your opponent still needs snapshots to hit.

thanks everyone so far , i'm in fantasy since 1996 but in 40k since 2009 and played just a few games (mostly with my other armies - BA and DE) , i forgot to mention the other daemons minis i have, a new slaanesh chariot kit(the exalted) and a 3 DP (old)
one of them is the old Tzeentch GD.

so "slicing" what i have in almost two parts, i have room for many minis to rebase,
maybe i'll pass over the squared angled bases of fleshounds and let them be as they are(they appear the same in the Daemons codex) and maybe the square bases for screamers, i'll buy 2 round bases kits anyway also for the GD variation of bases

i agree for the DP "cost problem" , maybe an army with a BT and a LOC together?
too much eggs in 1 basket??

i love GUO also , i used it most of the times

The Seekers chariots are great, havenīt played the exalted but as it is the same exept for being +2HP I canīt see there is a big difference there. The problem with AV models for CD is we have to few, all the big shooting will have only one target so it will not be long lived even tou it moves flatout in DS round maing it 4+ save. I am currently playing 2x cavalcad (3 seeker chariots) and Kairos and it is a great way to keep them alive. DS kairos satly ion the middle and the same with the cavalcades and then just move flatout with in 6" of Kairos and they will not be harmed! Having 18 x D6 S6 hits is just super nice.

Chaos4real , that's a nice tactic since 40k plans relies much on DS moves and planning , at least from what i personally saw the few battles i played.
talking 'bout chariots, i see that the Fantasy versions of the Slaneesh chariots are "weaker" in their role compared to their 40k counterparts, i decided in any case to play it with no base glued so to test it /them in both games.
in fact, the 2+chariots option seems at least to live long compared to the appealing but easily to smash out Exalted chariot.

As a list from those models I'd go for:
Bloodthirster w might & blessing - 275
Lord of Change w breath - 280
5 Bloodcrushers, one w fury - 210
6 Fiends - 180
7 Flamers - 161
5 Horrors w bolt and changeling - 100
3x 5 Horrors w bolt - 95 x3
9 Screamers - 225 (can be split up into 4 and 5, not sure if that's a good idea yet)
9 Flesh Hounds - 135

Lord of Change has S6 T6 and a 3++ save - he's much more durable than a prince and only misses out on one attack. And I still think he's better than a Great Unclean One as he can shoot stuff when not in combat, and has a 3++ so he's not much less durable (statistically, the only difference is the extra wound).

Horrors have to take bolts. It's just 10 points, and while they'll often miss or be out of range (nobody says you can't hold them back), it makes them a viable threat that will hinder opponents (so rhinos won't just callously drive in front of them). And if you kill one rhino the entire game, you got the points back.

I like flesh hounds - T4 and being beasts (no dangerous tests when entering ruins, and can climb) makes them more survivable. They may not have rending, but they wound T4 on 3+ instead of 5+ on the charge. They may not take out cobmat units like fiends do, but they do a decent enough job at taking down light vehicles and small units.

There is no "getting points back" in 40k. There is only "being worth it's cost". 10 points for s8 ap1? Awesome!

But if your goal is to compare you spend 10 points to kill a 35 point model, your playing it wrong.

That logic says plague bearers are worthless. That logic says land raiders are worthless as well.

Plague bearers basically can't kill anything. That's not why you take them, you take them because they are worth their cost. They do something for you that you expend the points for.

Land raiders don't kill much either. They can help... But really they don't. They are a piece of moving impossible terrain that advance your guys forward. They won't do 250 points worth of damage, but they will do something.

Making you points back isn't logically sound. Your units make their points back by being in the right place at the end of the game. Only 1 mission cares how much you can kill, and that mission doesn't care how many points your unit is.

Bolt is a good buy because it gives your guys a better chance to kill something for little cost to you. It is worth it's cost, weather it ever actually hits or not. Because half of the time it will hit. And at s8 ap1, that 50% adds up in an army that has more than one.

Also note that pink horrors BS in this edition doesn't matter as much... Fliers are an equally annoying issue to deal with as mech was last edition. And a horror or a lord of change... Your hitting that doomscyth on 6's.

If you read my whole post, you'll see I wasn't talking just about making their points back...

As for shooting at fliers - I'd rather shoot at virtually anything else (transports, troops, walkers) and just try to vector strike fliers out of the sky.

On the point of making your points back, I know your post had other things in it, but I didn't respond to those because I thought you were correct... I only responded to the getting points back because its hard to justify saying something like that, because units are only good at doing their job, which isn't always killing.

On the point of vector strike: you are very correct on that. I never considered it, because I don't use monstrous creatures often outside of tyranids (and the harpy is a joke, the tyrant is fragil, so fliers here are few and fleeting with my experience) I am actually baffled I missed such a simple solution to AV13 necron spam, or fliers in general. It's... Wow. Thank you for that. I mean, it has it's issues (random attacks, s6 usually, high cost unit) but its probably the best way for daemons.

Yeah, against a Stormraven, a Lord of Change will rarely be of much use. But a Bloodthirster with Unholy Might is painful. Sure, it's random, but less random than praying for 6's to hit. :/

As for making their points back, it's something that should always be taken into consideration. Sure, it's not always done by killing, I agree on that, but when they DO kill something, it's a return on your investment. And a 35 point rhino wrecked (or heck, even just immobilized) thanks to paying 40 points to give 4 squads of horrors bolts is what I would call a reasonable return. Add to that the fact that the opposing player will know you have said bolts and thus alter his plans, possibly to avoid getting bolted, and the occasional shot on hapless marines out of cover, and to me the points are well invested.

Even though it's frustrating when you have 3 turns where you do completely nothing with your shooting phase...