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Dealing with Empire
Member No.: 3,131
Joined: 8-May 12
I took my daemons out for a spin against the empire the other day.
It was seriously tough. All their synergy stuff is nasty. I lost by 625points in the end but it could have been a lot worse.
GuO L2, Mucous, balesword 595
HoT, MoS Shadow, SB 165
HoK, BSB, AoK, Sundering 190
HoK, AoK 115
30 BL, FC 390
29 BL, FC 378
5 Furies 60
3 Screamers 120
3 Screamers 120
Grinder, Claw 260
He had learned from our last game when I picked off all his characters in units and kept his BSB and wizards out of the combat units
He keeps his hurricanum and war machines well protected by having them an inch behind things so a charge becomes very difficult until you can get properly behind him.
So I go charging across the board, I lost the grinder early to a combined charge of the demigriffs and reiksguard, which was stupid, but I wanted to give it a real test.
Shooting and magic wasn't so bad, my HoT miscast and lost pit of shades that would have been nice for dealing with warmchines. He put a few wounds on my GuO, but not so many he had to worry.
But the combat! This is the second time I've lost a bloodletter horde to a unit of halbadiers. I just don't know how to deal with them. Ideally I would take out the hurricanum first, but my screamers turned out to be completely inadequate for the task. He butchered my bloodletters, killing 15 in the first round of combat. I could have charged my GuO in at this point but they were just about to be flanked by the greatswords so I decided discresion was the better part of valour and ran away to try and pick up some easier points from his demigriffs and reiksguard.
I guess this has all got a bit jumbled, but other than playing the points-denial game and trying to pick off all his chaff and support units without losing too much of my own (no easy task in itself with his shooting and magic) how would you deal with a list like this?
Member No.: 35
Joined: 30-September 04
DReign is spot-on about the priest. Of course, if he just uses the WAlter he can avoid that issue completely...
The big thing to realise about combat is that while you win a battle or two with bloodletters Vs halberdiers, you are going to lose the war. Fully-buffed, you both hit on 3s, both have rerolls, both have no armour, both have a 5+ Ward save, and you have higher Init and one higher S. The problem is that his halberdiers are just over half the price of your bloodletters, and he has 50 Vs your 30. You should win the first combat, but after that you're in trouble - you both do solid amounts of damage on impact, but he stays steadfast even though you do more. From there on out he has more attacks as each dead bloodletter is a lost attack, while he starts with 20 ablative wounds, essentially meaning you are going to lose the war of attrition.
You have two options:
1) Re-design your list, bumping your bloodletter unit up to 40-strong. This is the lazy man's approach, but with two rounds of full-strength 'letters, you should be able to crack his steadfast.
2) Play your list as-is, and plan for the block. 50 halberdiers is a chunky unit, so bring it down with combined force. a good start would be to form up one of your bloodletter block 5 (I'd prefer 5 for safety's sake) or 6 wide, and charge it in with the GUO. Use the extra damage from the GUO (and mitigating his damage with smaller 'letter frontage) to keep the combat res in your favour, while the ranks from your 'letters now negate his steadfast.
Normally a third option is to use magic and shooting to make the huge block more manageable, but since he shoots and casts better than you holding back is a losing prospect.
The Eternal Bloodletter
Member No.: 2,658
Joined: 24-January 11
Didn't have time dwell on this topic in my last post. You're getting good advice from others though so just a few things:
Kbolster12345 couldn't be more accurate about the Nurglings. 2-3 designated WM-hunters is what I would call mandatory vs The Empire. Unlike stunties their crews are squishy but you need to take those damn machines out before he gets any real luck with them. Minimum sized Nurglings, Furies, even Seekers ... and hell, with the 5-minute job we got in the last WD I wouldn't be surpriced if Screamers simply answer to all those 3 from here on out.
A tightly run Empire army, making use of the potentially crazy new detachment rules, wins the straight up war of Attrition vs Daemons. You need to derail the mother... and turn those large fleshy blocks of mortals on themselves.
So you're looking at Siren Song (more than one if you want to be a prick of course) and Plaguewind, Dwellers, Purple Sun, Final Transmutation - Master of Sorcery in other words. Und_Ed is not going to advice you to 6-dicing stuff, but against most Empire (and all Dwarf-) Armies I pretty much think you may as well leave the magic at home unless you are prepared for a gamble.
Standard of Sundering is a given compliment to your list as well. It's not going to stop him tearing you a new one in the magic phase, but at least it will put a dent in his supremacy.
In a very general way; Worry less about the flanks and make sure you win the center. Derail those regimentals, flank the detachments, nuke the big units (if you can) and accept that taking out the Stank requires a suitably kitted Greater Daemon (the gambling approach is Lore of Metal or possibly Screamers although that's probably a stretch even with the D3 wounds on Large Targets).
Empire is a tough and perfectly balanced opponant. I love playing against this army. Even if doing everything by the book you can still lose if the dice are against you. And yeah, don't send your Bloodletters in to the fray and get them trapped 'cause that's exactly what the humies are designed to withstand.
There's a lot more that can be said. If you're opponant is smart he's risen above the Warseer-wisdoms and realized the potential of stuff like Detachments and Flagellants you're simply going to be in for a tough match.
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