standard of chaos glory

so its looking like some of the more hardcore tournaments around here are taking the stance that DoC BSB's force the re-roll in the event of a failed instability test. i'm not starting this thread to argue the semantics of it (although apparently "can" =/= "may" ), but in light of this, it makes taking a BSB (and having him within 12" of GDs in dicey combats) a huge liability. so i was thinking about the merit of the stubborn banner in this environment.

most of the discussion of this banner centers on pts denial style lists with big nurgling units with infestation and lots of chaff units etc., but i was actually thinking that having the banner in the list would really open up some options with the greater daemons and their particularly aggressive use, as theoretically, taking static combat res out of the equation is likely to change the whole way they can be used. i'm thinking something along the following lines:

bloodthirster w/ toys

herald of khorne
toys

herald of tzeentch
spell breaker

herald of tzeentch bsb
stubborn banner

30 BL's with FC

30 horrors with standard, muso, sorcery if i have the pts?

5 furies

standard BMaynard rare section:

bloodcrusher

bloodcrusher

fiend

fiend

6 flamers (will probably break into 2x3 for the extra drop, but keeping it 6 strong gives me a place to bail the BSB into should things get hairy)

so the idea is that the character assassin thirster can fly in and kill generals, BSBs, level 4s etc. conga reform shenanigans can pretty much guarantee the BSB within 12" so the BT can allocate all attacks to the target (with no fear of enemy static CR) and proceed to eat the unit. BL horde does what it does, chaff keeps the enemy off the horrors while Billy and co. get pts. the horror block is about 800 pts so it has to be protected at all costs. however, it is worth noting that the stubborn flag opens up some dastardly opportunities for conga lining and other stupidity- like reforming 2 wide to face an incoming threat, standard, muso up front keeping the heralds safe, and 4+ ward to soak damage until the thirster/crushers/whatever can come in to save the day. granted the whole mess involves some pretty dirty tricks but nothing illegal, but hey lets face it, they're asking for it by making the BSB re-roll a hindrance when we pay 25 pts for it.

anyway, i've been kicking around the list idea for a while now, what do you guys think?

BEAR IN MIND: the list is built according to ETC rules, hence no MoS (couldn't find a lore i liked only getting 2 spells), 0-1 gifts, and no gifts for the BSB if the banner is 50pts< (the choice for a tzeentch bsb in horror block). i plan to test the list in an upcoming tournament (ETC comp ), and if it pans out, i might take it to crossroads gt instead of the double bletter GUO list hat i'm currently running. if i do that, BSB is still restricted to no gifts but i do get full master of sorcery, so i'm open to lore suggestions for that one (i'm thinking shadow maybe? not sure, i don't use it much).

**** Maynard...

I'm sorry, but I must.. Just can't.. Hold it in anymore..

I don't understand why you put up with it.
I mean: All of it.
Those 0-1 Gift restrictions.. All that arbitrary posh crap that you agree to play by.

And now this.. BSB forcing re-rolls for Instability.. They do realize you're basically better of not taking a BSB then, right? These people are the definition of douches I tell you.

I'm being a Child here. Kind of. I know. And you didn't want this thread to even be about this. But you just put in the final drop for me.. haha

Guess I've been spending too much on Warseer again, or something..

Best of luck beating them, of course, despite having one arm unfairly tighed behind your back. I'll shut up now.

if i could like a post... i would, because i'm in the same boat as daemonreign here.

It's entirely unfair these systems you enter maynard, I don't know why you do it to yourself lol

as for a plan... under the restrictions, is could be a very powerful tool, and it wont be expected that's for sure... but as I have zero experience in this hardcore tourneys you go to... you're probably better getting advice from the likes of LAV_kitsune or somebody else who goes to them

nah, i already know what he'll say- drop the banner completely and use the points for master of sorcery light... and more bloodletters... and less daemonettes....

and actually, i figured the Daemonreign-esque fluff bunnies ( ) were the one's who likely used the banner the most so i'm very interested in their opinions as well. i'm venturing into the unknown here, so please don't think that because you're not a tournament gamer, your insight is invalid. i already know that my own clubmates (all hardcore tournament gamers; our skaven player was just asked to captain the US ETC team after we crushed em in their own team tourney ha ha!) will tell me that its a stupid idea and ask where my sundering banner is, thats why i'm asking you guys

I haven't used the Stubborn-flag predominantly in my games and this is mostly because it's one of the few items that my friends Think is down right nasty when 'comboed' with the other Daemonic traits.

I Think it's a good flag, despite us fluff-bunnies playing games that dwarves those ECT style skirmishes. My Point being that the Stubborn-bubble ought to be even more nasty in that Environment since you can get a much bigger proportion of your force within its circumference.

Your theory on the Stubborn Thirster charging head-on into units that would otherwise pop it with combat rez is exactly how it works of course - but if you want to be really really evil I'd say Spirit Swallower Keeper or Balesword GUO is just a tad more reliable (because they just won't die, period.)

Now that let's you use your combat lord with the same full-frontal carelessness that your opponants will only expect from 1 (max 2) hordes of Bloodletters - so effectively it should give you quite the edge when concidered in a bubble.

And let's not forget that any chaff you keep within that Stubborn "bubble" will work pretty much on the same premise - suddenly one of those single crushers/fiends can not only derail a steadfast block of rank&file troopers, but they'll be quite likely to stand there grinding for a round or two of combat Before going down.

That said, the Great Icon of Despair is still better simply by virtue of being grossely undercosted. Sundering is good too, I'd agree, and probably a bit better in harcore Environments simply because you guys run a lot more math in your heads Before Rolling those Power/Dispel Dice.

In the end, while neiter is invalid, our experiences of Warhammer are from two extreme ends of the spectrum. But it would be cool to see you surprice the crap out of folks with the Stubborn flag... although the only result is that it might be banned next year.

well coming from a more casual player.... well i'll enter tourneys as long as the restrictions arent as harsh.

but, your basically being pushed into finding something new and hasnt been tried before... and well... your on with a winner here... not that it is a sure win list, far from it, but its a list people wont be expecting... dirty dirty tools though.

I would playtest it with a proxy (but i see you've already bought that bloodthirster) before commiting

It seems you really want to play this list, almost determined too... so give it a go

OK, I'll resist my usual raging over silly attempts to squirrel away benefits from daemons, and stick to the issue (although everything DReign said about it holds true for me).

I've been staring at this banner for a while, and just haven't had the heart to do it to my opponents yet. I really believe it is without question the most broken banner in our book, possibly most overpowered item out of the lot. (My advice in 7th to remedy the daemon book was to fix horrors and this banner, and that's it)

The trick to this one is bringing stuff that doesn't die easily. Back come the plaguebearers, in comes a greater daemon (anything but a LoC in my opinion. A self-healing Kipper would be disgusting, as would any version of a GUO or a 'thirster. I've actually played the 'thirster once with this one, and watching him wade through Ironbreakers was absurd)

Here's a list of stuff I reckon rocks with this banner:

- Greater Daemons
- single beasts of Nurgle
- Flesh Hounds
- plaguebearers
- small interference daemonette units

Plus of course the usual backbone of infatry, maybe one 'letter unit, although as seen above I prefer the Nurgle option. This banner essentially turns a tightly-played daemon army's instability into unbreakable, which is pure gold in my books.

-und_ed

This is definately my style! My friends group have been annoying the VC player all the time chanting: "Crumble, crumble yum yum"

How cool would it be to have them play against me the first time thinking I'll die from instability the same way as he crumbled and then telling them I have taken this banner.

It is expensive though at the cost of 10 bloodletters.

In a tournament I'd take this banner and a spirit swallowering Kipper. I should imagine it would completely rock with a plaguebearer tarpit, but honestly anything would be incredible.

Could you put this banner on a herald of slaanesh mounted on a steed in a unit of seekers for look out sir? You could move him around the table away from danger and try to position him where he could do the most good. It should be cheaper than a unit of horrors. Just a thought. Sorry about all the restrictions you have to deal with.

lol, DReign, you crack me up i toally agree with you that the restrictions are rather stupid and reek of someone's personal bitterness in getting their ass handed to them by DoC one too many times, but i think a large part of it is i like to show up with an army built to the ridiculous, arbitrary criteria they've set, and still kick ass. i also look at each new restriction as a challenge, i love coming up with stealthy mean lists that fly under the radar so to speak.

this is great advice, maybe after a few test runs i'll invest in some plague toads to run as beasts of nurgle. they would simply never die with this flag...

i plan on trying each other combat greaters, and i suspect the keeper will be a winner. i'm going to go with the BT first though, as there are 2 extremely good players dominating the local scene right now, one has a brutal all herald list and the other has a mean VC list. i think the BT will do better against both but the kipper is definitely my go to girl.

i've actually had great success with the LD banner with this setup. the thing i like about the horrors is that they can be conga'ed to make a ridiculous tarpit and its a bit safer for the banner. if i decide to include a lot of M10 stuff in army, i might go for the seeker bsb, but as it stands, in the initial test run, durability is the name of the game for me at least.

thanks for the opinions guys, i'm really excited to try this out.

Yeah sorry for going off in a wild rant Maynard. I understand what you're saying and don't get me wrong: I do respect your perspective but the part about the BSB forcing re-rolls just crosses a line with me:

It's one thing to impose more or less arbitrary restrictions. Like the 0-1 Gifts. At least you know what's going on there, and the argument is about whether or not it's called for or not.

But the issue with the BSB.. That's just plain cheating and willfull misunderstanding - if you see what I am getting at here..

So I guess that's what set me off this time. Sorry..

But yeah I get that it's a challange! I think from the little tidbits you've told of your gaming environment I can roughly fathom the 'competative mindset' of you and your friends - and that thrills and cool stuff that comes with that.

The only thing that tints my glasses, so to speak, are all the non-Daemon competative players who take these restrictions as proof that restrictions are needed. The underlying assumption, or accusation really, being that people who play without them arn't really.. you know.. worth being taken seriously.

This is not about You, though.. It's more the general subject getting my flak because stuff i've had thrown at me at places like Warseer.

maynard, would it be possible for you to be my guinea pig and go a soft ld bomb list? Ld bomb lists and then charge into the biggest baddest dude unit and steal their general via Temptator?

Lol, I remember that thread dreign.