Right amount of core

Hey guys,

I am new to this edition of warhammer and also new to Daemons.

Now I am very keen to start buying up my minis and start playing in 2.5k tournies.

Every forum I go on I hear people talk about the infamous 'bloodletter horde' now obviously this is a unit of bloodletter in horde formation. My question is how many bloodletters are in this unit usually in the competative scene, 30? 40?

Also I am very keen to support this unit with a unit of Daemonettes, with Siren Song. So again how many is best for this unit? Horde formation or 5-7 wide?

Lastly I hear alot of negative talk about Plaugebearers, are they worth it?

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Regards
Alark

You got me to thinking, and I found this link (to another website) - I found it amusing.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer/Tactics/Daemons_of_Chaos

or

Daemons tactics

Let me start of by saying, welcome to the forum. I hope your stay will be as wonderful as mine has, and may your depravity know no bounds

The 30-40 Bloodletters is entirely up to you. personally at 2k i play 2 hordes of 40 Bloodletters, at 2.5k they are dropped down to 30 Bloodletters... reasons for this, are mainly i get character greedy. I find having a greater daemon at higher points to be much more valuable than another Bloodletter horde (its also worth noting that after meticulously painting 80+ Bloodletters... i'm a little sick of the model for now) my advice would be if your just starting out... paint some Bloodletters, then a different model, then Bloodletters, then different model, so its spread out and its not a massive grind that puts you off painting

As to the Daemonettes, this can be a tricky one. the reasons for this, the lore than most benefits Bloodletters doesn't really achieve as much with Daemonettes. so its a difficult balance, most daemon players who play in my group play either all Bloodletters and no Daemonettes, or all Daemonettes and no letters. The reasoning behind this is you want your army to tie together so everything can get the best benefit... hmm lets give a break down as to what my logic is as such:

2 horde of Bloodletters. you could put a small unit of Daemonettes in, lets say 120, and 30 if you have unit upgrades, you need a herald in there, with siren song, that's 265 points... for one, albeit useful, tool. also there is the argument about sacrificing hero's equipment to fit the herald in (that will most likely die as soon as siren song is used)

1 horde of Bloodletters, 1 horde of Daemonettes. question, what lore do you use? use light which benefits Bloodletters immensely, but only nettes marginally? or use shadow which is the best lore for Daemonettes, but only has a little effect on the ability of Bloodletters... your in a kind of grey area, where nothing is optimum and tooled correctly. of course you could take 2 HoTz... with gear, your looking at 590 which while under the limit, puts a lot of points in 4 characters, two of whom will die in the first round of combat. Also while you can afford a bsb, you cant afford a banner for it.

2 hordes of Daemonettes, now w're talking, don't have to compromise on the lore don't have to compromise on hero points, easy access to siren song, the only problem is that Daemonettes aren't as good in combat as Bloodletters... so you're compromising on the best core unit...

The best use I've seen, is through MSU armies, typically 1 of each herald and they can pick what they want, you don't have massive horde to worry about picking the right lore and you get access to what you want.

The other option is to take a Keeper of secrets and be unusual and don't take spirit swallower, take siren song

Plaguebearers are probably our best anvil in our book, though the locus isn't as powerful as it once were, very few units have flaming attacks so you are still gaining that extra bit of a save... and the toughness is awesome for core troops. They don't however have the killing power of Daemonnettes or Bloodletters. With our army, I've found it to be very kill or be killed

Hope this helped, take this advice with a pinch of salt, this is from my own personal experience and knowledge gain... I don't have hard numbers to back it up.

As for the links Grendal Posted, the 1D4chan one sucks, the information is outdated and doesn't for the most part list why a unit is bad. In some cases the information they provide is just plain wrong.

here, i'll give you a little taster

This give the impression that if you have spare points, this would be a top choice for your army, apparently as good as skulltaker, and well worth the points. It doesn't mention that, without pretty much a mono nurgle army he's a bit expensive and pointless in some cases

Apparently is a herald now? gives no mention of the ability that they are taken for (generating power dice) which daemons have few options of doing so. randomly generates a bound spell... right, well this doesn't tell you that you pick the lore, gain the lore attribute if possible, and the way bounds spells are now, why wouldn't this be worth it? you have with this limited access to 56 spells, who generates extra powerdice so you can face off against those magic heavy lists. and did i mention the blue scribes are dirt cheap?

Those are just two that caught my eye... because of those, I just wouldn't trust the sight at all.

Rant over lol

A hoarde of bloodletters.. 40ish + herald will wreck a noob's day. A veteran player with re-directors will keep you chasing your own tail all game.

Some people will tell you plague bearers are great.. they are deluded. I use a block of them + herald on palanquin, they suck and slowly die. When they aren't slowly dying they are evaporating to nasty initiative test spells. T4 is not what it used to be.

A hoarde of daemonettes with siren song will eat anything if you cast the right spells on them =). I think the Hoarde of letters dont need the magic buffs, so buff the daemonettes.

hehe, magic never hurts colonel which is the problem between choosing

If a horde of Bloodletters will get redirected, wont a horde of Daemonettes? yes they have siren song... but its not going to help in later game... Daemonettes don't have the killing power a Bloodletters do, but they have a far better locus, so as long as you can keep that herald alive your golden. and Daemonettes have a tendency to fall apart without a herald where Bloodletters can do ok without one

Your right about the Plaguebearers though... but they are still the best anvil unit we have, but like I said before, its kill or be killed with our army. What I'm saying, is that they are our best anvil unit, but points are better spent elsewhere.

Thank you for the welcome and all the advice.

Ill probably pick up 40 bloodletters for now then and ditch daemonettes. I was leaning towards nets for support/flank charges, what other units fill this role well?

Also is a herald of Khorne worth it? And is he mainly the armys BSB?

Also thank you for providing the links.

One question though, could I not just take Lore of Beasts and then have the ability to buff both units equally or is that just dumb? Plus one to T/S sounds good but no where as cool as mindrazor or the light spells.

Also just out of curiosity could anyone provide a link to a 'staple/common build' for a 2.5k list?

Regards
Alark

Support/Flank Chargers:
Hounds - They aren't as good as they we're but they still chew most things, I personally think of them as a fast unit of tougher bloodletters with more survivability
Bloodcrushers - These are brilliant... tough as nails. The only problem is that they suffer from low wounds, so if you're unlucky with saves, that's a lot of points lost. I personally use 2 single models with banners. they make excellent flank chargers, and plow through most chaff. On one occassion I charged a 5 man unit of ungor raiders, killed the unit, made the 40 man bestigor fail its panic test... basically won me the game. My friend however played 6 Bloodcrushers, with a herald, and skulltaker, its a big unit, that runs through most things... but I've seen it strugle with the typical deathstar problems. The point is, they are very versatile.
Fiends - I will get murdered on this forum if i don't mention these. They are as versatile as bloodcrushers, cheaper, have 1 more wound, but a lack of armour save... they are normally included in every competitive daemon list

BSB:
Herald of Khorne, 3+ armour save on top of the the normal 5++, the problem lies in the fact you want to get Bloodletters into combat, means he can bite the dust early in game

Herald of Tzeentch, He's Squishy so you don't want to get him into combat, give him wings, or sit him with flamers if you think he will get picked of with shooting. I use him as my bsb quite often because a 4++ is pretty decent

Herald of Nurgle, used to be your go to bsb in 7th, because even though you was going into combat, they just dont die... now they die... so pass

Herald of Slaanesh, Don't... just don't. Unless you tool them up so they can't be hurt (costs a lot of points) then they still suffer from the same flaw as Bloodletters, you want them in combat

Lore:
You could use Lore of Beasts, but it's generally not that good for Daemons, because its centered around combat characters, granted our heralds will do well, but where as most other armies can feature 2-3 lord choices, we don't have that luxury, and keeper and bloodthirster don't need buffing from beasts to win combat easily, maybe if you take GUO or Lord of Change... not many people expect a Lord of change running in and butchering a unit. And a GUO with balesword getting buffed with savage beasts of horros is stupidly good against multiple wound units.
But, like you said, light has Birona's which when cast on a horde of bloodletters will run through pretty much anything, likewise Mindrazor will do a similar effect to Daemonettes. where as wildform will just make both units slightly better. they both need toughness, but the bloodletters are normally ok with their base strength.

Staple List:
Just have a look on the army list section for what is generally taken. but to give you a head start... usually:

Greater Daemon of some sort

HoTz - MoS, Spellbreaker/Winged Horror
HoK - AoK, FSB (number appropriately for Bloodletter unit)
HoS - Siren Song, Torment Blade (number appropriately for Daemonette unit)

Bloodletters or Daemonettes. Hordes... minimum of 2 units
Furies for redirecting, light chaff hunting, lone wizard hunting

Hounds. if you have points

Rare
Flamers. You need these, simple.
Fiends. Run as two units of 1, or a big unit of 6 if using furies for redirectors.
Bloodcrushers. If you have points left over for spare chaff hunters. People don't bring these in big units, and they aren't a typical staple... but I like them too much

my advice is to take the tournies you will be attending and look at their comp packs. there's no reason to go out and buy 2 hordes of 40 bloodletters and 12 flamers if you're never going to be allowed to use them. this is also why i would suggest at least one unit of plaguebearers, the herald of nurgle is often the best place for one of our expnsive magic flags, if your local tourneys comp gifts to 0-1 or restrict BSB's to flags or gifts.

Very good point maynard.

This is maynard, he's one of our more hardcore players, he goes to tournaments that I wouldn't even consider attending. Mainly because I don't agree with the rules of the tourneys he attends, I find them to unfairly restrict daemons because we were far too overpowered back in 7th.

But anyway, like he suggested, find out what restrictions are in place before running off and spending money like a millionaire thats got a day to live. Restrictions matter when first starting a new army if your a competitive player.

Will you be a player that will attend most tournaments he can, or will you be more of a casual player that will go to them if and when he chooses and play most games between friends.

I myself am a more casual player, but that isn't to say i Don't go to tournaments. My local gaming group is pretty intense when it comes to lists so I have to be at least a little bit competitive.

BTW, if you get chance, look up brother maynards thread in the battle reports section, his videos are very easy to watch and offer some great insight into the modern day Daemons

40 Bloodletters is a good start.

Yes a Herald of Khorne is an optimal choice.

Lore of Beasts is a good lore. You will pick the lore that best fills your needs. There are 3-4 lores that work well with Daemons.

I prefer to use Mindrazor on my Daemonettes though.

Just a quick chime in with Dimetri - don't overlooko the Lore of Beasts.

It's actually better for daemonettes than shadow imo - not because the spells are necessarily better (it's debatable, although shadow does a bit more) but because you're casting with a level 2, making two out of the three important shadow spells very risky to cast (Namely occam's and the toughness debuff). Beasts you're going to be throwing three dice at a relatively reliable Wyssan's, or a potentially devastating Savage Beast of Horros, as well as the horribly effective Curse of anraheir (-1 to hit is a great penalty, but it becomes a sickening spell with the extra-dangerous-terrain combined with Siren Song)

The nice thing is that Beasts does a lot for all our infantry, and is useful in all turns. I can often drag out my opponent's scroll in turn #1, which is something I cannot do with Light or Shadow.

-und_ed

Sadly my pc has broken so i am reading/posting on a smartphone, otherwise I would quote and thank every one personally for the great advice! This place seems like a really nice forum with active players and members. So thanks to everyone

There seems like alot of competition for our rare slot, Im currently leaning towards fiends over bloodcrushers for the simple fact that they have 2 wounds and other Monster Cav have 3 like Mournfangs/demis. Also flamers are insane.. I know everyone already knows this but coming from a new players eyes they seem outstanding.

Are any of our special units good?

Im keen on trying out some plaugebearers now, but gunna hold off till the plastice ones come out.

Im gunna watch those battle report videos, hopefully I will be able to pick up a trick or two.

Regards
Alark

Special Units:
I'd rate them as such, by descending order:
1 - Nurglings. Flexible, versatile, unique, probably a Place for them in every list.
2 - FleshHounds. Durable, pretty hard-hitting. Not as good as in 7th Ed though..
3 - Seekers. You need some skills to use these, and even so there's better alternatives to choose from depending on what you want to accomplish. The one thing they can do is deliver a Siren Song Herald very quickly to some favorable spot.
4 - Screamers. The cost too much, die too easily, and don't do enough damage. Just a problematic unit from start to finnish in my opinion. I've seen players (ask Und_ed for example) use them in very specific lists with success - but I don't Think I have seen even a single Competative List featuring Screamers in 8th Edition.

And yes, this Forum rocks. It's the best. And don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Flamers are an absolute godsend in our army. They're our only points-effective shooting (screamers just don't cut it), and being skirmishers they get exactly where needed every time. They're also very resilient, being 2-wounder, T4 skirmishers with a daemonic Ward.

The only word of warning is not to rely on the non-daemonic talk about flamers - you will be horribly disappointed. Flamers are expensive for the shooting they put out, slightly less effective points-per-kill than leadbelchers (and how many leadbelchers do you see around?). To truly get the most out of flamers, you need to make use of their versatility - namely their excellent (despite WS2) combat stats. 2 attacks, S5 flaming, on skirmishing support troops - use 'em, love 'em.

-und_ed