Are horrors worth it?, And related core questions

[Rageaholic]

I'm still in the process of assembling, planning and painting my Daemons. I'm probably going to get a good size block of each core at some point but I'm wondering if they are all worthwhile.

Bloodletters and plaguebearers seem to be a no-brainer. They have clear roles that they excell at.
But deamonettes and horrors I'm not so sure. I was thinking deamonettes looked like they were only worth it for the heralds ability to take siren song, but then I realised they have 2 attacks (doh) so they might be worthwhile.

But horrors...is the magic worth them being so bad in combat? I was thinking of using around 20 as a bunker for my HoT, but I'm starting to wonder if they might be better exchanged for more bloodletters and let my HoT take his chances with LoS and ward save. Or sticking him on a disc and using mobility and the WS to protect him.
They just seem to lack a role somehow. In small (1-1.5k) games they might be worth it as a unit of 20 that will make a tough bunker, but in games where I'll likely take a GD I'd probably want to have enough bodies to make them a L4. But then were talking about a 500 point unit, almost enough to pay for a LoC.

So, do you use them? How do you use them? How many do you use?

[DaemonReign]

Clearly Horrors were designed/costed around the idea of generating Power Dice in the manner that was the case in 7th Edition. That was their Power - the fact that you could get a Power Pool in the region of 30-40 Dice with the old system (if going Tzeentch Heavy).

In 8th, conversely, they basically compete with your better casters when it comes to Power Dice, and add to this the fact that the new BRB Lores are designed with the 'new magic phase' in mind where-as the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch isn't. Surely the casting values in that Lore are too low across the board, and Bolt of Change is still nasty in certain situations - but Tzeentch Firestorm, on the other hand, would really need to rival Dweller's/Purple Sun (or at least Final Transformation) in order for Horrors to really bring something worthwhile in the magic phase.

You can still use them. I agree with you though they are overcosted presently and most of the time end up performing as Empire Militia costing about triple what they should with no tangible benefit except a conditional 4+ Wardsave.

And yes Daemonettes, Before you factor in Siren Song, are probably the second step up from the bottom - so to speak - against most opponants. Funny thing though: Daemonettes tend to slaughter Bloodletters in my experience.. haha

[und_ed]

Daemonettes are a good counter to many elven nightmares (White Lions in particular, Witch-elves for certain) that would otherwise tear a massive hole in bloodletters before they even get to swing. They're not the raw beatsticks bloodletters are, but they've got their place.

Horrors are far more tricky. They struggle to justify their points, but can make a useful backup holding block while providing a level 3 (or 4 if you must) if you decide not to take a greater daemon (or want a greater without magic, say a level 1 something or a 'thirster). They're a niche case for sure, and most of the time I stick with letting my Tz Herald rely on his ward and 4+ LoS, but every now and then a horror block can squeeze it's way in.

-und_ed

[Noisy Assassin]

As stated, Daemonettes are great against certain opponents, HE and other Daemons among them. And Siren Song is just stupid good. Throw in some buffs and you're good to go.

Horrors on the other hand are much more situational and often just don't bring anything all that special to a list. Although many people like them for the ability to get a lvl 4 for dispelling purposes.

[JonathanC]

Well I use Horrors pretty much every game and so I can definitevly say they may be worth it.

First off, unless you have a HoT (which clearly you do) then I probably wouldn't bother taking them at all, but since an HoT is pretty much an auto-include for any mixed list I guess thats a moot point. This doesn't mean you need to take a HoT for every unit of Horrors though if you include more than one in your army. Taking lots of units gives you more channel attempts after all and the ability to use your magic phase as an additional shooting phase by throwing a single dice at Flickering Fire with every unit.

If you want them purely as a bunker, just take 10ish. Maybe add a banner for Blood & Glory purposes and a musician for swift reforms. If you want a unit that will act as an anvil and do some casting and dispeling take at least 28 so they get the Bolt of Change spell. Unless going mono-Tzeentch I wouldn't bother taking enough for a level 4 unit as you won't be using the Tzeentch's Firestorm that often and its not worth the extra points for the extra +1 to cast/dispel over a level 3. Anything in between those sizes will usually give you a level 2 unit, but the Gift of Chaos spell they get for being level 2 is so unreliable its not worth taking a unit beyond level 1 unless going to at least level 3.

When taking larger units, you have to start thinking about what Lore your HoT has as he will probably want to augment them a bit when they inevetably reach combat (you can't tie up that many points in one unit and realitically expect it to never see hand to hand). Light and Life are quite popular and will give varying degrees of protection, but won't help your Horrors kill enemy troops much. More useful will be Beasts and Shadow, since they contain spells that will both protect the Horrors and enhance their kill power in a more menaingful way against most opponents. Special mention should go to Wyssans Wildform here, which gives Horrors a statline slightly better than Plaguebearers when cast on them. Also, while their basic statline is poor by Daemons standard, you should remember it is average by the standards of many other armies you will face (although your unit will cost a lot more).

I wouldn't worry about having more spells than you can cast per magic phase - you often get that just by taking a lone HoT with MoS alone. I find its more important to have the right spell for the right situation. Looking at the spells Horrors have available, Flickering Fire is usually good and occaisionally capable of acheiving amazing things, while Bolt of Change is the same but better, easily capable of smashing Knights and monsters. Tzeentch's Firestorm I would only use if Bolt got dispelled or was out of range, while Gift of Chaos I usually only consider if I have at least 3 targets in range and some of them are relatively unarmoured. Like Flickering Fire it can do a lot but often doesn't (at least for me). Only other time I would use it is when locked in combat where mone of the other Horror's spells are usable.

Hope this all helps.

[Grendel]

I only skimmed what was read above - so disregard if already mentioned- but don't forget the Daemonettes that do have ASF *AND* a higher Init than opponents get to re-roll "hits" as per the Big Red Book.

Especially T3 units, like Empire infantry and most VC, we *should* generate hits and wounds.

[DaemonReign]

That's true Grendel.. and this is nitpicking over here but you actually only have to have equal Initiative as your opponant in order to get those Re-rolls with ASF.

Daemonettes vs T3 opponants can be quite effective.. They're only wounding on 4+ though. As soon as opponant has T4 or any saves Worth the mention Daemonettes start to struggle.. Unless you mindrazor them but hell anything is wicked with mindrazor really..

[God of war]

I stopped using horrors in 8th. Mainly because I have 2 MoS HoT who suck up all the dice. I bunker them in a unit of flamers each. They perform well and I keep being amazed at how easy it is to keep them safe (apart from blowing them up myself of course )

[Dimetri1]

When 8th first started I was using a big block of horrors. As time went on I now use 10-0.

[Finnigan2004]

The only times that I've found them to be worth it is when I'm not using other casters to suck up magic dice. Otherwise, your best bet is using our other core troops. As for daemonettes, I've only seen them being worth it when I use a caster who synergizes well with them-- in particular, one who can buff them with lore of shadow.

[Rageaholic]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.
Looks like I'll be giving my list a rethink.
I'm stuck between running 10 horrors as a bunker for my HoT. Sticking my HoT in a unit of flamers (but I don't like how close to losing LoS that will leave me) or trying something else like leaving my HoT bunkerless.
Either way I'm pretty decided that a unit of 20 is too many points as all they will do is avoid combat and try and 1 dice Flames every turn.

Looks like I'll be trading my unopened box in for something else, more BL probably.