6th ed. for daemons, what does it mean for us.

Yeah! The few guys that still actively play this army are on the internet complaining about things they don’t like… Nooooooooooo!

Screamers are going to be the big winners here. No more, “I moved that rhino 6.01,”. If they can hit walkers on a normal WS, I’ll take a full spread.

Not to rain on your parade, but while the random charge range is theoretically good for assault armies, there's a few other changes that are not so good.

Fleet does NOT allow you to run and assault. It allows to reroll the run or charge dice.

Unsaved wounds are allocated on the closest models, and the charge dice are rolled AFTER the enemy has had a chance to shoot you. Therefore we will keep being "pushed back", both in opponent's shooting phase and in our own assault phase.

Rapid fire is getting better - works at full range even when moving. Vehicles can move and fire weapons they previously could not at BS1. Same goes for stunned dreadnoughts.

Repeated glances kill vehicles. That's good for many armies, but other than bolts, we don't really have weapons that can glance reliably.

Power weapons are AP3. Bloodletters and bloodcrushers are now going to be bitchslapped by terminators and anything else with 2+ save.

On the brighter side, we do get to challenge and sergeants seem to be treated like characters (so they can be killed off).

Frankly, in order to stay afloat, I see the best daemon lists in 6ed being composed of horror bolt spam with as many flying monsters as one can fit, with fiends, flamers and hounds or seekers in support.

But the most action daemons will see now will be as allies to CSM. As someone else said - can't wait for the next codex... Good thing I have loads of Chaos Marines.

Thanks for clearing some of that up for me then. I feel better.

It is for sure that the Strength is doubled and not just doubled to 10?

I haven't read the book but I would be surprised if it isn't capped at 10 as that is a general rule for all characteristics. Still, it sounds like the Smash attacks will be optional so if you have a Thirster with Unholy Might you could just use his regular strength of 8 (9 on the charge) and still retain all your attacks. Also, DP's won't need to buy Unholy Might to help them against vehicles as their strength doubles to 10 anyway.

From what I've read on various forums it looks like Daemons will be left in roughly the same place they are now to me, perhaps marginally improved (mainly due to Fear and less-risky deep striking, plus vehicles being a bit easier to deal with). Some units may get a bit worse, but others should get better to compensate. Anyway, I'm refusing to get worried until I have got the book in my hands and maybe played a game or two.

One thing to consider for anyone interested in fielding allies is that the starter box will feature CSM vs DA, giving us a decent themed allied contingent for our Daemon armies (the DA models could easily be converted into more Chaos Marines by removing their chapter icons and adding some spikes to them).

@ thebringeroftruth , chill man we are allowed to be disappointed and excited about the new book.

I was wondering about that too FKB. half the attacks for a BT to go from S 9 to 10 is pretty meh , but 9 to 18 would be nice.

Normally the 40K section is kinda dead on the site I guess we have a lot to do now. Big game changes to little stuff like FNP becoming 5+ but working vs power weapons.

The other side of the coin to is the FAQ , hope it comes out same day as the book, I mean it would not be hard to change hell blade to ap 2 ( or crushers to cav *drool*) so we still only have half the story. My guess is they will still be on the weaker side of 40K armies , but hey at least we get to have fun finding out. If all else fails can;t be much worse of then 5th and we could always just play chaos(space marines) daemons.

Also depending on the cost com relay might be an auto include. place it near an objective drop some PB on it and start re-rolling the reserve rolls the rest of the game.

Just had another thought, If we ally with CSM who are battle brothers we can use special rules wargear etc.. Does that mean we could start with an Icon on the table and DS in off it ? if we can find an icon unit with scout we could be set.

Yeah, we will need to see the FAQs too, not just the rulebook, for stuff like icons working between codices. I'm a bit doubtful that hellblades will get a special AP value though.

Still, I'd love to be proven wrong...

One thing I'm wondering, have base sizes been somehow standardized? So can I still use my square based daemons from fantasy in 40k?

That has always been a question Horus the official ruling(was) is use the base it cam with so square bases are ok. It normally does not make a difference , but it is nice to have some of the circle bases around just to stop arguments. I had a guy get pissed he was out of charge range " because" I was on a square base. Swapped it for a circle and he was farther away, stopped the argument with minimal effort. There is always the grandfather clause if all else fails. Have you seen the really old blood thirsters ?

As ambiguous and pointless as before, so the squares are safe.

Frankly though, you're better off putting them on round bases, since while they're on movement trays the shape of the base doesn't really matter...

well ive got my copy of the rulebook!, and i def like what i see, its good stuff. will have to read it atleast a couple more times and try to get some test games to be sure of course. all of sudden ive become infused with chaotic power to make army lists over and over again with the models i have just to see the changes!! havent felt like that since the 2nd ed chaos marine dex and the chaos marine 3.5 dex

Strength doubles to 10 at most. Saw it in the rulebook today. I do not like that.

I would have been very surprised if it said anything different - all stats have been capped at 10 in all circumstances for the last few editions now, both in fantasy and 40k. With the Bloodthirster being S8 on the charge (9 with Might) it just means you don't need to bother giving up half his attacks to get nearly max strength anyway. OK, you don't get the re-roll for amrour penetration, but since you can glance most vehicles to death quite easily in combat now that doesn't matter much.

As for the bases, I find its much easier to use squares in 40k than it is rounds in Warhammer. Sure you can put them on movement trays, but that only works for infantry really and its not much help in determining how many models get hit by templates when the bases have no corners.....

BTW - has anyone noticed in the Daemon FAQ Rending Claws count as 2 close combat weapons with the rending special rule. I could be wrong, but this makes it seem like all Daemons with Rending Claws get an extra attack for having 2 close combat weapons, which would mean Daemonettes have 4 Attacks each now.

The changes to Slow and Purposeful are also interesting, some boosts and nerfs for Nurgle Daemons at the same time.

Read the full FAQ entry. It says the bonus attack is already included in the daemon's profile. I was also hoping daemonettes got a bit of a boost with defensive grenades working when they're shot, but they could let that actually happen and changed the rule for Aura of Acquiescence to have the same effect as before without any of the new perks of grenades.

I'm still in two minds on this new edition and how it affects daemons. Frankly, I still see 40k as a shooty game. Random charges seem like a boon but overwatch and wound allocation on the closest models to the enemy hurt daemons a LOT. And this new Fear rule is a joke, since it doesn't work on the units we needed to kill anyway (except regular chaos marines and some eldar, but they're all LD10). In the last few months my only troop choices have been 5 horror squads with bolt, and I don't think this will change until a new codex comes out, and here's why:

Bloodletters - while the charge range is buffed a bit (average of 7"), the AP3 nerf, furious charge nerf (it only increase S now, I remains 4), overwatch will hurt like hell (only 5++ save); overall I'd say they'll fare worse now, especially if terminator armies start cropping up
Daemonettes - rending still works vs terminators(yay), threat range is now 6+2d6 with rerolls, but I'm not sure that's better than the old 6+d6+6 since overwatch means quite a few will die before they make it in
Plaguebearers - FNP works vs power weapons, but is only 5+; they can move a full 6" and charge 2d6, but they cannot run - this means they'll be in much more pain when they arrive if blast markers look their way; threat range has increased but they still suck in combat vs anything decent unless you play Epidemius; overall they're still meh to me, they may take objectives but they don't kill anyone (I don't play Epidemius lists)
Horrors - they actually got a buff - overwatch means they can no longer be easily dispatched by a bunch of guardsmen, and even if charged by tougher units, they might still kill one or two more models; the changes in vehicle damage should also lead to more frequent vehicle kills simply through loads of glances with their bolt

So in conclusion - keep on spamming bolts. I think my latest list experiment will become my usual list in the coming months, until the new Chaos Marine codex comes out: 6 Horror squads w bolt, a thirster, 3 princes, 6 crushers w fury and 6 fiends w might. Now, if only I could find the points for wings...

Epidemius lists with flying princes with noxious touch have become even better. Maybe when the plastic plaguebearers are released I'll try playing them too...

This made me furious when I read it as I have come up against a great many terminator forces in the past. That my bloodletters are no longer effective against terminator armour just adds a nail to the coffin that will be 6th ed. for me. Even worse are the number of Storm Shield Terminators which will pop up with the new rules for wound allocation.

Also, the Bloodthirster is supposed to be a nigh-unstoppable engine of destruction who could tear Land Raiders to shreds....something I've enjoyed immensely. Now they only have a 50% chance to even Glance-to-Penetrate a Land Raider if they cut their attacks in half to get maxed to 10. Even less of a chance if they use their normal strength.

Damn bastards.