4000pts vs 'New' Empire, Experimental DoC Army

Introduction:
This, to my knowledge, is the first full-scale 'play-test' of the little re-write of Daemons of Chaos for Warhammer Fantasy that me and some dear collegues have been tinkering with for about a year now. For random lurkers who are interested the latest PDF-version of of this revision can also be found HERE (at the top of the page).

I will try to cover the relevant 'changes' we've made in the actual report when-ever relevant, but the full scope can only be acquired by doing some studying of your own.

Our only intentional detour from 'Official Rules' was the decision to play a BattleLine Scenario - as we did not want any 'one time' Victory Conditions to cloud up the evaluations of all the new stuff.

This will be a report very heavy on both text and pictures, and since we got started a bit later in the day than we had planned toward the end it was getting pretty dark (and cold! Just two celcius above freezing for the last few turns actually..) so - alas - some pictures will leave you wanting for more I reckon.

It should also be noted that my opponant was trying out his new Empire Book (Cruddace's creation) for the first time, and that we were both sort of 'comped' in the sense that neither of us brought anything we don't have Painted.
- This essentially meant that my Daemon Army did not feature any of the Rare Choices we've added in our re-write, while my Empire friend had no Hurricaniums, Luminarks, or DemiGryphs, as it turned out he also neglected to bring any WitchHunters - and [as always in my group] 'No Special Characters' were allowed.

Whether or not these 'comps' were favorable to any one side is hard to say, but I'd venture to guess that they were actually in favor of the Daemons (especially the 'old-habit' ban on Special Characters actually).

Please concider yourself hereby invited to take some time now to either just enjoy this report, or join me in trying to evaluate what-ever 'results' can actually be derived from all this!
Happy reading folks!
/DaemonReign
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Scenario: BattleLine, 'opponant known at listbuilding' (closed lists, random terrain).
Game Size: 4000pts
Table Dimensions: ~10 feet by 4 feet
Synopsis: Two rather compact close combat armies dishing it out in an even fight right down to the very last combat round of Turn 6.

The Army Lists:

THE EMPIRE

THE DAEMONS OF CHAOS

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THE BATTLE: [Deployment, Terrain, Overview]

Terrain: Bottom left/center: Khemrian Quicksand, left/bottom: Skree Slope, top left corner: Mysterious Forrest and Anvil of Vaul, top right corner: Encampment of Destruction with Haunted Mansion, Ghost Fence and Idol of Gork, right center: Mysterious River (2 bridges, 1 crossing), Building.
Notation: The Wall at the bottom of the above picture symbolizes the edge of the battlefield.

Deployment in Detail, The Empire:

The Inner Circle Knights deployed on the far flank, facing the Skree Slope on the other side of the field. We see the Great Cannon behind the knights, and just across the river the other two Warmachines were also deployed (out of shot). The little green hedges represent the table edge.


The Steamtank and the unit of Halberdiers deployed aligned on the bridge, the Hellblaster and Rocket Battery are obscured by the Building in this picture.


The Horde of Greatswords and its two detachments were deployed across the River-crossing, the left detachment standing just by the Ghost Fence of the Haunted Mansion.

Deployment in Detail, The Daemons of Chaos:


The Daemon Prince and Herald of Tzeentch deployed ontop of the Anvil of Vaul, it was decided that the 'circle' itself was cleared of Forrest.


In the center (facing the Greatswords!) I deployed the Bloodletters and Daemonettes. The Seekers were also deployed here (prior to Vanguard moves) which was just a very stupid move on my part (I should have deployed them in the forrest on the far flank and vanguarded myself out of the trees!).


On the other flank we can see my Bloodcrushers in the corner between the Skree Slope and the Khemrian Quicksand (Swamp) - behind which hides the Bloodthirster. Shrouded in shadow on the side of the Crushers is one unit of Furies, while the other unit of Furies is plainly visible in the middle of the picture. Later on, my two Nurglings also deployed right 'behind' the smaller of the two bridges (the wooden one) hiding from Line of Sight of the Hellblaster.

TURN 1 (Empire)

Using my Vanguard move my Seekers began their attempt to circle the enemy's lines from the ridiculously stupid starting-position I'd given them (I can only blame the Whisky..)


Empire had choosen sides and also got First Turn. In the Magic Phase he got 7 dice +1 Channel (8) while I had 5 DD. He started by rolling '15' for Banishment on my Seekers, and I let it go through because he still had more PD left than I had DD. Banishment promptly killed 7 of the Seekers (so much for playtesting them).


Continuing his first Magic Phase the LvL 4 (seen in this picture) got Irresistable Force through on another Banishment, which killed one more Seeker (haha) while the Miscast caused a S6 Hit on every channeling model in his Army: Every Warriorpriest and also the LvL 4 was wounded (HAHA!). [edit] It should be noted, of course, that the first Banishment came from the War Altar..


In the Shooting Phase, his Great Cannon promptly blew up as it aimed for my Bloothirster hiding behind the Crushers. The Rocket Battery aimed for the Bloodletters, but rolled up 1 Template and scattered off. The Steamtank fired its gun on the Daemonettes but overshot and only killed one of them, while the Hellblaster had nothing within range to shoot at.


The Steamtank rolled up the bridge followed by the Halberdiers, while the Inner Circle Knights on the flank shuffled forward. In this picture we also spot my Scouting Nurglings at the foot of the smaller bridge.


The GreatSwords and their 2 Detachments of Swordsmen shuffled forward at moderate pace..

DAEMONS TURN 1


My all-but-destroyed unit of Seekers charged one of the Detachments to the Greatsword-unit. Perhaps another stupid decision on my part, but I had sort of given up on them (might have been able to use them in later turns, whatever..).


My Thirster exposed himself in order to close the distance with the Steamtank crossing the big bridge, while the Bloodcrushers shuffled forward toward the Knights. One unit of Furies jumped up behind the house looking straight into the barrels of the Hellblaster, while the other unit is obscured by shadows between the IC Knights and the swamp. The Nurglings move up on the small bridge so as to charge the Hellblaster in the next turn.


Bloodletters marched 10" forward, Daemonettes following. We also spot the Daemon Prince having jumped into the 'courtyard' of the Haunted Mansion.


In our group we have a 'houserule' that basically says that 'flat' tops of buildings are separate sections of the building in question - usually meaning that a Warmachine can be deployed at the top such a building while a unit may also reside inside the building. This also means that Flyers treat such 'flat spaces' as open ground - which is why my Herald of Tzeentch could position himself as such..


In my Magic Phase I get 8 Power Dice against 5 Dispel Dice. I six-dice Tzeentch Firestorm on the GreatSword-unit and score a 3 for Strength (Tzeentch Firestorm, 18+, D6S Flaming Hit on every model in unit, 1 Horror per 3 wounds caused) - which kills the (wounded) Warrior Priest and wounds the Captain. I score a total of 17 wounds and that spawns the Horrors you see in the picture above. The Panic Test is passed.
The Miscast result renders my Herald a Level '0' Wizard.


The Seekers are completely butchered in combat, killing 3 Swordsmen.

EMPIRE TURN 2
* Steamtank 'Missfires' when loading Steampoints.


Empire gets 5 Power Dice versus my 3 Dispel Dice. He starts by casting Burning Gaze on the Daemon Prince but only scores 1 wound (3 hits!) and I get the 5+ Wardsave up. He continues with successfully casting Birona's Timewarp and Shield of Faith on the GreatSword-unit (as I had tried to dispel the Burning Gaze).


The Inner Circle Knights basically stays put.


As we see in this picture the Steamtank has rolled further up the bridge, followed by Halberdiers, and has turned toward the Bloodthirster to fire its gun. Half a turn later my opponant started looking confused.. He had appearantly made a mistake there which is why in later pictures the Steamtank will still be facing forward.


The Hellblaster fires 12 shots, hitting the Bloodthirster with 3 shots and 1 wound going through the Wardsave. The Steamtank made an appearantly 'illegal' shot at the Bloodthirster but missed it. The Hellstorm once more rolled up 1 Template and also scattered off target (Bloodletters) a second time.


Overview at the end of Empire's Turn 2.

DAEMONS TURN 2


The Bloodthirster charged the Steamtank, which has not been placed in its proper facing yet in this picture.


Nurglings charges the Hellblaster, while the 2 units of Furies set themselves up to catch the Engineer and Rocket Battery in the next turn.


Bloodcrushers charge the Inner Circle Knights, it was a very long charge but I rolled high enough so that I actually did not need Icon of Endless War to close the distance.


Bloodletters charge the GreatSwords, Daemon Prince and Herald of Tzeentch combo-charge the Detachment of Swordsmen that finnished off the Seekers earlier.

Close Combat:
Bloodletters score 16 wounds in total on GreatSwords. GreatSwords score 20 wounds back but I pass 11(!) wardsaves so only 9 casualties are removed. I win combat but he is Stubborn. He also 'counter-charged' with his free Detachment and since this was an 'out of phase' action we ruled that Siren Song could not be activated to derail that charge [this is something we need to look more closely at, because Empire Detachments have not been duly taken into account in the new mechanic for Siren Song!].

Herald of Tzeentch and Daemon Prince kill 4 Swordsmen and take no wounds in return. The Bloodthirster manages to do 2 wounds on the Steamtank while the Nurglings kill 1 crewman on the Hellblaster.

The Grandmaster riding with the Inner Knights issues a challange and I accept with Champion. The Grandmaster does 2 wounds to my Champ and I do none back.
Bloodcrushers kill 6 Knights in total, armoursaving everything that's thrown back at them. Inner Circle Knights roll 'snake-eyes' for Break Test at -6 CR.

EMPIRE TURN 3

Realizing his Engineer was stuck in a bad place, he tried all sorts of alternatives for getting out of my charge-arch, finally giving up as we see in the second one of these pictures.


He charges in his WarAltar and connects with my Bloodletters corner-to-corner - killing one Bloodletter with his Impact Hits.


In his Magic Phase he casts Hammer of Sigmar on the Greatswords, followed by Shield of Faith, followed by Speed of Light. I was saving all my dice to Dispel Birona's Timewarp but he rolls high enough so that I fail this as well - in other words, the GreatSwords were quite buffed up in this Turn!
In Close Combat the GreatSwords kill 9 Bloodletters, and 3 GreatSwords die in return. I direct 3 attacks on the Arch Lector and score 2 Killing Blows - killing him.
I lose combat by -12 CR and 11 Bloodletters melt away.
The Daemon Prince and Herald of Tzeentch kill 5 more Swordsmen.


My Daemonettes are finally charged by the Spearmen, and this picture depicts my quite remarkable To Wound rolls in that combat (needing 4's).
My Herald of Slaanesh and the Captain BSB began fighting a challange without wounding each other. I am 'Stubborn' for first Break Test thanks to flag but still manage to take 2 wounds from Instability (losing 5 Daemonettes in total).


The Spearmen promptly reforms into Horde-formation...


Grandmaster manages to finally kill the Champ in the Challange (doing 4 over-wounds) but the Knights themselves can't touch the Bloodcrushers and lose another rank. The Knights lose combat by -2CR but stands fast.

DAEMONS TURN 3


My Horrors charges the WarAltar, which I probably should have done in the previous turn. They actually manage to do a wound to it.


The Greatsword kill all the Bloodletters, my Herald (BSB) kills one GreatSword before he (and the Horrors) melt to Instability. In the picture above we see the reform from victory that the Empire troops and WarAltar performed subsequently.

The Daemon Prince and Herald of Tzeentch misses all their attacks, but the DP manages to MonsterStomp two Swordsmen - who are Steadfast.


My Daemonettes continue to roll rather *meh* for wounding, but the poor Spearmen are not much better and my Daemons actually survive the Instability to fight another round of combat.


My Bloodthirster finally smashes the SteamTank to very tiny pieces. Beyond this combat my Furies had naturally charged (and killed) both the Engineer and the Hellfire Rocket Battery. The Nurglings also finally managed to claw down the 2 remaining crewmen for the Hellblaster.


Grandmaster and Herald both do 2 wounds to eachother. Knights deal one wound and Bloodcrushers deal one wound. The total combat is an exact 'tigh' in this Combat Phase, so moving on..

EMPIRE TURN 4

MAGIC: He cast Sheild of Faith on the Knights, and I managed to dispel Sheild of Faith cast on the Spearmen fighting the Daemonettes - this probably sounds ridiculous, but he rolled really low with 3 dice and I'm an idiot (haha). He also managed to cast Speed of Light on the Detachment still fighting my Daemon Prince and Herald of Tzeentch (not that it helped them much).


The Daemon Prince and Herald of Tzeentch finally kills the last of the Swordsmen, and reforms to face the rest of the Empire Army.


2 Daemonettes are struck down, and 2 Spearmen as well. The Daemonettes rolls a '3' for Instability and actually lives to fight another round of combat.
In this picture we also see how the Halbardiers are traversing the bridge, with the Bloodthirster angrily stearing into their flank.


The Inner Circle Knights finally cave in and flee but the Bloodcrushers persue 15" and catch them.

DAEMONS TURN 4


Playing defensively, my opponant had hoped to combo-charge my Daemon Prince with all his remaining forces, but since I was freed from the combat with the Swordsmen in his turn I instead got to charge (and kill) his WarAltar-chariot - also taking me out of all his charge-archs!


My Furies and Nurglings didn't really have anything to do...


The Spearmen finally killed my Daemonettes and reformed as such..


My Bloodthirster - having lost all hopes of taking his points back in this game - charged the Halberdiers in the flank. Needles to say, he stood there hacking away for the rest of the game (joined later on by the Nurglings we can see further back in this picture). Those Halberdiers didn't do anything to him, but at they weren't going anywhere either. They did fail their first attempt at reforming to face the Bloodthirster though, which was funny I guess.

EMPIRE TURN 5


The Level 4 tried to cast Burning Gaze on the Daemon Prince but I (finally) managed to dispel it. Sheild of Faith was cast on the Helbardiers on the big bridge however.

Again, the Bloodthirster naturally won combat (busy killing champs, captains, preists etcetera one-at-a-time) but the Hellbardiers are Steadfast as can be.

DAEMONS TURN 5

The Daemons Prince really catches the Level 4 with her panties down as he declares a charge, the Wizard attempts to flee but as we can see from this picture the distance of that Charge was quite impressive. Finally rid of that pesky Level 4, caused me a lot of greif in this game..


Bloodthirster is joined by the 2 Nurglings in the slow inevitable grind that's going on at the big bridge. The Hellbardiers are dying slowly, but are Steadfast of course.


The Bloodcrushers make it back to the smaller bridge after having turned around from their persuit of the (now dead) Inner Circle Knights. Guess what, it's the last we see of these Crushers in this battle..

EMPIRE TURN 6
He casts Hammer of Sigmar on the Hellbardiers and I dispel Sheild of Faith. Hellbardiers lose combat by -4CR but are still Steadfast.

DAEMONS TURN 6

My Bloodcrushers were too far away to do anything. The Daemon Prince, Herald of Tzeentch, and Furies all hopped around a little bit just for fun but of course they couldn't really score any VP's so no picture of that..

The Bloodthirster and Nurglings on the bridge kept killing Halberdiers but they of course kept being Steadfast.


This is the 'End Game' Picture.

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To those of you who just likes battlereports I hope this was entertaining! I will discuss this game further in the 'Main Thread' ('The New DoC Book') from the perspective of play-testing, but I will add some thoughts on the New Empire Book Here:

Reflections from the Game

I was dissappointed that my opponant did not bring any WitchHunters, because I think those are nasty as hell (against Daemons - with our Locus) and they would have really come in handy in this game me thinks.

It goes without saying that Empire faced a definate 'comp' in the sense that his Hurricanium and Luminark are not painted and ready yet, same thing with the DemiGryphs. He would of course have had to give something up in order to include those into this army, but still I believe one should mention it.

The new Detachment rules are every bit as awesome as I concluded them to be as soon as I opened Cruddace's book. I really like the way they work as well, except for the 'mess' concerning how one is to resolve Steadfast between Regimental and Detachment.

On hindsight, it was a bigger mistake than I anticipated to bring so little magic to this game. 'Great Standard of Sundering' would have been better than "Icon of Crimson Carnage" even though the former has been slightly toned down (in our re-write) while the latter is just murder when given to Bloodletters like I did in this battle (thanks to aligning the Marks of my General and BSB!).

It was an awesome game. Despite the two of us freezing our asses off toward the end of it (two degrees above freezing after sundown). It's actually a long time ago I have faced Empire (with Daemons) and had a battle that was this bloody even.
In the end I scored ~700 more Victory Points than my opponant did, so what I would call a 'Minor Victory'.

But it could really have gone either way! We both rolled insanely well and abyssmally poor at times. I had the worst streak of bad luck (and poor judgement) when it came to the Magic Phases, while I rolled a couple of fistfulls of Wardsaves that made us both laugh and shake our heads.
My opponant's General dying to 3 measly Bloodletter-attacks was quite epic, and let's not forget that he rolled snake-eyes with those Inner Circle Knights.

We both made terrible mistakes, like when I committed suicide with those Seekers or when he forgot that my Daemon Prince could Fly and charge his Wizard in the 5th Turn.

All things put together, I really like what I've seen so far of the new Empire Book - and I can't wait for those big gribblies to make it on the stage as well!

Well, I hope this little report was comprehensible. Apologies for the picture quality and coherence getting increasingly worse throughout this report, the heat of battle just gets the better of you.. you know?

EDIT
It should be noted that the Steamtank managed to do one wound during combat (grinding) with the Bloodthirster - as I believe I failed to include that in the above report. This means that the BT was down 2 wounds (out of 6, costing 470pts base) at the end of the game.
I'm also certain that the Daemon Prince actually suffered one wound at some point as well - but I can't find the exact instance in my notes (though I believe it was a spell.. that must have gotten lost in the haze somewhere).

Todiloo! I was the empire playa in this battle and DR thought I'd pop in and give my thoughts on your re-write. Note that the following is of course just IMHO.

As a playtest, this game was not all that representative as we both played with new army books for the first time, but I think at least some things could be learned. Either way it was a really fun game.

The Bloodcrushers certainly seem worthwhile now, without being overpowered. The armour upgrade, even if expensive, might be a bit of a no-brainer though. The biggest issue I have with the crushers is that it's not really worthwhile to include a herald in the unit. The BLs riding the juggers are almost as good as the herald, and at a way lower cost. I would've liked the riders to be nerfed down to something like "basic" BLs with 1 attack etc, while buffing the juggernaughts so that the whole model is still equally powerful. This would make the herald more worthwhile. Well, maybe the juggernaughts would need to gain hatred locus. It would require some careful balancing but it would be fun to make the mounted herald worthwhile.

The heavy armour upgrade for ordinary bloodletters, I'm totally fine with. It's not really worth it at all against elite enemies (that is, the preferred targets for BLs) though. I probably wouldn't bother with it just as I don't bother with shields for my spearmen for that 5+ AS.

The 3+ regen on the daemon prince is probably fine as it can be countered by fire, and the poor sod really needed some serious buffing.

The Firestorm of Tzeentch was the only spell I encountered in the game. In the actual DoC book, the firestorm is a total waste of space IMO, and it really needed some serious re-thinking. What you have come up with is probably around where it should be at. Might be a bit too random, as a single S6 firestorm could win you a whole game just because you happened to roll a 6. And a S1 storm would just be a waste of power dice. But I guess it's Tzeentchy and everything and compared to the other nuke spells out there, I don't think it's over the top.

I think the "rending claws" or whatever it's called (the upgrade for the daemonettes that ignores armour saves on a 6) is a fun ability, but IMO it makes them too versatile. Daemons already have a can opener unit in BLs, and the daemonettes' speciality should be mowing down basic infantry. I agree it's a fluffy upgrade with those crabby claws and all, but game-wise I'd prefer the different core daemons to specialize in entirelly different tasks.

Another little thing is the lash of khorne. First, lashes feel more like a Slaanesh thing. Second, the lash may be a bit too optimal in the hands of a HoK, as he's already an expert at killing characters. I like the idea, but I'd make it a Slaanesh gift instead, which would probably make it a wee bit cheaper too.

Brynolf - thanks for the feedback on our little project, and for being the first "guinea pig". No doubt we'll be debating your points for the next few days at least. Also, welcome to the forum.

@DaemonReign - obviously not taking some anti-magic when you only had a level 2 was a bit of mistake, but it didn't harm you in the end. Also, like you said yourself, you could have used your Seekers better. Once they had been reduced in numbers I would have used their high move to get around the Empire flank and make Brynolf's decisions a bit harder if nothing else. If they didn't get blasted again in the next magic phase you could have then flank-charged them into the detachment while the Prince went into the front.

Did you use the Lash of Khorne gift at all during the game? I couldn't see any specific references to it in your report.

Anyway, entertaining report and looks like it was a good game.

@ Brynolf:
Cheers for the Game man, and thanks for giving us this feedback of course. You are of course more than welcome to join the discussion taking place in the Main Thread as well!

@ JonathanC:
Your question with regards to 'Lash of Khorne' (yes I did use it!) is dealt with in my most recent post in the Main Thread too.

It didn't have a great effect on the Combat that the HoK BSB was in, since the Arc Lector (who had the Speculum) was promptly killed as soon as he joined that combat (and since my HoK BSB melted to Instability directly afterwards anyway..)

About those Seekers: Well I just screwed up. They shouldn't have been deployed like that. With hindsight, I should have deployed them 'behind' the Haunted Mansion and used the first turns of the game to bring the entire (undamaged) unit around to the Rear of the Empire lines - it was just a shamefull brainfart to play them like I did, I got what I deserved for it.

And Magic, of course.. Having no Level 4 to help me Dispel stuff really hurt throughout this game. The thing is, bringing nothing but a HoT could have paid off if I had just rolled one or two dice differently (rolling better Strength for Tzeentch Firestorm, rolling another Miscast result than losing all my Magic Levels!). So it was a gamble that did not pay off - if I had invested heavily in Magic I would have had the problem of Empire's excellent Dispelling capabilities eating away at my cost-efficiency either way..

Nice batrep! Cool to see some of the work that you guys have put in in action.