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 Need some help, considering starting Fantasy
FatherKnowsBest
Posted: Apr 22 2012, 12:37 PM


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I've only ever played 40k Daemons, and all my daemons are on round bases.

Recently, however, I've been getting a little curious about Fantasy after watching a few games at my local game store.

I found this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b0jJ-t3SXo...ture=plpp_video

...and thought, why not make a go of it.

I was hoping to pick up the army book sometime this week and try to familiarize myself some more as well.

Generally, games around where I play are in the 2,500 point range.

For whatever their reasons, they also do not allowed named characters in their tournaments.

I was hoping that this forum's members could take a look at what I do have, and then direct me as to what I might need to have a playable force. Again, everything is on round bases so I'll have to work on that.

Bloodthirster (Balrog)
Great Unclean One
3 Daemon Princes
10 Plaguebearers (converted from bloodletters) with an Icon (Banner).
20 Bloodletters with an instrument.
10 Horrors with an instrument.
6 Fiends (Warmahordes Teraphs)
3 Bloodcrushers
9 Flamers (converted from some Malifaux things)
Herald of Nurgle
3 Herald of Tzeentch on chariots
1 Herald of Tzeentch on foot

I was considering getting the Daemon's Battleforce box set which would give me more core units, also some fleshhounds.

As I'm completely new to Fantasy, I'd welcome any and all input.
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LAV-Kitsune-
Posted: Apr 22 2012, 04:01 PM


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1 or 2 Battleforces would be a good start on fantasy battle army even with the models that you already got. Basic fantasy battle army (the very very basic) has Greater daemon, 1-2 Heralds of Tzeentch, 2-3 Core units of 20-40 models, few furies and or single fiends plus some flamers on it. You could start with it and then see what direction you want to go to.

So you already got characters so few more battleforces would give you viable amount of core units. Hounds are ok too, but you could do a good army without too big investments.
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FatherKnowsBest
Posted: May 4 2012, 11:34 AM


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QUOTE (LAV-Kitsune- @ Apr 22 2012, 04:01 PM)
1 or 2 Battleforces would be a good start on fantasy battle army even with the models that you already got. Basic fantasy battle army (the very very basic) has Greater daemon, 1-2 Heralds of Tzeentch, 2-3 Core units of 20-40 models, few furies and or single fiends plus some flamers on it. You could start with it and then see what direction you want to go to.

So you already got characters so few more battleforces would give you viable amount of core units. Hounds are ok too, but you could do a good army without too big investments.

Thanks very much. I know it's limiting, but I was considering going all Khorne for starters until I get more of the strategies of the game sorted out in my head and work from there.

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DaemonReign
Posted: May 4 2012, 01:06 PM


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Great to see you want come over to the Fantasy side of things!

Going MonoKhorne seems pretty unnecessary given that you actually all the models you need already to make a Khorne-based army with some colorfull 'choices' sprinkled over it.

But the direction of Khorne of course makes the first steps you want to take pretty straight-forward in my humble opinion: It's all about getting yourself anything between 6 and 10 boxes of Bloodletters and 'get to work'. smile.gif

You pretty much have all the Characters you need already, save for a handfull of Khorne Heralds to join those big units of Bloodletters that would be mainstay of your primary army.

I think that's where you'd be best off starting, given your stated preferences.

On the bright side, I don't think you'll ever find yourself needing another Tzeentch Chariot or Daemon Prince (of any kind) again. biggrin.gif (You really got 3 Tzeentch Chariots?! That's awesome!)

Once you got them Bloodletters sorted you can 'relax' and start adding stuff more depending on your preferences at the time. Like I'd get 3 more Bloodcrushers for example, and like LAV-Kitsune said Furies..

FleshHounds are nice too, one box of those plus the Karanak model will give you a nice suitable unit of 6!


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generalian
Posted: May 7 2012, 06:17 PM


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I've played daemons now for a couple years so let's if I can help you...

If this is what you got....

Bloodthirster (Balrog)
Great Unclean One
3 Daemon Princes
10 Plaguebearers (converted from bloodletters) with an Icon (Banner).
20 Bloodletters with an instrument.
10 Horrors with an instrument.
6 Fiends (Warmahordes Teraphs)
3 Bloodcrushers
9 Flamers (converted from some Malifaux things)
Herald of Nurgle
3 Herald of Tzeentch on chariots
1 Herald of Tzeentch on foot

Then you are already half way there.

Here is what you need to do in order.... and try to follow these as best as you can.

First, learn the rules.
Their are plenty of people willing to teach as well as loan their armies to get new people into the game. Knowing what each unit does as well as how each unit functions helps a lot, especially once you get better

Second, do some research.
40k daemons are very different from fantasy daemons. Look at some battlereports and read some articles, it will give you a good style how to play them and what most people are doing to make their army successful in battle.
Take a look at this. It might help http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer/Tactics/Daemons_of_Chaos

Third, conversion.
I loved the video you posted and think its a great idea. It will certainly work with your troops, but your special units (like your flamers) will not work. I would look online some more as their are plenty of ways people of found to get around this.

Fourth, your army.
Everyone's army is different and while some people prefer competitive armies... others prefer the themed army. However, you have to remember that while some units may look cool.... you should never use them. Take for example the beast of nurgle. It looks great, but you will never see it on the battlefield. Look at what units you want to see and then check to see if people are using it.

Here is my analysis in parenthesis

Great Unclean One (you can use this, but will eventually find the other daemons better)
3 Daemon Princes (you will never use one)
10 Plaguebearers (these are horrible in fantasy, but are still awesome in 40k)
20 Bloodletters with an instrument (bloodletters are some of the best troops in the game, you want lots of these)
10 Horrors with an instrument (make this unit a little bigger and throw in your herald for a good core unit)
6 Fiends (these are great, but you will only use 3 at the most)
3 Bloodcrushers (keep these at home, cost too many points)
9 Flamers (one the most terrifying units in fantasy, you will learn why once you understand all their capabilities)
Herald of Nurgle (same as the plaguebearers... never)
3 Herald of Tzeentch on chariots (heralds on chariots are a huge waste points... keep those in your 40k army)
1 Herald of Tzeentch on foot (place this with your horror unit)

Fifth, make a list.
From what I can see, you acutally have a lot of points from which you can make a decent 2500 point army.
I would personally buy what you are missing instead of another battle box... as you will never use the seekers.

Just get more bloodletters, 3 more flamers, and more pink horros and you should be good to play.

GL with fantasy and remember to always have fun, even if the dice gods look poorly upon you.
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FatherKnowsBest
Posted: May 9 2012, 08:40 AM


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Thanks very much.

I am borrowing a rulebook while I wait for mine to arrive, same with the Army book.

I've now played a couple of games with some local players (Not using Daemons) just to get a better feel for the game mechanics and to start to develop basic tactics.

It's been fun though.

I realize that Daemons are going to be vastly different in Fantasy versus 40k, but thanks very much on the heads up about what could work vs. what won't do well.

Let me sort out some more things, but I'll try and get a list together.
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generalian
Posted: May 9 2012, 10:40 AM


Lil' Nurgling


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Here is a quick list I made for you.

Its decent, but at least it will get you playing at a 2500 level


Bloodthrister of Khorne
Obsidian Armor / Firestorm Blade

1 Herald of Tzeentch on foot
Master of sorcery / Spell Breaker

1 Herald of Khorne
Battle Standard Bearer / Great Icon of Despair / Armor of Khorne

39 Bloodletters
Full Command (means champion, standard bearer, and musician)

29 Pink Horrors
Full Command

5 Flesh Hounds

6 Flamers


6 Flamers


1 Fiend


1 Fiend

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JonathanC
Posted: May 9 2012, 07:35 PM


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I'd advise using a list that sticks to your existing collection as much as possible to begin with, and then develop your army from there. The army list posted above is decent, if a bit cookie-cutter for the most part.

I would also advise ignoring the linked article generalian posted, its very poorly written and a lot of stuff in it is wrong or out of date.

I disagree about the Plaguebearers and HoN too, I think they're great and prefer them to Bloodletters myself. Like 40k, their resilience is their main selling point. If you intend to field them you'll probably want at least 20 though.

Other than that check out the WFB section of this forum, lots of useful stickied articles and topics of discussion there. smile.gif



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Come on Tzeentch!

Do you like words and pictures arranged together to tell a story? If so, check out my battle report thread here.
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Killing Blow
Posted: May 10 2012, 12:06 AM


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Something people have not talked about is the importance of movement trays. Large units of core troops is paramount in Fantasy. GW sells movement tray kits for around $10.00 here in the USA (not sure where you are located). This allows you to deploy and move your models quickly during a game. The trays can temporarily suffice for the lack of square bases. If you find out that you like the game then you can invest in square bases.

I would build the first trays 5 wide x 6 deep as most of your blocks of infantry (letters, bearers, netts, and horrors) will be 20-30 man units.
Other trays will be 5x4 or 6x4 for the fiends, hounds, and crushers.

Later on you will want to magnatize these same trays but find out if you enjoy the game before spending the cash. I played with round bases for months before getting them on squares.

I simply glued square bases (gale force 9 magnetic) to the bottom of the round ones and kept on playing.

Good luck and have fun with it.


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Steve
Traverse City, Michigan
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generalian
Posted: May 10 2012, 01:40 PM


Lil' Nurgling


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QUOTE (JonathanC @ May 9 2012, 07:35 PM)
I'd advise using a list that sticks to your existing collection as much as possible to begin with, and then develop your army from there. The army list posted above is decent, if a bit cookie-cutter for the most part.

I would also advise ignoring the linked article generalian posted, its very poorly written and a lot of stuff in it is wrong or out of date.

I disagree about the Plaguebearers and HoN too, I think they're great and prefer them to Bloodletters myself. Like 40k, their resilience is their main selling point. If you intend to field them you'll probably want at least 20 though.

Other than that check out the WFB section of this forum, lots of useful stickied articles and topics of discussion there. smile.gif

I disagree with this.

I've read most of the stickies and honestly, they seem outdated and poorly organized.

Sure the list is pretty cookie cutter, but its good for starting players at the 2500 level.

Also, the link I posted is very right in what it says. It clearly defines the usefullness of every unit instead of just saying... this does this, you should buy it. If I wanted people to try and sell me crap units, I would talk to black shirt at a GW store.

Also you are completely wrong about the Plaguebearers and HoN.

In 8th edition wards and regeneration do not stack at all, thus making these units poor choices in comparison to blood letters, pink horrors, and daemonettes. Bloodletters are infinitely superior and if you look at the current tourney lists at this level.... its all bloodletters.

Believe me, some of the forums here are great for tactics and strategy, but to deny outside opinions is just ignorance.

Its his choice whether to read the article or not and quite frankly, I don't even care if he does.

He wanted help and I gave it to him in my way.

Maybe you should suggest a list for him.
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zhambah
Posted: May 10 2012, 02:22 PM


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QUOTE (generalian @ May 10 2012, 01:40 PM)
I've read most of the stickies and honestly, they seem outdated and poorly organized.


oh no he didnt!!!

the stickies in regards to the ones lav has done, are all up to date for 8th... some of the stickies shouldn't be there anymore because as you said they are out of date, but they are clearly stated that they are for 7th

as to plaguebearers, granted the plaguebearers aren't as good as they were in 7th, and for raw killing power bloodletters are better, but for a solid unit that isn't going anywhere there's still nothing better than plaguebearers in our army list, they will wear down the strongest of foes, give the herald stream of bile and hordes can fall easily to them... toughness 4 core is nothing to sniff at.

honestly though, do you actually prefer horror's to plaguebearers? if so, why?

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JonathanC
Posted: May 10 2012, 07:59 PM


Greater Daemon
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@generalian
Sorry if it seemed like I was just having a go at you or trying to rubbish all your points - I actually agree with a lot of the things I didn't comment on but maybe should have said so to clarify my position further. sad.gif

I don't think the stickies are the be-all and end-all of the tactics either (I'd been using Daemons for many years before I read them and haven't changed my tactics much because of them since), but I do think they are a useful starting point for new players from which to branch out on their own. If you have any comments on how they could be improved I'm sure LAV would be glad to hear your input, he periodically edits them anyway to incorporate feedback and new ideas he's picked up.

Sure this site doesn't need to be the only source of information for Father, but I stand by my opinions on the linked article. I never said it was completely wrong, but it does have mistakes and the writing standard is very poor.

As for my preference for Plaguebearers over Bloodletters, you seem to misunderstand what I was saying. I'm not saying Plaguebearers are better, they just work differently and I prefer PB's over 'Letters. I'd actually say the poorest core unit is Daemonettes by far, but I'm sure many would disagree with me here.

As for your list, like I said it is decent enough. A good starting point for Father would probably be to take your list and tweak it to fit his collection a bit better, then decide what he wants to add after a couple of games.


--------------------
Come on Tzeentch!

Do you like words and pictures arranged together to tell a story? If so, check out my battle report thread here.
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generalian
Posted: May 10 2012, 09:34 PM


Lil' Nurgling


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QUOTE (JonathanC @ May 10 2012, 07:59 PM)
@generalian
Sorry if it seemed like I was just having a go at you or trying to rubbish all your points - I actually agree with a lot of the things I didn't comment on but maybe should have said so to clarify my position further. sad.gif

I don't think the stickies are the be-all and end-all of the tactics either (I'd been using Daemons for many years before I read them and haven't changed my tactics much because of them since), but I do think they are a useful starting point for new players from which to branch out on their own.  If you have any comments on how they could be improved I'm sure LAV would be glad to hear your input, he periodically edits them anyway to incorporate feedback and new ideas he's picked up.

Sure this site doesn't need to be the only source of information for Father, but I stand by my opinions on the linked article.  I never said it was completely wrong, but it does have mistakes and the writing standard is very poor.

As for my preference for Plaguebearers over Bloodletters, you seem to misunderstand what I was saying.  I'm not saying Plaguebearers are better, they just work differently and I prefer PB's over 'Letters.  I'd actually say the poorest core unit is Daemonettes by far, but I'm sure many would disagree with me here.

As for your list, like I said it is decent enough.  A good starting point for Father would probably be to take your list and tweak it to fit his collection a bit better, then decide what he wants to add after a couple of games.

The perfect response!

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I tell you, sometimes the internet can surprise you with how nice some people can be.
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FatherKnowsBest
Posted: May 10 2012, 09:42 PM


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I'm not going to complain either way.

40k, by comparison, is so simple.

I now have the rulebook and army book, but even armed with those, it's nice to have a guide along this infernal path we've chosen.

I think I will end up replacing the fiends (although I love them in 40k) with some Bloodcrushers simply because I already have my Crushers on square bases, and the Fiends I do use, are based on round bases and are pinned to them in multiple places and I would never even think of messing with them in such a way (I use Teraphs from Warmahordes, great modesl, but they are horribly designed to go together).

I plan to play around with this when the main additions to my force (Core) arrive in the mail though. I got some movement trays for cheap on the recommendation of a friend, and will hopefully have something together, albeit unpainted, in the next two weeks.

But thank you for all the advice. It's all welcome and all useful, so please keep it coming.
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