I think that was a lovely post. If you had refrained from actually calling specific persons 'idiots' I don't think there would have been any Moderator-supervision on that one. I've never had that happen to me at Warseer, and I was pretty 'rampant' there a few years ago when I was new to the interwebs crap.. I did get a Warning Level once for using the word 'gay' (comically, I might add) as a swap for 'meh' ... That's something which is pretty common in Sweden, and of course it's 'derogatory' if you wanna be like that.. but I never imagined I'd get a Warned for it.
Anyway, back to your post (that probably will only be seen here on the Legion) -
I never bothered looking at Jerry's little links. I'm glad you did though, and called his bluff. 'Cause yeah that is just pathethic. Placing in the top TEN (out of what? 15 races is it?!) wouldn't account for anything even on a good day.
Lots of other good points. But good luck trying to convince the Bearded One of anything, he's got something real
for Daemons and pretty much treats anyone playing them as a troll.. He's the sort of bloke who'll STILL
seriously tell you that Bloodletters are so OP that they need to lose KB, get S4, lose the Wardsave, and go up in cost
+ of course he'd be thrilled if all Daemons got the Undead Unstable rule..
So yeah.. You're ice-skating up a hill even talking to some of these people.
But it was a good post. Perhaps a bit politically incorrect, but hell let's be honest: There's no winning with mentalities such as these.. You could have sugar-coated that post something silly and the net result would have been the same as far as they are concerned.@ TOONCES
Daemons were 'at the top' in 7th. They were obviously placed there deliberately. I personally started them in 7th and got my ass handed to me 9 out of 10 games versus Dark Elves. Did I rage-quit? Start a blog about it? Nope. I enjoyed the challange.
It was really only when I started reading Warseer I found out that Daemons were appearantly the scourge of Warhammer.
That being said, with a little hindsight they certainly were
a bit too good all-round in 7th. And 8th Edition rebalanced Daemons in pretty much the way that you describe. But I simply have to
make a stance against some of the things you say about them:
Quote:Yep, our unstable is better than everybody else's unstable.
What's this 'Unstable' you speak of?
Daemons have 'Daemonic Instability'.
Daemons are NOT Undead.
Bundling them together with VC/TK like that is actually something I find offensive - as silly as that might sound given that we're talking about a game of toy-soldiers here.
I can accept people arguing that, for example, Instability is improperly costed - or something like that. But just saying that our 'Unstable' is better than everyone else's just shuts down the conversion for me.
Because all I feel like saying about that is: Yep, a Bloodletter is better
than a Skeleton Warrior.. Why? Well because it's a Daemon!
, that's why..
I have no problem with admitting/seeing that 5+ Wardsave Army Wide is 'solid'. Again, it can only ever be a 'problem' if it's not costed correctly (and YES things were off in 7th, no argument there).
Greater Daemons on 50x50 bases. Well, same thing there: They were a steal in 7th. Hard to hit and hard to counter.
Every single one of them is OVERCOSTED in 8th Ed though.
But yeah, these are just pet-feuds of mine.. Please don't take offense from my little ranting here. I agree with you that the difference between Editions are "night and day" and I am particular fan-boy of 8th Ed (I just think it's awesome regardless of what race I happen to play!).
Looking the Daemon Book in 8th (which me and some other guys have done a lot
lately) it's actually kind of funny 'cause the majority of stuff in it is actually pretty bad when you think about it. There are certain 'sharp' items/gifts/units that can abused *now* but a quick review of the Sections give you that a lot of stuff is pretty bad:
Bloodletters is the only unit here that can seriously be said be undercosted. The rest of them are either pretty good at 12pts or more or less overcosted.
Nurglings are good at their current cost. That's it.
Flamers, naturally. Good at their current cost according to some, undercosted according to Daemon Haters. Bloodcrushers are a joke compared to newer MC units. Beasts of Nurgle are crap. Fiends are all right but mostly as single model harassment style drops.
Heralds are good. We've upped their cost a bit in our little project to account for the Locus being better in 8th.
The GDs arn't worth 450pts. The Bloodthirster is the only one that even comes close.
Daemon Prince? Let's not go there.
So the bottom line, it seems to me, is that if you play a sufficiently large game in 8th to bring 2-3 Hordes of Bloodletters, supported by (undercosted) Master of Sorcery and (undecosted) Despair Icon and (undercosted) Masque then sure
And it compares rather well to bringing that Stubborn Unkillable Dreadlord on Dragon, supported by a Dagger-weilding Level 4 in a gargantuan unit of 5pts SpearElves, with 3-4 ultra-cheap Hydras on the side..
And I don't mean to bash Dark Elves. Come to think of it, we can take 8th Ed books (Ogres) as a good example ... and all though it's too early to really tell I don't think the new Empire book is gonna be an easy treat (for anyone) either.
Oh well.. I've gone on long enough. Need to sleep now. Cheers. And again Toonces, I really didn't mean to pick a feud with you. I'm just allergic to people calling "Instability" a better kind of unstable.. because it isn't, and it shouldn't be described as though it was.