How do long term DoC players..., Put up with all the negativity!?

Well that didn't last long!

*lol*
I just opened this thread-page to say exactly That, but you beat me to it..

God... It's those kinds of Whiners that never deserve to be satisfied. It would just serve them right if there's a new DoC Book coming out where Everything just got even more nasty.

It'd actually be worth it just to watch them stutter in anger.

Well.. Maybe not worth it.. but still.. Whiners should never get their way!

Well, I read the warseer forum update and I just couldn't help myself. I posted a rather direct, and maybe a little insulting, reply to the whinefest going on by a couple of, from the sounds of it, truely terrible players.

It wasn't until I submitted my post that I saw a moderator needed to approve my message, which I'm sure they will not. SO.... I will paste it here for you guys to read just so you know I practice what I preach. lol! That, and the narcissist in me needs to be heard.

(I carry a little bit of Slaanesh inside my heart, its right next to my pride)

Ok so Just to address Jerry real fast, if I can get any of this thru his warped view of reality, whats wrong with demons finishing in the top ten with almost half a dozen other armies also placing in the top ten along with them? Mind you only in one of those examples did a demons army actually take first... so yea, its not only Demons you have a problem with it's 50% of the armies available to people in the Warhammer world. I know your not getting my point so I'll be direct. Your an idiot and your argument makes all the logical sense of a four year old throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of a fast food joint. Out of the top ten slots in all those links demons made a single appearance along with many other armies and you interpret that as all those armies being OP and you being the victim. Here's a tip clue-dart, its not the armies.... its YOU.

Now, The Bearded one, Dude you are suffering from two serious problems when facing demons. One is Absolute terrible luck, and two is a demon player that may be taking advantage of your ignorance.(This isn't meant as an insult this is a "heads-up") The Furies charging your warmahcine and clipping your brick should have been a death sentence. Even with 3 wounds and charging your 3 ranks and a banner had you winning by 1 with a musician, and that's me assumeing you did ZERO return wounds to the furies. If for some reason you had a brick without a standard or a musician then thats your fault and can't be laid at the feet of the DoC army. Even then the furies, losing by one, needed to roll snakes in order to not lose any models as there was no 18" range of influence for generals in 7th. If the general AND the furies were inside 12" of eachother when all this happened then dear God man you were going to lose this battle reguardless and should reassess your strat. lol!

As for your last example with the flamers needing 6's and 6's to kill your 5+ wardsave warmachine, your BSB failing 3+ re-rollable saves, Skulltaker getting a killingblow past your 2+ ward save (You know, even with killing blow, you would still get your 2+ ward save right?) , 6 X Flamers having engaged a full (Steadfast) unit, won combat and broke your spirit... well that's just all awful luck. I mean maybe you should throw away your dice or something but dear God man with your opponent rolling out of the box and you rolling terribly it wouldnt matter if your had a Demon prince riding a dragon that was getting a piggyback from a Carnosaur!!!!

However, I would love to hear more about the Flamers (WS 2, A2) that charged you, won combat, and broke your steadfast unit. I mean either you're the unluckiest person on the planet, or your lieing to support your position on demons. Either way the problem isnt with the army, its with you.

To all the whiners on the thread.... well lets face it, thats one of the things Warseer is known for, alot of low talent Warhammer players getting together to explain why its everyone's fault but their own. I mean a dude wrote on this thread that he was "Frothing at the mouth with anger" because people said that demons aren't OP anylonger.... then he posts a link that he claims shows DoC on the top of the US boards, They're fifth.... how much you want to bet he plays at least one of the armies ranked 1-4? lol! Seriously, with the release of 8th edition and the new hardback books being released WHFB has NEVER been more balanced or more fun. While I do sympathise with people that have outdated books (Woodelves, Brets, Dwarves... help is comming! Stay strong brothers!!!) but theres nothing for them until their hardback is released. But to say ANY of the armies is OP now is really just your own inability to admit that you were beaten and you were beaten fair given the rules at the time.

Yea sure some of the people you've played have cheated and bent the rules in order to gain the upper hand, or people posting examples are pathetic liars that need loads of therapy... either way thats not the fault of the army its the fault of the user and the user is going to be a lowlife, or a liar, or both, no matter what army he brings to the table.

In anycase, I'll see you guys at the USA GT's and I'll know who you are pretty quick when you start pissing and moaning when you see me begin to place my demons across the table from you. Persoanlly I love the whining, it lets me know I'm already in my opponent's head and that my friends is worth more than rolling boxcars in your magic phase.

See you at the winner's table!

-Tremendous

I've not heard of posts needing to be approved before - maybe its becuase it featured certain keywords (like idiot) that the mods need to check up on to see what context they are used in before they'll let it through.

Be interesting to see if it gets past the censors.

Having played 3rd edition and then being offline until 7th edition, I got restarted playing in earnest instead of just collecting a week after the Daemons army book came out.

I virtually rage quit the game losing game after game after game to the Bloodthirster - Flamer - Great Wall of Nurgle lists that felt unbreakable.

This weblog post goes into amusing detail: http://confounding.net/2009/02/26/is-warhammer-balanced/ and I think one thing he's forgetting is that one of the only reasons didn't have more wins is that many matchups were daemons and daemons and logically speaking, someone had to rack up a daemon loss in those pairings.

8th edition has hit Daemons so hard that now I play them and enjoy them and lose often. I love it. The army is still strong, still has nasty combos, still has some tricks and traps that cause much fist-shaking and face-palms.

Yep, our unstable is better than everybody else's unstable. Yep, 5+ ward save is solid. Yep, our Greater Demons are on mere 50x50 bases and only a direct hit from a stone thrower gets them. Yep, there's lots of crazy in the army but the difference between 7th and 8th edition is night and day and anybody who is still angry about daemons is probably just holding a grudge dwarf-style.

All those cool items in the main rulebook? Those barely existed in 7th edition and Dameons can't get the fun trinkets all the other armies got. Nearly every other T3 troop in the game is cheaper and better suited to a grind fest (and it's all but certain that were will be a couple grinds happening in every 8th edition). Regen being classed as an alternate ward (instead of an additional save) greatly compromised the anvil units in the army and changes to fear/steadfast greatly compromised the hammer units in the army.

If you meet people who still hold a hate for Daemons, let them play with your army. A friend lent me his army a year or so ago and it let me see how the tables have turned and it made me a convert.

@ Tremendous
I think that was a lovely post. If you had refrained from actually calling specific persons 'idiots' I don't think there would have been any Moderator-supervision on that one. I've never had that happen to me at Warseer, and I was pretty 'rampant' there a few years ago when I was new to the interwebs crap.. I did get a Warning Level once for using the word 'gay' (comically, I might add) as a swap for 'meh' ... That's something which is pretty common in Sweden, and of course it's 'derogatory' if you wanna be like that.. but I never imagined I'd get a Warned for it.
Anyway, back to your post (that probably will only be seen here on the Legion) -
I never bothered looking at Jerry's little links. I'm glad you did though, and called his bluff. 'Cause yeah that is just pathethic. Placing in the top TEN (out of what? 15 races is it?!) wouldn't account for anything even on a good day.
Lots of other good points. But good luck trying to convince the Bearded One of anything, he's got something real for Daemons and pretty much treats anyone playing them as a troll.. He's the sort of bloke who'll STILL seriously tell you that Bloodletters are so OP that they need to lose KB, get S4, lose the Wardsave, and go up in cost + of course he'd be thrilled if all Daemons got the Undead Unstable rule..
So yeah.. You're ice-skating up a hill even talking to some of these people.
But it was a good post. Perhaps a bit politically incorrect, but hell let's be honest: There's no winning with mentalities such as these.. You could have sugar-coated that post something silly and the net result would have been the same as far as they are concerned.

@ TOONCES
Daemons were 'at the top' in 7th. They were obviously placed there deliberately. I personally started them in 7th and got my ass handed to me 9 out of 10 games versus Dark Elves. Did I rage-quit? Start a blog about it? Nope. I enjoyed the challange.
It was really only when I started reading Warseer I found out that Daemons were appearantly the scourge of Warhammer.
That being said, with a little hindsight they certainly were a bit too good all-round in 7th. And 8th Edition rebalanced Daemons in pretty much the way that you describe. But I simply have to make a stance against some of the things you say about them:

Quote:
Yep, our unstable is better than everybody else's unstable.

What's this 'Unstable' you speak of?
Seriously.
Daemons have 'Daemonic Instability'.
Daemons are NOT Undead.
Bundling them together with VC/TK like that is actually something I find offensive - as silly as that might sound given that we're talking about a game of toy-soldiers here.
I can accept people arguing that, for example, Instability is improperly costed - or something like that. But just saying that our 'Unstable' is better than everyone else's just shuts down the conversion for me.
Because all I feel like saying about that is: Yep, a Bloodletter is better than a Skeleton Warrior.. Why? Well because it's a Daemon!, that's why..

I have no problem with admitting/seeing that 5+ Wardsave Army Wide is 'solid'. Again, it can only ever be a 'problem' if it's not costed correctly (and YES things were off in 7th, no argument there).

Greater Daemons on 50x50 bases. Well, same thing there: They were a steal in 7th. Hard to hit and hard to counter.
Every single one of them is OVERCOSTED in 8th Ed though.

But yeah, these are just pet-feuds of mine.. Please don't take offense from my little ranting here. I agree with you that the difference between Editions are "night and day" and I am particular fan-boy of 8th Ed (I just think it's awesome regardless of what race I happen to play!).

Looking the Daemon Book in 8th (which me and some other guys have done a lot lately) it's actually kind of funny 'cause the majority of stuff in it is actually pretty bad when you think about it. There are certain 'sharp' items/gifts/units that can abused *now* but a quick review of the Sections give you that a lot of stuff is pretty bad:

Core:
Bloodletters is the only unit here that can seriously be said be undercosted. The rest of them are either pretty good at 12pts or more or less overcosted.

Special:
Nurglings are good at their current cost. That's it.

Rare:
Flamers, naturally. Good at their current cost according to some, undercosted according to Daemon Haters. Bloodcrushers are a joke compared to newer MC units. Beasts of Nurgle are crap. Fiends are all right but mostly as single model harassment style drops.

Chars:
Heralds are good. We've upped their cost a bit in our little project to account for the Locus being better in 8th.

The GDs arn't worth 450pts. The Bloodthirster is the only one that even comes close.

Daemon Prince? Let's not go there.

So the bottom line, it seems to me, is that if you play a sufficiently large game in 8th to bring 2-3 Hordes of Bloodletters, supported by (undercosted) Master of Sorcery and (undecosted) Despair Icon and (undercosted) Masque then sure that's nasty.
And it compares rather well to bringing that Stubborn Unkillable Dreadlord on Dragon, supported by a Dagger-weilding Level 4 in a gargantuan unit of 5pts SpearElves, with 3-4 ultra-cheap Hydras on the side..

And I don't mean to bash Dark Elves. Come to think of it, we can take 8th Ed books (Ogres) as a good example ... and all though it's too early to really tell I don't think the new Empire book is gonna be an easy treat (for anyone) either.

Oh well.. I've gone on long enough. Need to sleep now. Cheers. And again Toonces, I really didn't mean to pick a feud with you. I'm just allergic to people calling "Instability" a better kind of unstable.. because it isn't, and it shouldn't be described as though it was.

Mm its ok post if you would drop the accusations. Like saying goes, when accusations begin, negotiations end. As long as you can keep your tone civilised you are on the winning side, but at the moment that you start throwing any accusations, it starts a flamewar, atleast on warseer.

Everything starts a flame war on Warseer. Simply by having a different opinion brings out the trolls. I point fingers and make accusations because they're valid and I prove my argument with facts those accused have posted themselves. Also, nothing I type would be anything different from what I'd say face to face. I find conflict brings out solutions in situations such as these even if they can get loud and scarey. lol!

Honestly I absolutely HATE warseer because the majority of the people on there are mindless drones that are just looking for justification for their failures. You never see these people at the local shop or at tournaments mouthing off because they know their arguements are weak and unfounded. Alot of times its just them repeating the opinion of someone from either another forum or their local scene.

However, those types of people have found a type of interweb sanctuary on warseer and now use it to stroke their fragile egos. Besides, my post wasn't really that bad all things considered. I have tried submitting other versions of the post but I think I'm flagged or something because everything I try to post gets moderated and never hits the forum.

Just one more reason to hate that forum, nothing worse than filtering out opinions just because they might hurt someone's feelings. (Which usually indicated the hurt party is wrong. )

Anyway, Love you guys and this forum... so please dont start moderating my posts. lol!

-Tremendous

Warseer ruins my mood. I think I'm gonna quit visiting that Forum.. again. It saddens me that participants of the same hobby can have the bad taste of being such incredible douche-bags toward one another, because it's completely alien to my own experiences of warhammer with my long time friends.. and indeed alien to the Daemonic Legion as well.

It's become a sad place, Warseer. And maybe it's always been that way, beats me.