Thunder stomp, breath weapon and 'Axe and whip', Double checks

Three quick double checks on some rules. What does does actually happen?

1, when a GD is in a challenge are thunder stomps lost against a non infantry character. Also what happen if the character is in a unit of infantry (rare to see but??). Can the stomps be directed against the unit?
2, breath weapon in a challenge, can not be directed against the character if he in a unit but do hit the unit?

3, very old question no-doubt : Bloodthisters have 7 attack but they have two hand weapons, Axe and Whip ( hand weapon ) . I'm very happy with 7 attacks but should I be attacking with 8???

To answer your first question,

When your in a challenge for combat purposes pretend the unit no longer exsists, its just your character and their's. Therefore if the character your GD is in a challenge with isnt Infantry, a Warbeast, or a swarm then your thunderstomp attacks are lost. If the character your GD is in a challenge with IS Infantry, a warbeast, or a swarm then all of your thunderstomp is directed against the character. When in a challenge you can't direct attacks against the unit.

Same rule applies to the breath weapon attack. In a challenge all of the breathweapon attacks are directed at the character your in the challenge with, they CANT go on the unit he is with.

As for your Blood thirster. The extra attack is already in his attack profile. You get 7 attacks. Not 8.

-Tremenodus

Everything Tremendous said is correct.

Also worth keeping in mind:
If you are in a Challange with a Character that is either Infantry, Warbeast or Swarm and kill that character before having used your Thunder Stomp you effectively forfeit your T-Stomp for that Combat Round. (You can't stomp the unit because you're on a challange, and the guy you were fighting in a challange is dead)

If my BT fights in challenge with a Dragon lord and I kill the dragon, can I thunderstomp the rider?

Absolutely!

-Tremendous

Good, I thought so but decided to double check it .

Thank you for the quick and great replies.

Just to confuse things a bit, but I'm not sure the answers to questions 1 & 2 are correct.

While the part about not being able to target the unit is true (as per the FAQ), Thunderstomps and Breath weapons are still resolved as shooting attacks and so wouldn't normally be able to target the character either. While the FAQ says these special attacks can't hit models not in a challenge, it doesn't say that you single out characters in the unit when you normally wouldn't be able to. It may be that is the intention of the FAQ answer (as many people seem to have been playing it that way), but it doesn't explicitly say so and if you follow RAW strictly I don't think its allowed either.

To me, Thunderstomps, etc when fighting characters in units in a challenge isn't really resolved by the FAQ answer, other than to say you can't stomp/breath on the unit themselves. The only situation it really resolves is if you are in a multiple combat with a character outside of a unit (who you are fighting in a challenge) and another unit.

Sorry buddy but your incorrect. In a challenge its simply your character vs your opponents character. Basically its like a combat inside a combat but no one else is in the unit.

In fact in the rules it states you can take both character models out of there units and put them in BtB with eachother to the side and resolve the combat like that if you cant manuver them into BtB in their bricks. (For example when base sizes are incompatible, An orc in a goblin unit for instance, obviously the orc cant fit into the goblin unit so you take the orc and his opponent in the challenge are removed from their units and placed to the side in BtB to fight out their challenge)

So for the purposes of Breathweapons and thunderstomp the only target they have is the character they are in the challenge with. Which means not only can they be targeted but they are the only legal target those abilites have.

I don't have my BRB on me right now but if you read over the challenge rules its pretty clear.

-Tremendous

I've always played it the same as JonathanC does, going by what the FAQ says. Same for Breath weapons.

It's all because they're allocated like shooting attacks, so they have to go onto Rank and File first.

so you're saying a character with a T stomp and a breath weapon can't use them in a challenge if they're fighting another character?

If that character is inside a unit - yes.

Also, to come back to one of the points Tremendous raised, nowhere in the challenge rules does it say you can take the characters out of the units to fight the challenge. The rules instead say that if the two challengers can't be placed in base to base with each other by moving them within their units then you just 'assume' they are.

Very interesting.
So this seems like an obvious RAW vs RAI issue, in the end.
A typical example of GW only fixing half the problem when they actually manage to FAQ something.

It's a good thing you brought it up JonathanC because we pride ourselves by usually following RAW pretty strictly in my group, so I'll definately have to bring this subject up with them.

As far as opinions go, I think it's a bit too counter-intuitive for BreatheWeapons and Stomps to be completely nullified in this way by Challanges with infantry-chars inside enemy units.

That being said, there's nothing strictly wrong with what JonathanC and Dezartfox is saying. The rules (thus far) manages to leave BreatheWeapons and Stomp in a damn 'limbo' situation of vaguely conflicting rules - despite having been adressed already by official amendment!

Impressive.

You might be right that RAI was that you should be able to use those attacks in challenges, but if thats how it was meant to work they could have just said so easily enough as part of their answer in the FAQ. Because it isn't said explicitly I would therefore have to roll a D6 for it to see which interpretation applies if my opponent and I disagreed, as that's the only fair way I can see of resolving it.

Gah... 'roll offs' *shudders*

We hates them, stinky, stupid, roll-offs.. *haha*

The only solution 100% guaranteed to leave everyone wholly unsatisfied!

But you are correct, of course, JonathanC - all my joking aside RAW indicates BreatheWeapons&Stomps are simply 'turned off' in the vast majority of challanges.

Going by that ruling, I almost feel we should take another look at the cost of those Monster/Characters in our Lord Section..