regarding your book ideas, a thought from a non daemon player

Hi guys, i didn't want to jump in on your mammoth book thread, but just wanted to throw something at you.

I play high elves, and against Daemons often(also dark elves and empire). You guys are tough to beat, very tough to beat well. But here's the thing, i don't mind bloodletters at 12pts(ASF helps granted) and i don't mind Kairos (Teclis) or Kippers or Flamers or fiends or any of that stuff.

The one thing that irritates me is Gifts, as they "break" the format of the game, in the same way that teclis and the book "break" the magic phase. (which i would be happy to lose in the next High Elf book as long as we can generate dice.)

So to my point, how would you react to making gifts work in the same way as Magic items? They can be cancelled by talismans and runeshields (and Vauls unmaking), are all 0-1 including dispel scrolls,(like the rest of us now). As an upside, you should be able to use the main rulebook's magic items, although only Khorne marks/units can take magic armour.

Anyway, that's my sole gripe with daemons and as you guys have put so much thought into your next book i wanted to see your reaction.

Just FYI, i don't complain about daemons or think you're that overpowered these days,

Please don't crucify me!

No worries man. Thanks for the input. I imagine you'll get at least a handfull of responses from the respective Forum members here who's been active in the New DoC Book thread that I started I-don't-know-how-long-ago.

Before I get down to talking about Gifts let me retort to a couple of things in your post:

I'm glad to see you say that you don't think Daemons 'as a whole' are overpowered in 8th Edition. I personally stop taking people seriously very quickly when they go about stuff as though we're still in 7th. So that's a good basis for taking you seriously.

Secondly, nerfing sole items that break the game has partly been a focus-subject of our project. I guess it's the high cost that let Kairos through that process pretty much unscathed (well, every other GD got another wound except him, but his 'magic' is essentially the same). Your post will perhaps prompt us to go back and have another look at Kairos. I don't play with Special Characters personally, so my experience/involvement in them is limited.

But when it comes to virtually every other aspect of Daemons that I have seen people 'whine' about we have indeed dealt with alot:
The Masque (half as good), Skulltaker (50% cost increase), Master of Sorcery (100% cost increase), Despair Icon (half as good), Siren Song (totally *gone* in comparison) and quite alot of other things..

You might be 'ok' with Bloodletters costing 12pts but I've seen quite alot of people argue for them costing much more than the humble 13pts we have suggested raising their cost to. But again, I'm sorta relieved that you arn't telling us they should be 16pts and have their Strength reduced (as some real 'non-daemon-players' would argue I'm sure).

We did decide early on though to build on the current Army Book. This meant keeping some broad stokes concerning Daemons that, admittedly, I have seen people complain about as well: Army Wide Wardsave, Instability, and Daemonic Gifts.

This is essentially no different than us having kept Runes (if it was a Dwarf re-write), or Big Names (had this been an Ogre re-write), or Vampiric Powers (had this been a VC re-write), or Speed of Asyrian (had it been a High Elf re-write).

I've seen this very general statement before; About the duplication of Daemonic Gifts somehow 'breaking' the game. I must say I have never quite understood it, and perhaps you could explain a little further what it is exactly that makes you pinpoint Daemonic Gifts as the 'sole' problem with Daemons. (?)

It's an honest question. I am keen to understand this finally.

Because as I am sure you are aware Daemonic Gifts do represent the background of Daemons. How they do not come from "this world" (which is why it really makes no sense that they'd have access to Magic Items), and add to this the fact that they have no Mundane Equipment:
Take "Armour of Khorne" for example. It's one thing to say that an "item" such as Spellbreaker should be 0-1 for the sake of fairness, but drawing all Gifts across the same line doesn't work.

I am work over here, so I am far from finnished in replying to this topic. But at the moment I gotta run, leaving this half way.
Thanks again for shown interest and feedback!

Thanks for the kind reply DaemonReign, let me explain what my issue is, i haven't given a great deal of thought about how best to fix it and i'm sure you guys will have a better idea than me.

It's not really the duplicate gifts that i mind, it's useful but not "broken". I should clarify, i don't mean broken = unplayable/overpowered as many will assume i do, i mean it doesn't mix with other armies abilities.

What i find irritating from a gameplay point of view is that you can't affect gifts (with the exception of standards, which confuses me) with spells and magic items that affect every other race, so if i'm trying to counter dark elves, empire and daemons, a number of options seem great against the other 2 but wasted points against daemons.

I also dont like the entire army has magic attacks, but that would just be wrong to lose - it's daemons, it's just irritating from a gameplay perpective, especially as forlaiths robes are useless against you (immune to non magic attacks) so i never use them, and i'd like to occasionally.

Sorry if i'm not being constructive or concise, i'm off work ill, only had 4 hours last night and have been bored for days!

Thanks for humouring me, i'll look forward to your response. (Kairos is fine, could you make the ward save 4+ instead of 3+?)

Final note, i like the army wide ward save, works fine with lack of armour, and instability seems pretty good to me too, watching daemons pop after losing a combat is part of the pleasure of playing against them! and daemons shouldn't run away, THAT would be crazy! So it's just the gifts you need to convince me on!

Kairos going to 4+ Wardsave might actually be a very good idea! I will seriously bring that up in the "New DoC Book" thread.

I understand your reservation about Gifts being 'immune' at Magic Items that target other Magic Items. That's actually not something I concider as 'holy' as the concept of Gifts itself - what I mean to say is that I would not throw a fit if GW FAQ'd Daemonic Gifts so that they worked like Magic Items in every way except for that 0-1 restriction.

Another solution I would like even more would be if other army books got some specific Daemon Counters - so to speak. It's wierd, now that you mention it, that there arn't any Magic Items in the BRB that specifically target Daemonic Gifts..

It wouldn't take many of them, and it wouldn't ruin Daemons either, if there was a handfull of Items that worked equally against Gifts and Items.

On the subject of removing Gifts, I don't think it would as simple as to just let Daemons gain access to the same set of Items available to most other races (all except Dwarves). The reason is that you'd trade the possibly 'unfair' advantage of Gifts with the positively 'unfair' Daemons would have with alot of these Magic Items.

You'd get Stubborn Bloodthirsters with 4+ Wardsave in no time. I mean: I imagine you have a Daemon player somewhere in your social circle, just try to "play-test" giving Daemons these "new" restrictions:
1 - All Gifts are 0-1.
2 - All Items that effects Magic Items also effect Daemonic Gifts.
3 - Daemons have full access to BRB Magic Items.

Without even having tried it, I'm pretty sure you'd pretty quickly find yourself having an even harder time against Daemons!

I understand what you mean about Magical Attacks, too. And again you're right: Warhammer is simply a very background-driven Game, and one of the few games where grand hyperboles in the fluff actually are mirrored inside the actual game-mechanics. Dark Elves, Daemons, Warriors of Chaos. They are described as powerfull, and they are powerfull too.

When it comes to Instability alot of us are starting to fear that we'll lose it soon, and instead get the Unstable Rule just like the Undead.
Another 'change' I would personally really dislike.

*Damn it.. At work. Like I said. I will continue this though, rest assured.*

I dont think you have justified your premise to begin with. You mention gifts 'breaking' the 'format of the game' in the same way that teclis and book breaks the magic phase, yet admit that gits arent broken...so how is that in the same way at all??? It isnt.

What really bothers you is simply that they dont work like other armies magic items do. So what? Different is good! Its one of the things that really draw me to them. Dwarves dont use magic items in the same way, should we take that away? You mention planning for certain magic items, well I plan to counter casters with my ogre army, which is all useless against a dwarven army...oh well.

Your army breaks the whole initiative step! Shall we do away with that? I could go on, but I hope this is clear...different is good.

And yeah, youd have to do better than giving us magic items....how about great weapons, heavy armour, shields, bows, etc.? How about letting our lords hide in units like other lords? Or making the list of gifts open to all characters (with some exceptions) instead of the very limited list mostly unique to *every* character?

I really think this is something that is a 'mental block' as it were. Daemons are different, learn to love it.

Thanks for taking the time to respond guys,

@DaemonReign, glad you like the ward save idea, but i should mention we currently house rule that uber spells only do 1 wound to characters, so kairos can't be pitted in one turn. I don't mind Kairos, Tzeench should have an awesome spellcaster, ( I actually bought the model and painted it for my Brothers birthday present, awesome model, a nice change from my high elves to paint too.)

Obviously i hadn't thought through any possible fixes, i just thought you might appreciate an outsiders point of view, and i have the time at the moment! I would be over the moon with gifts working like magic items, or specific daemon counters in the brb would work too i guess.

@Talonz

Please don't read this as daemon hate, it's not. My best games, win losses and draws have all been against my brothers daemons in 8th edition. I like the fluff and the special characters, (we like them, i know many don't but he's actually disappointed if i don't bring teclis!)

Regarding Dwarf runes, they work EXACTLY like magic items with the problem i'm talking about, can be nullified by magic items(talisman of saphery, runeshield etc) and can be drained by vauls unmaking. The point about Dwarves having no magic casters is a good one. you've got me there. Although them not having something is not quite the same as everyone else not having something to counter gifts.

I did say that gifts aren't unplayable, i was trying to clarify what i meant by the term "broken". I don't think teclis or the book of hoeth are unplayable either, just break the mechanics of the game. if you want to get into that debate then i can. but i'll leave it there for now.

Regarding ASF, you're right, it's a lazy fix in my opinion, i'm not a fan of that either, i'd rather they remove that for everyone but swordmasters and sort out some of the other balance issues, i.e rubbish core. but you guys don't want to re-write the High elf book(do you?) so i'll stop there too.

As i said, i'm not a daemon hater, i enjoy playing them as they are and will continue to do so, but as you guys have put so much effort into your re-write i thought you might appreciate an outside viewpoint.

Quote
"And yeah, youd have to do better than giving us magic items....how about great weapons, heavy armour, shields, bows, etc.? How about letting our lords hide in units like other lords? Or making the list of gifts open to all characters (with some exceptions) instead of the very limited list mostly unique to *every* character?"

Did you read DaemonReign's comment? i think that covers this, stubborn 4+ ward bloodthirsters for a start. he made a good point, my "fixes were off the top of my head, i'll leave that up to you, and please feel free to ignore this input too i won't mind and i'll still enjoy playing against daemons!

Sorry if you thought (or still think) that i'm having a go at you guys,i'm really not. I wish we'd do something like this at ulthuan.net, a couple have tried but met a lot of hostility(that may be a little strong!)

I've downloaded the latest pdf of your book suggestions and i'll have a proper look at it today. i can give you my thoughts when i have if you're interested?

Yeah in our Campaign the players opted for me to have access to BRB items through character trades etc. and it is really messed up how strong I could make my characters (currently bartering 2 HE Heroes for the Sword of Bloodshed on my Dark Insanity Bloodthirster!) I'm not pushing the issue this just made me think of it!

As a multi-army collector I have to say playing against Daemons is a blast one of the most satisfying victories around (asides from WoC w/my VC)! Glad to see your interest and an un-biased opinion is always welcom in the DoC thread.

It's actually very exciting to get an outsider peaking in on our little project! It's f:ing great you downloaded the latest version of RealVeon's PDF - this sort of feedback from the opposite end of the table - as it were - is exactly the kind of stuff we need. It seems to me you're not making up illusions for youself either; You undertand that we probably arn't gonna satisfy your every opinion. For example: Removing the basic 'premise' of Daemonic Gifts is just not something we're going to do at this point - not to be coy or anything but if you had made your observations maybe 60-70 'pages ago' there'd been another sort of 'freedom'.

Being Daemon players ourselves I suppose these things are close to heart for us. I think alot of us feel that now - in 8th Edition - when core mechanics have suddenly removed Daemons from that 'top-of-the-proverbial-pile' status, we just want to enjoy our Daemons for what they are and forget about having this pariah-status in the last edition.

As a breif anectdote, after having collected OnG back in 4th/5th Ed I came back in 7th. Our local group needed an evil race and I found myself really liking the aesthetic of Daemons - so I collected a few thousand points and then one thing led to the other and I went on the internet Forums and started talking to people.. And I tell you, if I hadn't found this Forum (The Daemonic Legion) I'd probably regret these social activities all together - because the first Forum I joined was Warseer and let me tell you that it felt very poor to be written off by such a 'majority' as simply being a poor sportsman, WAAC douche, simply second rate player all together - by definition! - simply for the choice of actually liking Daemons to the same extent that every true Warhammer-muppet is nuts about his/her own little collection.

So here's the world's smallest violin playing for all the poor Daemon players out there.. *lol* Nah.. Don't feel sorry for Daemons (of course). But the way things were in 7th does explain a little bit about where at least I am coming from now, in 8th Edition, in my personal sentiments on how Daemons should be revamped etcetera.

I've always been a big fan of the original Warhammer philosophy. The background driven mechanics. In later years there's risen this movement of ETC balance fanatisism that I personally don't find appealing, or suiting, for Warhammer at all. I'm probably a minority in that regard, even on this Forum.
So of course I want a semblance of balance in the game. It goes without saying that everyone should always have a rather good chance of actually 'winning'. But if associated rules makes that ratio 60-40 rather than a strict 50-50 I must shamefully admit that I prefer that - so help me..
And I definately don't have to be on the 'winning side' either. Been dabbling alot in MonoGod lists lately (you can read some batreps of that if you click on my signature) and that's certainly an uphill struggle at times.

Being a fan of Warhammer in general makes me like all the variety that is 'allowed' to our various races. I am a big supporting of the Dwarf Runic system. When I see people rant and rave about your SoA I get the same allergic reaction as when people whine about the Army Wide hatred of Dark Elves, about cannons doing D6 wounds, about the Purple Sun not allowing LookOutSir-rolls, about Steadfast not being cancelled by disruption (alone), and so on..

I even thought the White Dwarf 'Errata' of the Power Scroll was an unnecessary and rather bleak change - despite not having access to that Item with my Daemons (of course) and despite getting screwed alot of times because of it.

As for the things Talonz added to the discussion; Well I think he makes a lot of good points, and he usually does, all though he rarely expresses himself in a very 'diplomatic' way.

Basically, my sentiment on Daemonic Gifts has a couple of facettes:
1 - As Talonz, I like variety. In my opinion there are far too many races in Warhammer that rely on "the same" shared Magic Items. Dwarves and Daemons stand apart from this and that status should be protected like an endangered animal in my opinion.
2 - Daemonic Gifts are almost perfect in the background-related sense. They are not 'Magic Items' but traits past on down from the Daemonic Masters to their minions, which is why the 0-1 restriction makes a ton of sense really. I also don't believe the 'duplication' in itself is a problem - it's rather a case of certain Gifts being totally 'wrong' (especially in 8th Ed) and we've gone to quite some length to fix such items (i.e. Siren Song, Master of Sorcery, at the top of my head). The 'duplication' business also allows for Daemonic Gifts to cover both "Magic Items" and "Mundane Equipment" as we have noted before - Armour of Khorne comes to mind here as a good example.
3 - I basically don't think Daemons should have Magic Items, or Mundane Equipment. We did analyse the possibility but a while into that it just looked wrong (mundane equipment, that is). And like I said earlier giving Daemons access to Magic Items would most likely create much more flagrant balance-problems than Gifts ever did (yes, the StatLines and Special Rules of Daemons would have synergies with alot of Magic Items that virtually no Mortals have - I mentioned the Stubborn 4++ Bloodthirster and that wasn't an example of something 'good' we'd get out of this, but rather an example of why it should never happen. Such a Bloodthirster would be able to win most games all by his lonesome.

As a reference, we discussed adding a "Stubborn" Gift to Daemons. We eventually found that such a Gift would have to cost at least 75pts, and still we found its contingencies to be so great, the venue of abuse so appearant, the risk of being broken so overwhelming, that we simply dropped the whole idea!

What I take with me from this conversation, however, are your specific thoughts concerning the 'immunity' of Daemonic Gifts. That's the sort of detailed and 'specific' complaint that I personally like and respect - unlike simply stating the obvious like 'they can do this and that, nobody else can, it's unfair!!' (i.e. the duplication).

And like I said earlier I think the optimal solution would have been if there had been items sprinkled in other Army Books that specifically dealt with Daemonic Gifts. But I'll bring up the topic of making Gifts susceptible to Items that nullify Magic Items in the New DoC Book thread. I don't want you to get your hopes up though, just saying that my gut-reaction is that I see some merit in this complaint and that it at least deserves an honest debate.

We are also drafting quite extensive Designer's Notes for this re-write. You can find this draft on my Third Post on the first page of the New DoC Book Thread. At this moment I think one consequence of your initiative will be that we flesh out those Notes concerning the Daemonic Gifts - at least bringing up the issue of this 'immunity'.

On the other hand, I believe alot of races in Warhammer (while not having Items that specifically target Gifts) indeed have alot of gadgets at their disposal that are good in general and doubly nasty against Daemons. There are cheap items that forces you to re-roll successfull wardsaves, there's stuff like the Hellheart (seemingly a very nasty item for crippling expensive Greater Daemons with magic levels), there's the Ld-based "shooting attacks" of the VC, the ability for 'cheap' races to overwhelm Daemons with saturation in terms of wounds.

Looking at High Elves, aside of Teclis (I don't bother much with Special Characters, like I said) the item that comes to mind is The Banner of the World Dragon (I think it's called), The Book of Hoeth, and probably other items too. I have no experience of playing against High Elves in later Editions. On 'paper' I've always concidered them to be a formidable foe against Daemons - the strike first, they strike hard, the match Daemons with the same kind of elite status, and seem to have quite of few 'immune' mechanics of themselves (like the above mentioned army specific magic items).

Bottom line is I believe this is a tricky subject. There's a background related 'beauty' in the way Gifts work but I certainly understand how it can feel quite 'meh' at times to not have those Items that nullify Gifts (like you have for enemy Magic Items). GW has been pretty consistant with that though; For example "Obsidian Armour" doesn't negate Daemonic Gifts either. All though I understand if that is a small consolation.

I would personally appreach this 'issue' by seeing the challange of the siutation - essentially trying to use whatever means I have at my disposal in beating those Daemons, despite their Gifts. I gather from your posts that you do this, of course, and no you don't come off as a hater - on the contrary, I think by-and-large both you and your brother seem to have a very healthy approach to the game (my hat is off to anyone who 'wants' Teclis on the other side of the table! *lol*)

The reason why I'll actually bring up the issue of Kairos's wardsave is simply a certain Augment in the Tzeentch Lore that might have too heavy synergy with his Wardsave already being on 3++. Again, I'm basically just an unofficial moderator in that thread so it's not all up to me (and be glad for that, because I'm really a clown and without the help from the other guys in the New DoC book thread the result wouldn't be worth reading!).

And yes, it would be totally awesome if you and your brother gave that re-write a good a read and returned with some thoughts. We're pretty much at a final stage of crossing t's and dotting i's, and after that we'll start play-testing stuff over the comming months. If you guys would enjoy doing that, feel free!

I feel like I have gone on for long enough now. haha I tend to go on quite a bit I'm afriad. There's alot more I'd perhaps like to dwell on too, but for the sake of time-keeping perhaps we must also at some point agree to disagree on certain issues. Like I said, Talonz has a penchant for expressing himself rather bluntly but he does speak 'straight from the soul' of Daemon-players I think.

That being said, I hope starting this 'commentary-thread' has not been too dissappointing. Given that what you're essentially asking for is the removal of quite fundamental stuff I think perhaps you should put pride in having made enough of an argument/impression to at least get some tidbits into the discussion!

And you're right, too, most Forums pretty much suck and people are incapable of treating each other with respect, living out there pathetic little complexes by bashing each other on the webb. I concider and treat the Daemonic Legion as a sanctuary from all that crap, I know others do as well.

Edit
I missed your post Bonesaw.
As I you can see I was typing one of my own... *gah* - Did I just write all that?.. Jesus what's wrong with me...

Hi guys, thanks for taking the time to respond.

Wow, that's an impressive post DaemonReign, i can see how you managed to break the 100 page mark!

After reading your points, i'd like to say i think it really is the immunity issue that i don't like, i've pretty much covered why in previous posts. I agree that Different is good, and i should point out that i have absolutely no issue with how dwarf runes work, as they act like Magic items as opposed to gifts.

I agree with your view on the ETC comp, i think it's a bit over the top, having said that i'd happily give it a try if someone asked me, and i don't judge people for wanting the comp, it's just not my thing.

I hadn't really thought about your lack of mundane equipment(although i notice a sprinkling in your book re-write, but i haven't studied it properly yet!) and i you have a good point, and you want to deal with the least popular gifts, so i have no issue with the duplicate issue. you've convinced me!

As you have mentioned Talonz speaks for many daemon players viewpoint, can i ask, he didn't think i'd justified my premise, now i've refined my premise to just wanting them to act like other magic items, have i justified my premise with regards to this? if not tell me and i'll try to explain where i'm coming from.

Also, just a thought i had when playing against my brother, with your lord choices, Daemon princes seem to be sub-optimal shall we say. I know you're dealing with this in your thread, and i will look at that in detail soon, have you considered increasing their leadership to 10, they may be worse than a greater daemon in combat and magic etc, but would add a ld10 general option. I have not given this great thought, don't get me wrong, but would be interested to hear your views.

Thanks for your responses, i was expecting to be shot down flat! I'll definately have a chat with my brother about a playtest battle when you guys are at that point.

Gotta say i think the amount of effort you have put in is awesome, and i won't mind if you disregard everything i bring up, i'd like to do something like this for High elves, maybe one day!

We're basically at the play-testing stage now. Nothing fundamental is likely to change between the version of the pdf you downloaded and the one we'll be basing our own playtest-run on.

Daemon Prince
We have indeed added a Special Character Daemon Prince [Be'lakor, the Dark Master] and his suggested Leadership is 10.

But that's a Special Character, so a special case.

Daemons used to have access to Leadership 10 back in the "old days". But Instability was different back then: You rolled it just like now, but if you were unlucky enough to roll higher than your unmodified Leadership the entire unit popped (regardless of wounds left).

When Instability became the mechanic we know today the greatest leadership you could have as a Daemon player was reduced to 9 to balance the fact that Daemons are presently "unbreakable" with a better form of "unstable" (i.e. the 'chance' of mitigating losses by rolling low, or even getting the occasional Insane Courage).

So anyway.. Aside of adding a Special Character that happens to be a Daemon Prince that has Ld10 we decided early on to keep in line with the 'current' precedence of not letting Daemons get any "wider" access to Leadership 10. It's one of few weaknesses they have, and this re-write has not been about removing weaknesses.
Or strengths for that matter.. Better "internal balance" has really been the main goal, as well as more variety and more background-related mechanics (such as moving ld-debuffs more toward Slaanesh Daemons, for example!)

I did bring up the issue of Gifts in the actual re-write thread. There's been some responses to that, but like I said: Don't get your hopes up.

What we focused on was to strike down with surgical precision on the Gifts (as well as other items in the current DoC Book) that we have seen 'abused' throughout 7th Ed (and 8th Ed, of course). It has simply been our hope that if we remove the butter-cookie no-brain Gifts the fundamental principle of Daemonic Gifts will be an easier pill to swallow for WHFB-players at large.

So before resigning in dissappointment I really suggest you and your brother try to run a game or two with this re-write as basis. Being a High Elf player you will probably always lament the fact that you have a bunch of (pretty unique) Magic Items that nullifies magic Items (but not Daemonic Gifts) - for most other races that bit isn't a particular issue.

I only found out about that by reading what JonathanC told us all in the New DoC Book thread in his commentary to this subject. Sadly, the guy who collected high elves back in the "old days" sold off his collection and quit hobbying all together. So I am strictly speaking not very well versed with High Elves I'm afriad.

As for what Talonz said about "justifying your premise" .. English is not my first language and sometimes I find it hard to catch the meaning of things myself. Hopefully he'll be around to retort to you in person!

No worries notadaemon, I didn't see you as a daemonhater. I just get tired of hearing what seems like the same old arguments against unique daemonic traits just because they are different from other race's rules. The very fact that they are a complete 'race' of outsiders and work so differently from other races (And dont roll psych. tests!) are what drew me to the current daemons in the first place. (being a former 3rd ed. chaos player doesnt hurt either of course)

You have narrowed down your point to gifts not acting like magic items, near as I can tell. This to me is just personal preference, not a balance issue, so I can only say, stop focusing so much on anti-magic item effects perhaps? They are not magic items after all...

Gifts come with so many restrictions, and so do daemons (no basic items, no mundane equipment, and most importantly from my perspective no option to flee!!) Of course this is counterbalanced by many advantages as well, but thats the point...a very different army!

Any attempt to move them back towards the middleground (in homogenous rules, not balance) just muddles the whole beautiful attempt imo.

Hi Guys,

Having read your replies, and looked in on your mammoth thread. I can see why you would want to keep gifts working as they are, especially as you've dealt with the issue in a different way already.

Having listened to your arguments, i find myself not minding gifts as much as i did a week ago, so it's been helpful for me to have the discussion, i hope it was useful to you too.

I would just like to mention, although High elves do have access to a spell and an item that nullifies magic weapons, were not alone in that regard. I really wasn't bringing it up just from a high elf point of view, rather that it is a different game mechanic. However, i also only have experience with a limited number of armies, so i haven't encountered ogres or vampires for example. If i had perhaps i wouldn't mind as much, as others have rules that work in a similar way.

I'll see if i can get my brother to have a look at your pdf, he's crazy busy at work at the moment so may take a while, and if we get a playtest battle in i'll post a report on here for you to look at. Are you going to post any reports of playtests yourselves? i'd be really interested to see how they work out.

Thanks for enlightening me on some of my daemon issues.

I'll keep an eye on your progress, so if you have any questions you'd like to run past a non daemon player, if you reply on this thread i'll see it and give you my opinion, otherwise i'll put some points up in a day or so to let you know my thoughts on your re-write. Then maybe i'll leave you alone!

Thanks for reading.

I think we'd all be very interested to see what you have to say about the project, whether or not you manage to play any test-battles!

Any feedback (from anyone really) is better than no feedback at all.

Your input on Daemonic Gifts have actually yeilded at least the 'thought' of how they interact with 'rest of the game' to be awoken. People are still basically wanting to keep them pretty much as they are, but I saw someone argue for "Vauls unmaking" for example working against Daemonic Gifts (while the standard run-of-mill Magic Items still would not).

Hm yes.. Experience helps of course. Just as I had probably understood you a little better if I had indepth knowledge of High Elves, perhaps you're right that you might look differently on this subject if you had more experience of Big Names and Vampiric Powers.

Anyway, that's great if you feel that way: Like we actually gave you some new perspectives and if that makes you feel better about Daemons (playing with/against them) than that's just awesome. And like I said your 'impact' on our project was not nil-and-nothing either, as it at least made us reconcider some things that would normally have been concidered quite 'granted'.

EDIT
An idea that is being concidered right now is to make the spell "Vaul's Unmaking" effect Daemonic Gifts as though they were Magic Items. That would be a unique thing with Vaul's Unmaking actually written into the Daemon Army Book. Any thoughts on that? - And no we have not decided yet, but it was a serious suggestion brought forth!

Some feedback from daemon player (and no, i did not read 100-page thread):

Good job! In general, better balance, better units, better everything.

There is a lot of things i really like - signature spells, hidden Changeling, gifts, N'Kari...

According to fluff in current DoC Armybook from GW, N'Kari had some real big issues with HE. Maybe he should have Hatred(High Elves) rule?

I like how you made book (even base sizes for new units - cool), only minus is that on my computer (not so slow computer) it take some time before pages are fully displayed.

And did you try ideas from book on battlefield? from my little experience TheoryHammer is ok, but checking stuff in fight is really important.

Hi Guys, i've had a good read of your project and wanted to give you some feedback (as promised). I'll need to have another couple of read throughs and try a bit of anti elf list writing to spot everything i'd want to but here's my initial thoughts, in no particular order i'm afraid. Much of what i haven't commented on i liked, so sorry if this reads negatively,(although if i said i liked something then i really liked it!)

Flamers seem to have been boosted, and they are bloody good now, I don’t like the removal of modifers to hit on stand and shoot. I’m not sure about cavalry, but I assume they would then lose the skirmish rule so be unable to march and shoot, so if that’s the case I’m fine with it. If you can still fly march and shoot the I would say that’s just too good. Sorry.

Bloodletters, my gut reaction is I’d rather know what I’m facing, i.e they either have armour or they don’t. one of the few weaknesses of bloodletters is they are killable by strength 3 troops, giving them a 5+ armour saves makes them much more survivable against st 3. Thinking about it, strength 3 shooting will be much less effective too, not sure about it from a gameplay perspective, even taking into account the point cost, MR2 option I like, very Khorne, no complaints.

Khorne gifts, 12 inch sniper shot from a bloodthirster would be nasty. Bye bye mages.

Tzeentch gift scrutionous gaze is situational, but seems too cheap for such a useful ability. I find that trait of Vauls unmaking can be extremely useful, in certain situations. Of course the more you know what to expect, the less useful it becomes. So it may be less of an issue for tournament players, (who tend to do a lot of the complaining!)

I like the changes to siren song and master of sorcery, and adding the option of an extra spell from a further gift is a nice compromise. High Elves get this for 10 points, I don’t think that would be too cheap as you’ve softened master of sorcery.

Banner of Martial Pride, seems too much to me, sorry. I know it’s a bsb only and there are other great options for that, but my immediate reaction is NOOOOOOOOO. Sorry! I will look at it again when i'm not as tired maybe my reaction is a bit strong, but i wasn't a fan, maybe because i wouldn't want to face it. Especially the Wizard taking a strength 6 hit for any spell cast at the unit.

Banner of intoxication, No problem for me but I’m high Elves, I don’t really utilize steadfast. For empire skaven goblins etc, this could be killer. Not sure if you’d help Daemons overpowered image with this standard. By that I mean it may actually look much better to other armies than it does to Daemon generals, (or indeed than it is in practice)

I know you’re still discussing Daemonprince’s. I’d put my vote for Ld9, and I wouldn’t demand a point increase either, I’d like these to be as viable an alternative to greater daemon’s as possible. I also have no problem with him not being a large target or the flying gift. Also, why not start his magic levels from 35 points, then 35 points per level? Would this make him too good in comparison to greater daemons for his cost? just my 2pennies worth.

I like universal Loremaster on the Lord of change.

Like the new units at first glance, will look at them in more detail.

I’m not sure about BSB’s having icon’s and gifts, but otherwise a khorne bsb cant take armour, so I see why you’ve kept it, as gifts represent mundane equipment options also.

Armour on the bloodletters I’m still not sure on, maybe if they counted as special if they take heavy armour? I worry about seeing lots of armoured bloodletters with anti shooting and anti-magic gifts, alongside flying flamers and a Lord of Change (or kairos if it was my brother!) That would be nasty indeed.
Crackling explosions on the horrors concerns me, but I am T3 with 5+ armour so that may be partly race specific.

Love that you’ve added N’kari, very prominent in the high elf fluff, if I can get a play test game in, I’ll get my brother to try him out. Awesome.

Sorry if this seems negative, it’s an impressive piece of work, presented very nicely too. It will take me weeks to look through it properly and work out the combinations I wouldn’t want to face, but I’m off work sick at the moment and this is a wonderful distraction from feeling awful. So if you completely ignore me I don’t mind. (and i'm grateful for the distraction!)

Sorry the order of my comments has no relation to the order you have written the book. My brain is fried and I was scrolling up and down all over the place. Only 2 hours sleep last night has apparently effected my ability to use a mouse.

Sorry about the huge post, I’ve caught it from DaemonReign!