2400 hard core deomon list, Help me with a 2400 list

[Kris]

I have a great opportunity to get a already and good painted deamons army. I could use some good advice how to build a good army list of 2400 points. I am a noob with deamons. It has the following models.
1 keeper of secrets
1 daemon prince (kan als bloodthirster worden gebruikt)
1 masque of slaanesh
mounted herald bsb of slaanesh
herald of khorne
herald of khorne bsb
herald of theenz

1x 30 bloodletters, fc
1x 20 bloodletter, fc
1x 30 horrors met filler, fc
12 daemonettes, fc
6 seekers, fc
1x 5 furies
1x 5 furies
6 flamers
1 fiend

Are flamers still good?

[brother_maynard]

Take the prince, seekers, and horrors out. then print this list and put it on your wall. Throw darts at it and take those choices and you'll be fine.

[Noisy Assassin]

Welcome aboard!

There are a couple of routes you could take here, You could add magic levels to the Keeper, take the Masque, and give the Slaanesh BSB the Great Icon of Despair for Ld-Bombing, but I haven't ever played that style, so I'll leave it to others to give you a sample list there. Also, it seems like a very tricky list to build and play well, so if you are starting with Daemons probably better to go for something more traditional.

I would recommend something like the following:

Lords (550)
550 - Keeper: Spirit Swallower

Heroes (600)
175 - Herald of Khorne: Obsidian Armor, BSB

140 - Herald of Khorne: Armor of Khorne, Firestorm Blade

120 - Herald of Slaanesh: Torment Blade, Siren Song (use the Masque model)

165 - Herald of Tzeentch: Master of Sorcery (Light), Spellbreaker

Core (980)
295 - 20 Bloodletters: FC, Icon of Endless War (FSB Herald goes here)

390 - 30 Bloodletters: FC (BSB goes here)

175 - 12 Daemonettes: FC, Rapturous Standard (Slaanesh Herald obviously goes here)

60 - 5 Furies

60 - 5 Furies

Rare (265)
210 - 6 Flamers

55 - 1 Fiend

Total: 2,395

This gives you a pretty solid foundation actually. I'd want more Daemonettes, but the small unit can either pull in a Deathstar and hold for a round with the stubborn banner, allowing you a flank, or they can go pick on little stuff. The big Bloodletter block and the Keeper are pretty much point, click, kill type units. Not a whole lot of finesse required there. Small unit of Bloodletters can take out stuff like Hell Pit Aboms or Hydras, and the extra charge range from the flag makes them great surprise flankers too. Furies and the Fiend are there for redirection and war machine hunting. Flamers are definitely still good. As they can march and shoot with 8th, they are actually really scary. You could fiddle around and try out the Horrors (would involve losing the 'Nettes, some Bletters, and some upgrades), but if you're buying everything in one go they can just be something to switch things up once you get the swing of the list. Seekers are very hard to use well, and almost everyone here will warn you against using them. Only good use seems to be in Ld-bomb lists or if you get lucky. Oh yes, and Prince is quite bad as well.

Cheers!

[Kris]

Thanks for the replies guys. Th deamon prince is good painted and converted so he can be used as a blood thirster GD.

I thought the pink horrers in a big block could be nice for some supporting shooting in the magic fase and be a tough cookie with a 4+ Ws with a herald.

I think the seekers would be nice for pressure on a flank, that combined with a fiend and two units of furies and a flying GD would be prettynasty with playing mndtricks on the opponent. The deamonettes are a small bonus from the battalion box I guess.

Noisy, what's the point for takig a herald of zteentch when i don't have a tzeentch unit?

Hope to hear from you again.

Cheers kris

[Noisy Assassin]

Thirster or Kipper, either one works. You can try out both GDs and see which you like better. I've only tried the Kipper, but I LOVE him, and with Spirit Swallower is pretty forgiving.

Some people find good use for Horrors as anvils, but remember, the Tzerald is super squishy and will probably die in the first round of combat. Then no more 5+ ward. Plus, I think Daemons are more suited to an aggressive playstyle that doesn't really need anvils. As for magic, the bolts are nice, but even when I roll max winds of magic I still don't have enough dice to satisfy a loremaster Herald. He knows 7 spells, usually at least 4 of which are worth trying to cast in a given turn. Add in the fact that he's only a lvl 2 and you need a lot of dice. Other big reason people take Horrors is to get the extra lvls for dispelling, but I haven't ever had too much of an issue with that. As for your question about the Tzerald, one with Master of Sorcery is the first thing you should write down in any Daemon list you make, unless it is a mono-god theme. Period. He's just that good. He doesn't have too much of a problem outside of units, because if he's near other infantry he gets a 4+ Look Out Sir save, followed by a 4+ ward save. Only things to watch out for are stuff like Eagles which can try and come eat you. That's what Furies and Fiends are for stopping though.

And regarding Seekers, well, sadly, they won't put much pressure on anybody. They don't deal a lot of damage, and die to a stiff breeze. Combining them with Furies won't help, as they have pretty much the same problems. Except that Furies can fly over units to get to warmachines, and are dirt cheap.

[LAV-Kitsune-]

You really do not have that much models to build different kinds of lists. Mostly your choises will be limited on what kind of gifts you get to your characters and which characters you will be buying. I mean, if you dont count characters and drop those seekers for good (they are really bad), you only got 1609pts. So the choise is more between having a Bloodthirster or Keeper of Secrets. If you would go with Thirster then you could use the horrors as well, but if you pick Ld bombing KoS like Noisy suggested, I would definately drop out those horrors as well.

[Kris]

Thanks again for the replies guys,

I teally like the looks of my new army, it's got an awesome base theme and nice coherent look in the army itself.

Thanks for the list you wrote noisy, i was thinking in what way to extend the army to make it a bit tougher. Should I buy more deomonettes to upgrade it to 30, and do you play nettes in a hord or 5 wide 6 rows? Or are the hounds the way to go?

I liked your list noisy, and I figured out the following list myself. I want to try them both.

Bloodthirster, Armour of khorne, immortal fury, collar of khorne

Tzeentch hero Master of Sorcery (lore of life)
Khorne hero BSB, Icon of despair, armour of khorne, spell breaker
Khorne hero, Armour of khorne

20 bloodletters, champ, bnr, icon of Endless war
30 bloodletters, champ, bnr, icon of Endless war
30 pink horrors, champ, bnr, icon of sorcery
5 furies
5 furies

5 flamers

Again your toughts are welcome, for this list. I will try them both and see if i like the horrors. But then again, toughts of what to buy extra to make a hard allround 2400 army list. Just for fun to teach some hard players with big mounths that can't stand losing a lesson. Maybe for using in a hard core tournament once in a while...

[Daimyo79]

The problem with the Kipper and a Thirster is that in a Tournament environment they are both big early points loses in some games due the fact that there are so many more cannons around now.............

I tend to run a 4 Herald list at 2400 pts

[Noisy Assassin]

Couple of things on the list you wrote up.

First, on gifts. Spellbreaker cannot be taken by a Herald of Khorne. But that's okay, because it could go on the Thirster or Herald of Tzeentch instead. Also, the Thirster already has MR, so collar isn't all that necessary on him. Also, an Errata ruled that Daemonic Icons are magic standards, which means only one per army. So both Bloodletter units can't have one.

Then onto the Lore. You'll see it all over this forum, but Life isn't a very good fit for Daemons. It's only an okay Lore in general without Throne of Vines up and running, and with only a Lvl 2 (and another caster in the list) you won't have enough dice to try and get through Vines and enough other useful spells. It is also a very short range Lore, and as the Thirster will be operating in a flanking/supporting role, he'll usually be way too far away to benefit from the Lore Attribute, which is probably the best part of Life. With your list as an all-comers I would go with Light, which has the best synergy with all the Khorne stuff you've got (Bloodletters buffed with Light are like Rambo on crack) or Beasts to help the Horrors out and for some damage spells. Metal can also be pretty good if you face a lot of high armor targets like WoC.

[bonesaww666]

I find the BT better then the Keeper as he can fly this opens up a tad more possabilities then the keeper, place him behind a unit so that the cannon ball has to pass through them first... I know he can't regenerate wounds but he does get an armour save which helps along with re-rolling to hit. There is nothing more infuriating then having a GD tank on the offensive when you fail 75% of his to hit rolls...

[Daimyo79]

normal troops aren't going to stop a cannonball hitting the Thirster only Crushers and Fiends have a chance of stopping one as the cannonball has to kill them outright.

[Kris]

Hey noise thanks or your thoughts again, only i don't agree with the magic banners. The rules say that there is only one character that can use a magic BSB (in this case th BSB herald of khorne wit a magic icon what counts as a magic banner according to the errata) the other magic banner users are champions in that way its is permitted to carry more magic banners in one army, only one hero can use magic banners when he is carring a BSB.

For the spell breaker your right, but he can use a common scroll from the rulebook as a magic item instead of a gift f the gods.

[Mr X]

Kris, I think Noise is correct on this one. In the BRB under Magic Items they have the Unique rule which says you can only have one of each magic item in your army. I can't see anything in the demon book that overrides that so unfortunately you can only have one of each banner in your army.

Also there isn't anything under the Herald of Khorne entry that allows him to take common magic items so you can't take a dispel scroll either.

[Noisy Assassin]

As much as I wish it weren't so, you're mistaken on both counts. Magic items are a 1/army deal, and since GW decided to muck it up and declare that our banners are magic items, each one can only be taken once. Also, none of our characters have the option to take common magic items. So no real Dispel Scroll for us

[Kris]

I was wrong about the spellbreaker. But the magic banners I believe I am still right. Also checked it with our guru in the netherlands who knows the rules quite good and is a refferee on the big tournaments. Only one hero is allowed to carry a magic banner, if he is the BSB. The other magic banner carriers are normal standard bearers who can carrie also a magic banner as explained in the armybook. The rule book says nothing about a limited banners even with the errata for deamons. The deamonic gifts are not considered as magic items, where only one item can be used as the magic items in the rulebook. There also only allowed for some units, as explained in the rulebooks.

I don't mnd being wrong. And on the big tournaments in the netherlands this build is allowed so I think i can stick to it. But I appreciate everybodies remarks.