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Pages: (12) « First ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... Last » ( Go to first unread post )

 New ETC restrictions, Which daemon lists will shine?
DaemonReign
Posted: Mar 18 2012, 06:03 PM


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While I agree with you on the strongest terms, Tremendous, I have to say if the guys who play in these events want to have a level-headed discussion about the details of the ETC then let them. I think the topic starter has already gone one round (in this thread) scolding some of us (including me) for going wildly off-topic and stating 'political' arguments just like you.

Again, I agree with you, and we come from that same place: There isn't an ETC restriction as far as the eye can see at my club. Couldn't be happier personally.

I agree about the "powertrip" thing. But I think you should take it easy with just concluding that they're doing it to rubb the backs of their friends. On the contrary, I think their intention is genuine, it's just it's a futile intention.

So a bit of moderation is in place. And for some of us "boycotting" stuff is easy enough, but others - alas - would find themselves with scarcely any games to play.

But yeah.. It would be a beautifull thing indeed if players around the world just said "No" to stuff like this. Since that's not gonna happen, people like you (and me!) even posting in threads like this is probably only gonna add to the 'divide' between the pro-compers and the 'other side'.

And back on topic: Why they don't just play Random Scenarios and throw all the other garbage out is something I'll never understand. It doesn't get any more balanced than not knowing what kind of mission you'll need your army to perform. Oh well..


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JonathanC
Posted: Mar 18 2012, 07:49 PM


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Judging by some of you comments brother_maynard I guess you and I probably have quite different ideas on how to use Beastmen and what they need to be competitive. I have to say I haven't used them in a tournament since the book was redone so maybe you have more experience with them in that environment than me. smile.gif

Looking at the lore of Hashut again, Ash Storm and Flames of Azgorh do seem a bit better than I remember. I forgot that Ash Storm affects a lot of spellcasting as well, and didn't realise Flames of Azghorh effectively had an unlimited range, which would have been useful if I'd remembered it last game. rolleyes.gif Both those spells have high-ish casting levels and can't be duplicated in the army though, and many of the other spells in the lore are either short ranged or situational (as is the lore attribute) so it still makes the decision to count it as a War Machine choice very odd. I don't see why they didn't just do the same as they did for Death and Shadow and limit it to 4PD for casting instead.

Reading the feedback in the linked thread is very interesting, quite a few saying the Daemon comp is better overall (one person saying the old comp made them "unplayable" which is pushing it a bit) and a couple saying the Chaos Dwarf comp is too harsh. Most interesting though is one person complaining the comp is too complicated and saying it is making it difficult for him to get people in his area (somewhere in Northern Ireland I think) to adopt the comp for tournaments or even get people into Warhammer at all, which makes it sound like he is trying to get newbies to use the comp which I really disagree with if thats truly the case. Its not what the comp is intended for and I doubt the ETC commitee want it to be used that way either.

Also I agree with DaemonReign, they should use scenarios more. The newest suggestion I have seen is they want to change Battleline too (the only scenario they use) to make the deployment "fairer" which surprises me a bit as I can't recall anyone complaining about it before.


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LAV-Kitsune-
Posted: Mar 19 2012, 04:47 AM


Lovely Fox Spirit
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List 1
Unit Pts. % Total

1 x Keeper of Secrets 450 21 % 505
Siren song, Soul Hunger, Torment blade 55

1 x Herald of Tzeentch 115 17 % 405
MoS Beasts, Spellbreaker 50
1 x Herald of Khorne 100
Bsb, Armour of Khorne 40
1 x Herald of Khorne 100

30 x Bloodletters 360 34 % 805
Full command, Icon of endless war 55
30 x Bloodletters 360
Full command 30
6 x Furies 72
6 x Furies 72

5 x Fiends 275 23 % 540
1 x Fiends 55
3 x Flamers 105
3 x Flamers 105
TOTAL: 2399

List 2
Unit Pts. % Total

1 x Herald of Tzeentch 115 25 % 595
MoS Heavens, Spellbreaker 50
1 x Herald of Nurgle 115
Bsb, Great icon of despair 100
1 x Herald of Khorne 100
Armour of Khorne 15
1 x Herald of Khorne 100

30 x Bloodletters 360 50 % 1202
Full command, Icon of endless war 55
30 x Bloodletters 360
Standard, Champion 24
29 x Plaguebearers 348
Full command, Standard of seeping decay 55
5 x Furies 60

5 x Fiends 275 23 % 540
1 x Fiends 55
6 x Flamers 210
TOTAL: 2397

These tables look bit messy when imported from excel, but bear with me. I now did 2 very basic looking lists with the new restrictions. Lists are starting to look pretty same with majority of noncomped lists and while creating these lists I figured out that now the choises are pretty much between Heraldstorm or Thirster/GuO. I would love to say that KoS is equally good choice in the comps, but since war machines and magic are nerfed so badly, thirster and Guo really are better so I will likely change my general too. I mean, this is really starting to look like big monsters tournament instead of infantry based 8th edition.

Ok I am being very unclear again, so let me try to explain that KoS thing a bit more. On noncomped environment siren song can help big time by pulling random unit to your KoS so he wont get shot in shooting phase. It can ofcourse be used to pull big units to him, but unlike daemonettes, he wont get stubborn buff on himself and has to fight against static resolution of 5 (charge, ranks, flag) if he pulls a unit which means he has high risk of melting while using the siren. So siren song is limited more against monsters, monstrous units like 3 mournfang and medium sized melee blocks like ~15 black guard that he can take down by himself. Considering this one can compare how Bloodthirster and Balesword GuO would do against those targets (monsters and such) and find out that KoS really loses out there. Suddenly his only treat would be the Slaaneshi magic that isnt really reliable to start with or Spirit Swallower points denial, which in this environment is kinda wasting points as Bloodthirster for example could actually score some points while still staying alive pretty well. And LoC is out of the picture because of the MoS nerf unless one wants to use Lore of Tzeentch.

Now dont get me wrong, Daemons can get really powerful lists as they could got them earlier too, but list choices are really limited. Jonathan posted some lists made with the former restrictions and while there is some really intresting choices like that first seeker based army (600pts seeker unit) I still doupt that list like that could actually fight better than boring heraldstorm with letters and khorne heralds. So it appears to me that daemons can now build strong lists, but to do so are forced to very boring moulds that offer only a little variation in strategy and list building aspects. I mean, we cannot go "shooty" as our flamers and magic is nerfed and character choices are quite limited so we pretty much have to build straightforward big blocks of core daemons with some fast support and play very aggressively. I just feel that we are so forced to one slot that it takes out fun of creativity on list building.

Of the two list ideas that I posted the second one would be my favourite. Depending on the foe, daemon blocks would go either deep or horde formation and with -3Ld penalties it would make combats fast and break steadfasts bit easier also lore of heavens deals nicely with flying units and I might get comet too to help a bit with war machines and other nasty stuff like that. Basic idea is familiar to most daemon players, it has units that hit hard and keep points pretty well. Not much else to say about it really, so thats it ^.^;;;
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Pecu
Posted: Mar 20 2012, 03:19 PM


Horror
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Here's a list that i was planning for a ETC comped tournament coming up next month. I have to say that I don't have any ETC comped tournaments under my belt and I have exactly 3 games of 8th edition with daemons (and about a dozen during 7th..) so my list might be a bit poo-poo.



Bloodthirster 550
General
Immortal fury
Awesome strength (expecting alot of empire steamtanks and tk sphinxes..)

Herald of Tzeentch 165
Spell breaker
Master of Sorcery
Lore of

Herald of Khorne 125
Battle standard bearer

Herald of Khorne 125
Firestorm blade


30 Bloodletters 390
Full command

30 Bloodletters 390
Full command


3 Flamers 105

3 Flamers 105

Fiend of Slaanesh 55

Fiend of Slaanesh 55

Bloodcrusher of Khorne 70

Bloodcrusher of Khorne 70



TOTAL: 2205pts



Now, few questions:

1) What lore for the HoT? I was thinking Shadow, Light or Beasts. All of those lores have nice spells, but i'm sort of drawn towards the Beasts because of it's signature spell which could prove useful..

2) What should i get with the remaining ponts? I was thinking that maybe i should drop couple of those BL's and get a unit of ~20 Daemonettes to chew through low T hordes that require alot of attacks to get killed.. Other option would be -2ld banner for the BSB and then some small stuff.




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Daemons of Chaos: since Jan/2012

W 8 - D 0 - L 4
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JonathanC
Posted: Mar 20 2012, 03:43 PM


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I think most the list looks pretty decent. I don't rate awesome strength but with the current rules for MoS its hard to think of another reliable counter for Stanks and Sphinxes. Even with S10 I would say its risky for a BT to take on a Stank as if you fail to cause many wounds he could be ground down by impact hits in the next turn.

At least one of those Heralds of Khorne should have armour if your BT doesn't have it. Obviously better on the BSB unless you give him a magic banner. Speaking of the banners, they make your BSB very expensive and that can make them easy kills for big points in my experience since they can't take extra protection.

For magic, I think you need to look at the signature spells and lore attributes primarily as those are the only things you can guarantee. Shadow has a great sig spell but useless attribute, Beasts is marginally better in that regard but its more likely the other spell you get won't be so good. Light has an attribute and sig spell that probably isn't what you want, but you are almost certain to get an augment that will really boost your core troops.

For the remaining points, I would say armour of Khorne and Obsidian armour on the Heralds, Icon of Endless War for one Bloodletter unit and then either 3 Nurglings or drop a Crusher for 5 Flesh Hounds as a flanking unit to accompany the Bloodthister.


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Pecu
Posted: Mar 21 2012, 08:23 AM


Horror
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With the A.strength my thinking was that i can't rely on getting pit/sun due to the MoS change. And with lores i've been checking the signature spells and atributes when trying to figure out a good lore for the HoT. Light seems to be good since there's a lot of good spells in it, I think i need to get couple of test games with it to see whether to pick or not..


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WHFB:

Daemons of Chaos: since Jan/2012

W 8 - D 0 - L 4
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Guilder
Posted: Mar 21 2012, 09:25 AM


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If your main concern is a steam tank or sphinx, why not take a GUO with Balesword? He should be able to take them out relatively easily.
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Pecu
Posted: Mar 21 2012, 10:40 AM


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My only GD is Bloodthirster, since i just started my Daemons army in january and i really like my conversion that i have made... (I did have an DoC army back in 7th, but i sold it quite briefly back then)


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Daemons of Chaos: since Jan/2012

W 8 - D 0 - L 4
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Runidis
Posted: Mar 21 2012, 03:27 PM


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In my experience, countering stank with a bloodthirster isn't going to work, because i think he will be pretty much dead in the first-second turn against Empire :S
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LAV-Kitsune-
Posted: Mar 22 2012, 05:48 AM


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Ok, if you have no other greater daemons and you worry about big monsters, then I really do suggest getting a firestorm blade. It does bring TONS more utility than awesome strenght and will cost a lot less too. I'll explain it a bit. One might think that having it on Bloodthirster is a big risk, since opponent could have 2++ ward against flaming attacks, but there usually is tons more things to attack and usually you can just avoid characters easily with your flying.

Lets take Skaven for example. Their big things (furnace, abomination, Wheel) are all T6. Having +1S means that Thirster with Immortal fury (must purchase) is going to deal 4,15 wounds per round instead of 3,11. He will not kill the thing in one round, but this works really well for you actually. You charge in on the first turn, inflict some wounds and on his turn you finish the monster so that your thirster is protected from shooting. He kills the model and reforms to face the next target.

Also flaming attacks help a lot against regenerating units. Here you might think that regenerating blocks usually have characters to protect them, but here your other troops come to help. You could for example attack front with your bearers / letters so that character cannot use his make way move to thirster. Thirster hits first and removes the regeneration and basic block will follow to deal massive casualities.

Comparing Awesome strenght with firestorm blade makes awesome strenght look quite bad. Firestorm blade leaves only 6+ save to 2+ save models so to be honest you really do not need awesome strenght for cracking up armours most of time. Firestorm + Immortal fury inflicts 4,15 wounds per round on T6 models while Awesome strenght deals 3,89 wounds. Against T8 models like Sphinxes Thirster with firestorm and hunger would deal 2,07 wounds and with awesome strenght 3,89. Against Steam tanks you would do 0,69 wounds with sword and hunger but 2,33 wounds with Awesome strength.

Considering that T6 and T5 monsters are the most common ones and you will rarely see armour saves better than 2+ you will not need S10 quite as often as S7 and flaming attacks. Considering that Sphinx would only deal 0,12 wounds to Thirster per round, you would be winning the combat by 3 (wounds + charge) with Thirster which means that sphinx would melt down on first turn so in the end you really do not even need awesome strenght for that.

Steam tank on the other hand has 10W which means that even with Awesome strenght you would spent 5 turns beating it down (or even more if opponent had lore of life to heal the tank up). So if your 550pts monster would spend whole game trying to kill 300pts, then that would be points well spent to Empire. Instead I really do suggest throwing furies or single fiends to the tank instead and get the points from rest of the empire army. Only good counter against Stank is Balesword GuO if the magic is nerfed (3,33xD6 wounds on the first round and 2xD6 on following rounds).

So as a conclusion I would say that having awesome strenght leaves your thirster les protected or more unreliable (depending on if you pick fury or armour) and much less useful against different kinds of foes and pairings. You might also want to consider lore of metal as a steam tank counter if you want something reliable. D6 hits wounding on 2+ immobilizes tank pretty fast and makes it unreliable.


At the moment daemons dont have to really worry much with ETC comps in my opinion. Since shooting is so badly nerfed, our Greater daemons will rule pretty much every other big thing on the field and since we got letter hordes with heralds back we also got tons of hitting power here + lots of cheap support to throw there on top of it (fiends furies). I mean, the comps mainly restrict making different kinds of lists, now you can only make really powerful ones. I suppose thats ok *heh*.
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eastern barbarian
Posted: Mar 22 2012, 08:00 AM


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all that means though as well that ETC lists will be mostly boring as usual and all similar to each other..
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JonathanC
Posted: Mar 22 2012, 10:18 AM


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Isn't that half the point of ETC restrictions anyway?


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LAV-Kitsune-
Posted: Mar 23 2012, 03:39 AM


Lovely Fox Spirit
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Oopsie, I made a mistake with Steam tank math on earlier post. Since one automatically hits steam tank, you would deal 0,78 wounds to it per round with sword but 3,5 per round with awesome strenght. So it would take ~13 rounds to kill stank with firestorm blade but only ~3 rounds with awesome strenght. Meaning that with Awesome strenght you could kill the tank in 2 turns but otherwise it would be quite unkillable. Downside is that awesome strenght is pretty useless against everything else, where firestorm blade brings good utility against regenerators, like I mentioned above.
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themanbelow
Posted: Mar 23 2012, 06:14 AM


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is a boosted amber spear from beasts good against stanks?
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brother_maynard
Posted: Mar 23 2012, 06:47 AM


Greater Daemon
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its ok. 50/50 chance of wounding it and then on average, you'll need two spears to do enough wounds to make it useless (but it NEVER works out for me, i always roll a stupid 1 or 2 for wounds angry.gif ). like kitsune said, bogging it down with support units is hands down the best way to deal with it.


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