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New ETC restrictions
, Which daemon lists will shine?
Member No.: 2,614
Joined: 29-November 10
You are probably right Kitsune, BUT... LoC is a large target with 5 wounds and only a 5+ ward save... most of the armies will make short work of him, or any other greater daemon (excluding GuO maybe?). So, lets take a look:
Beastmen- They have no solution for any GD, but i dont think we'll be seeing them much on the ETC
Bretonnia- trebuchets+tons of cheap archers, they have a good chance of getting even the GuO down
DoC- Other daemons wold have trouble hunting down that LoC thats for sure, gives you an edge in that matchup
Dark Elves- Those Xbows are spooky, the shades most of all, but lets say if you can deploy well, you will get outta range of the normal Xbows and not let those shades deploy too close to your GD
Dwarfs- Too much artillery EVEN in the comped enviroment, 4 war machines will likely make short work of any GD.
High Elves- if bringing out ~40 archers with the range of 30-35 inches, it is hard to escape them, but not impossible, and a good thing if the opponent focuses all his shooting on your daemon, even better if he fails to kill him.
Lizardmen- A tough one, lots of poisonous shots, really one of the hardest matchups for DoC if you ask me.
Ogre Kingdoms- We are fine here if the cannon is dodged
Orcs and Goblins- still lots of catapults, lots of shots, and sniper spells, not looking good for the GD here.
Skaven- shooty scouts, cannons/catapults, doomwheel, potential S6 shooting attacks, not looking good for the guy either.
Empire- 2-3 war machines, guns and arrows
Tomb kings- nasty 'hitting on fives' arrows, catapults, ouch.
Vampire Counts- i experienced the Terrorgheist kill my GD on turn 1 first hand.
Warriors of Chaos- other then hellcannons we are fine here.
Wood Elves- even though they are considered an underpowered army, those arrows can really make a mess in the DoC army.
So, when you look at this, is it really wise to bring out the LoC, or any GD at all i ask you? Or just go for the heralds and another large block (even horrors maybe?)? And once again i ask you, what are the good matchups for daemons with the GD, and which ones are good for us without one?
Lovely Fox Spirit
Member No.: 2,592
Joined: 1-November 10
You have good points Runidis, but like Maynard said, they aren't that bad in game as they look on paper. I will try to explain this in two ways, math and counter strategies. First of all let me note that Will of Tzeentch is what makes LoC quite resilient against war machines, but lets look at some numbers:
Catapults are usually the bigger threat as they cannot be blocked by fiend shields. Unless your opponent rolls a hit though, it is very likely that catapult hit will scatter away and miss the GD, so theres only 1/3 chance on hitting the GD. Wounding will be on 5/6 chance, but then you got 1/3 chance on warding and yet another one with Tzeentch will. After that opponent would have 1/3 chance on finishing the GD with a single shot. That means that with Trebutchet theres only around 4% chance to get LoC down with one shot. Without Will of Tzeentch this chance would be around 6%. For cannon ball to do the same through Fiend shield the chance would be 2%, not very likely. With Phas protection on, the chance to get through fiend shield and kill LoC would be 0,6%
Archers can be bit more troublesome, but nobody rushes their greater daemons directly to them. You seem to underestimate greater daemons T6 here though. And very likely your opponent will be having only one round to shoot GD and even that is from the long range. This means that even 40 elves with BS4 will only deal 2 wounds to unarmoured GD. 40 BS3 units like Dwarves and Empire would deal 1,48 wounds with their shooting. After that one round of shooting the GD would be in combat or out of line of sight, protected from all of the shooting. On my list LoC will be using lore of light and commonly brute forces Phas protection through with Tzeentchs will to protect him and whole army making him tough model to shoot down with BS penalty, protection from war machines and tzeentch will.
Ofcourse you can argue that every single war machine and archer will shoot the greater daemon and it would be enough to kill it on first turn, but that means that rest of the army will get through unscratched. It is also worth noting that you can dodge majority of shooting with good deployement and can easily force opponents poisoned scouts to deploy either infront of your lines to fiends/hounds/letters charge arc or too far from your GD to be useful.
So far my LOC (or any other GD) has died on shooting only once and that was long time ago when I didn't trust its skills and didnt play it offensively enough. Even LoC has tons of good targets that it can safely charge. It can also deal with the war machines if you dont trust it could take anything else down. I will give you some examples for each army you listed:
Beasts: Everything is ok target.
Bretonnia: Knights. Since they do not get lance bonus or the lance formation bonus you will be facing only 9-10 S3 hits from basic knights AND you actually prevent their devastating charge. Positioning your LoC to the flank will give you even higher advantage. First or second round charge to big knight unit works really well even without other support.
DoC: Fiends, Flamers, Daemonettes and use the LoC for flank charging.
Delfs: Hydras, Cauldrons, Spearmen, Archers. Pretty much everything but witches, black guards and Exes. LoC can even go fetch the sorcerer from the spearmens block. Scouts can be nasty, but here you really should deploy wide to force them out from your flanks and rear. GD has good amount of targets that it can safely charge.
Dwarfs: Here LoC can be very vulnerable. If there is any shooters here I would fly my LoC directly next to them. Being 4" from them makes every warmachine risky to use as they can so easily hit the own models instead. Getting 20 shots from close range wont kill the LoC and being so close means usually being at out of LoS from other shooting units that are all move or fire on this army. Your targets on Dwarf lists would likely be everything that shoots. Those greatweapon units can be bit too risky for LoC.
Helfs: Same as with delfs, but you got more soft targets and less shooting to be afraid of.
Lizardmen: Tough as nuts, tons of poisoned shooting combined with light magic. I will usually try to park my LoC to Stegadon or support other daemons when fighting sauruses. For LoC this is really the toughest fight.
Ogres: Ironblasters, Mournfang and all other big monsters are good targets. Support charging bull units work too. LoC usually spends no time outside melee against Ogres.
O&G: Charge anything if there is too many catapults or get your LoC near a goblin unit for example. Any GD is pretty safe against almost every unit when facing O&G, shooting isnt an issue.
Skaven: Hunt Abominations, Doom wheels and if you start to ge to trouble charge clan rats. Theres nothing that can harm you there. Gutter runners are much more of an threat than war machines in here.
Empire: You can charge anything in range to get away from war machines. They really do not have much time to shoot your LoC. Again you can park him close to his units that it makes it risky to shoot you.
TK: Arrows? Really? Apart from Sphinxs your GD can charge anything to be safe from all magic and shooting that TK can throw. Their shooting sucks. Even 100 archers would only deal 3,7 wounds to unarmoured GD.
VC: Terrorgheists are the only big threat. Deploy far from it and charge something to stay safe. Optionally bomb his big monsters down with lore of light and flamers.
WoC: Not much places to hide as melee opponents hit hard. Fortunately 2 cannons rarely are enough to take down GD.
Welfs: Arrows alone really do not make the difference. We are pretty safe here.
So what I am trying to say here is that GDs should usually be played quite offensively. If you give your opponent only one chance to shoot them, they are close immortal =)
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