Rancid Visitation

I get what you are saying Trem, and most people wouldn't question it at all, but the BRB rules do leave it ambiguous as to if monster's handlers are actually a model in a unit or just a 'marker or counter'. The BRB (pg 73) says to treat the monster as the extent of the unit. If the monster is the extent of the unit, his stats are the lowest in the unit. Army books don't let you ignore all the core rules, just override in case of a conflict.

Cavalry would be a good example of a conflict.. BRB says never use the mounts Toughness, Rancid Visitation says use the lowest Toughness.. DoC book wins the conflict. Warmachines are another. I will concede you use the Warmachine strength 0 as lowest and the crew toughness as lowest.

I'm not saying you are wrong, or that I believe monster handlers are not a model in a uinit. I'm just stating facts as an educational point for those that expect they may have a disagreement at a tourney or game night. I have no agenda here besides assuaging my boredom. I am not a lawyer by occupation, nor do I think typing in all caps makes an argument more valid, (rather the opposite).

First off i'm 100% behind what Trem is saying . AB>BRB.

And thank you Colonel for "Cavalry would be a good example of a conflict.. BRB says never use the mounts Toughness, Rancid Visitation says use the lowest Toughness.. DoC book wins the conflict. Warmachines are another. I will concede you use the Warmachine strength 0 as lowest and the crew toughness as lowest."

You were also saying that "but the BRB rules do leave it ambiguous as to if monster's handlers are actually a model in a unit or just a 'marker or counter'"

Two thing here: One; AB>BRB, Two; Rancid Visitation says use the lowest Toughness in the unit for a toughness test. It does matter if they are extra models or markers or counter or anything at all. All that matter to Rancid Visitation is there more than one toughness valve and if there is, use the lowest for the spell to continue.

Bottom line is that in the army books there are multiple stat lines for monsters and handlers and since the spell says to use lowest T (Rancid) in the unit the AB trumps the BRB and you use the Handlers T (Until they're all dead of course). Its one of the rare instances where using AB over the BRB is so significant but thats why GW put in the BRB that AB>BRB.

Like I said before, its cut and dry leaving ZERO room for arguement because once your arguement states "But the BRB says..." it becomes invalid because AB Trumps that.

For almost any other spell or situation out there concerning characteristic tests and these unique units you'd be 100% correct. However, since the AB says to use the lowest stat in the unit you are 100% wrong to try and reference the BRB saying to NOT do so (or to ignore parts of the unit). I'm sure none of your opponents have a problem with you doing that but in the end your handicapping yourself for no other reason than a misunderstanding... which is why threads on forums like this exist.

Even if I have to beat the information into you with my make believe Internets Bat, it is what it is gentlemen and to try and argue it otherwise is just you being stubborn. And no, I'm not a lawyer irl, I'm just a jerk.

-Tremendous

I agree with the basic premise that you use the Lowest available Toughness value, since that's exactly what the spell-description tells you to do.

I'm just gonna nitpick here and remind you, Tremendous, that the Handler's never die. They cannot be individually wounded like that.

This means that in the case of the DE Hydra you keep testing against the Handler's Toughness value right down to the last Wound of the "entire Model".

DE Hydra Handlers work differently compared to for example Warmachine Crew-men that are removed as "wound counters" as the Warmachines suffers damage.

I don't know if this is just a slip or if you didn't know.. But just felt like pointing it out.

As for the rest of this discussion I actually think it is very clear-cut. AB trumps BRB and all that jazz. The intent/RAW of the spell in question is pretty damn crystal.

Honestly DR Again, it comes down to what the spell says, I believe, for these spells only you do take the handlers and the warmachine crew into account because there is a stat line for them in every unit of its kind in WHFB. The spell says to use the lowest stat in the unit and the handlers or crew would be the lowest stat.

If GW didn't want it to work like that a FAQ would have been released that, at the very least, would have simply removed the stat line of the crew / handlers long ago.

Also, I'm really tired of this debate. lol! Were all stubboern enough and set in our ways of playing that were not going to change our interpretation what-so-ever.

This horse is dead gentlemen and beating it, while fun, has become fruitless. So unless were gonna degenerate this conversation into "Your mom" insults I think we can all agree to disagree and continue elsewhere on the forums where our rules lawyering can be put to better use.

-Tremeneodus

Look !

in case on warmachine you test against on the Crew's T for the spell to continue but use the cannon T against the damage

in case hydra : you use the handlers T for the spell to continue , but use the hydra T against the S5 hits & u only able to wound the hydra never the handlers

in case of cavalary : use the mount T if its lower but u have to use the rider T for to cause any wound .
etc
Why this is so difficult for you guys ???

its so plain n simple !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It ain't difficult at all darthpoodoo.. I've always played it exactly like you say, and I always will.

And Tremendous: I was actually agreeing with you on all relevant details, merely pointing out the fact that you cannot wound DE Hydra Handler's individually - which is exactly what darthpoodoo is saying as well (perhaps in a little more concise manner).

Cheers!

I still say we degenerate this discussion into a series of "Your mom" jokes....

-Tremendous

"Your momma's so gross she makes Nurgle sick!"

"Your momma's so ugly even Slaanesh wouldn't have her!!"

"Your momma changes her mind so much even Tzeentch doesn't know whats going on with her!!!"

"Your momma's caused so many road accidents even Khorne went: 'oh come on, that's just too much!!!!'"

"Your momma's a Fury!!!!!"

etc....

Amazing.

That's what your mom said last night..

Haha, those were great! Perhaps we should make a silly 'your momma' thread of warhammer jokes in open gaming discussion ^.^

Now I feel like we have closure.

-Tremendous

Your mama gets a stomp attack cause shes a monstrous beast.