what to do about the dark elves

So at my local gaming store I have been challenged by a Dark Elf player. I am coming to you guys for assistance cause i have always had trouble with the pesky elves. anything you guys know that works against them please do tell cause i need to write a good list by Saturday for the match.

He has been know to take a squad of 40 horded executioners followed by the 40 horded corsairs with the frenzied banner. A hydra of course.... . a level 4 (fire supposedly) and last but not least...... 2 Cauldrons to bless both of the hordes with the +5 ward save. i versed him awhile ago with my high elves and got thrashed. please help, anything will be useful. And don't be limited to just these units though, i want to be expecting anything and have a balanced list for him.

-thanks guys

Greater Daemons help MASSIVELY against dark elves.

I really feel like I have to make a post here 'cause Dark Elves is my arch nemesis as far as Warhammer goes too. As far as I am concerned a good DE-list in the hands of good player is, and always was, alot stronger than Daemons.

Your opponant is bringing two Cauldrons?! Ok.. I usually have to deal with just one Cauldron but more than one Hydra, I suppose the "difference" is minimal since both the Hydra and the Cauldron are massively undercosted for what they can accomplish. The Hydra's weakness is the Regen - I've found that fielding ~20 Flamers pretty much negates the Hydras.

Flamers are also an excellent counter against Dark Elves in general. Don't feel bad about spamming them either, 'cause I bet your opponant won't think twice about dropping 20-40 repcrossbows on the field.

Largish units if Dark Elves are nasty, especially with those Ridiculous assassins. Like previous poster said Greater Daemons in the flank is really, really, effective - and concerning the Front well for all their Hatred and high I the Dark Elves don't really have anything that can deal effectively with over-sized units of Bloodletters. Well, WitchElves maybe if there's a whole lot of them.

Going into details:
The Gift "Spelldestroyer" is one I would concider. Usually I find that the only spell from the Dark Elf arsenal I really "fear" is Occam's and if you can remove that you'll be a whole lot more at ease during his magic phase.

"Firestorm Blade" of course, a little unit of crushers (DE has problems removing these) for hunting down those Hydras if the Flamers don't catch them first.

One or two units of Furies (6-7 strong is good, 5 strong works too) for taking down his boltthrowers. They usually get the job done.

The Spell "Plaguewind" is one that Dark Elf-steadfast/horde blocks really, really, FEAR. If you feel like bringing a GreatUncleOne that is..

The Cauldron.. I tend to just pretend it isn't there. Focus on destroying whatever it's boosting instead. After all it can't charge anything.

FleshHounds are often pretty good against ColdOneKnights, surpricingly good - but of course only as long as YOU do the charging.. and you need to bring quite a few hounds too.

So..

Start with a unit of 50+ Bloodletters in the center - he's not gonna wanna go toe to toe with them even with all those Execs. Throw in alot of Flamers. Maybe a Siren Song Slaanesh dude in a small "Stubborn for first breaktest" unit in order to screw up his Battleline and draw things within range of your Letters.. Bloodthirster tooled for killing lots of guys is great just stay away from where is crazy assassin is likely to be, and stay away from the reverseward dragon lord too.

Lore of Life is good. So is the Lore of Beasts. Daemons Lore of Nurgle if you go that way.

In the end, if your opponant is GOOD then you are indeed in for a challange.. Which should be a great thing in itself because alot of races can't present that to the DoC player!

DaemonReign pretty much said all good things but I would still like to add more to what N.I.C.K said about greater daemons. They truly are great against dark elves. Thirster, Keeper or GuO can easily hold one horde of corsairs and still win the combats. Corsairs would need 5+ to hit, 6+ to wound and you would still have 5+ ward or even some armor with your thirster. With many attacks and thunderstomps you need pretty bad luck to lose your combat.

Flamers are excellent like DaemonReign said and really enjoy lore of metals buffs against dark elves, as it gives them just right amount of power to push through their 5+ saves. Both Metal and light have flaming spells (light can boost to S6 too) that can hurt hydra badly, but against delfs I like using light. It counters all those arrows well, buffs you to be faster than them and gives some extra attacks in the tight spot and ofcourse helps to kill hydras.

Cauldrons are usually positioned behind the lines so it might be tricky to get to them, so most of the time I tend to ignore them and instead focus on the basic troops. Remember that elves are squishier than daemons and normally lose the combats against them if both have even numbers.

But be carefull with greater daemon.

be aware of this guy:
Dreadlord
Soulrender, Dragonhelm, Pedant of Khaeleth, Crown of Command
Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak

Cause he will ruin your game

Yes that guy is unkilable killer

I found one nice way to kill him. Herald of slaanesh, S4, ASF, NO AS blade... low strength bends PoK inverse ward save, a No AS blade ignores his 1+AS.

Lore of Metal: Gehennas golden hounds.
D6 wounds on 2+ with no saves or wards.
Voila hes dead! =)

That is ofcourse if he rides a dragon or fails look out sir rolls, but lore of metal works well against delfs in overall as I already mentioned.

Hells yes I gotta throw in a Metal-MoS-HoT for tonight's game.

Pendant of Khaleth is just a nutty item.

I actually hadn't concidered how the Lore of Light can boost Flamers either.

Just goes to show you learn something new every day!

Lore of Metal: Gehennas golden hounds.
D6 wounds on 2+ with no saves or wards.
Voila hes dead! =)

That is ofcourse if he rides a dragon or fails look out sir rolls, but lore of metal works well against delfs in overall as I already mentioned.

Dragonhelm puts an end to ghenna's.. 2+ ward vs flaming, ghenna's, like searing doom, is a flaming attack.

That dreadlord is usually on a dark pegasus. Makes life even worse for daemons. Only thing I can think of is to bog him down in a unit or hope for a lucky KB. Possibly siren song, win combat through res and have -2ld banner around.. sure it's only on Ld8, but it's better than nothing.


EDIT: Actually, could try for Lore of Death on him. Fate of Bjuna or caress of laniph are probably your best bets. Shrivelling Pox from Nurgle lore could work too. Anything that isn't flaming and doesn't have a strength value. If taking Death then soulblight really wrecks elves.. flamers wounding on a 2+, mostly s2/3 attacks back are less scary than s3/4 for our core troops.

Hi,

Being a DE player myself, I feel disinclined to help, but, since we are treacherous and conniving bunch, I might just decide to help you out...

You don't know what you will face since DE can excel at almost every aspect of the game, so it will greatly depend on your opponents play style. Though, at least one Hydra (usually 2, or even 3 if you are very unlucky!) is to be expected - that's been covered.

Horde Executioners are damn right nasty, your best bet would to kill as many as possible with magic (and shooting, but Flamers will be needed else where, I think), using the nastiest AoE spells you have available. Debuffs would also help you greatly. When they are a more managable size you should be able to dust 'em easily. I think daemonettes would be good as multiple low S attacks will - though you would be hitting and wounding on 4's giving them a 6+ save - not all that good, now that I think about it, unless you flank/rear charge them.

You should also be wary of a Supreme Sorceress with the Sacrificial Dagger, usually bunkered in a unit of Warriors or Crossbowmen. I, personally, bunker mine in a unit of 50 Warriors. She casts up to 4 spells a turn and can add a power dice to every single cast she makes. Which, if left unchecked, will dish out the pain big time.

Cold One Knights, with a super kitted out Dreadlord and the ASF banner in a unit of 12 - well, I've seen units like this hit an enemy in the flank and literally plow through the enemy army from one side to the other killing pretty much everything in it's path! Brutal!

Sorry, right, I'm supposed to be helping... Do you know how many points you are playing?

this is true, DE are one of our tougher matchups. you can pretty much count on facing 1 of 3 broad categories of DE lists. combat-oriented lists aren't too much trouble for us, everything they do well in CC, we do better. its the DE gunlines and the move-and-shoot lists that give us the most trouble.

agreed this unit is mean. don't engage this beast unless you stack the odds in your favor (buffs/debuffs, turning a flank etc.). they're a tough cookie but like all elves, if you catch them at a disadvantage, you'll win easily. they're very vulnerable to flamers and nuke spells as well.

agreed, his level 4 is the most dangerous thing he has. luckily we have several tools to kill her. fiends can run and smack her, siren song to get her into combat, charge the unit with a GD (he can squish the sorceress and eat spearmen in droves), and as always, elves are very vulnerable to nukes.

these guys are very vulnerable to LoMetal (one of my favorite lores, see my thread about using it vs DE). the trick here is to break the unit and run down the lord. if he's got the stubborn crown he won't be kitted for destruction and that helps alot. also, if the ASF banner is in a unit of knights, its not with the execs where it belongs. if this is the case, letters will be able to charge the exec horde head-on and beat it.

thats ok, your picture of the DE army isn't so bleak when we break it down and analyze our tools. we have options to deal with pretty much any tricks the druchii can bring, though they are one of our toughest matches. DE vs DoC games very much depend on generalship.

some general notes-

if he's got a cauldron or 2, take them down early. top priority for flamers here (even over hydras) but don't waste time or shots. if the cauldron is safely bunkered behind his line, go for a better target or wait for him to make a mistake. their buffs are extremely deadly and if he's using one as a bsb, you're up 300 vps if you can kill it. next, use flamers to put some wounds on the hydras. they don't have to kill them, just take a couple wounds off so the letters can chop them up easily. next are witch elves, they're nasty in CC but with no armor they die in droves to flamers.

for magic, metal, light and shadow are all good against DE. they all offer protection against shooting, light and shadow take away their combat units' biggest advantage over us (their initiative) and metal offers a cheap nuke and a mix of good buffs and debuffs. hands down though, the best magic against DE is a level 4 GUO. this guy causes toughness tests like nobody's business (which all elves HATE) and his magic bypasses armor. that 40 strong exec unit? say hello to plague wind. get your magic-using GUO into combat against that huge unit of DE spearmen (who won't be able to hurt him) and watch him wreak havoc from almost complete safety. pendant of khaeleth getting you down? shrivelling pox will fix it. even the worst spell in the daemon lore of nurgle (pit of slime) is useful against DE.

the only thing to say about combat is to get your troops to strike before his or protect them so they get the chance to strike with full capability. a couple turns of using your magic wisely and you'll be looking forward to the combat phase alot more than he will.

Just massacred a DE list at 4,5 k.

Took the advice to use LoMetal and it was totally awesome just like you said. I also had LoLife and Dweller's and Flesh To Stone really came in handy, not to mention the attribute of this Lore - which IMO really fills one of few gaps in the DoC armour.. so to speak.

I had that LoLife herald on a Disc and each round he'd hop to wherever anything was wounded, get some spell off and heal back a wound at the same time. It was really great. Giving a horde of 50 Bloodletters +4T was just mean in the last round of combat, too. Too days later I am still excited about it.. hehe

The Cauldron.. I never face two of them because we only have one model. Eitherways, you're probably right that one should go after it straight away, maybe that's what I've been doing wrong amongst other things.. Still, I tend to prioritize Hydras etcetera because those buffs the Cauldron gives are rarely game-breaking.

Anyway, LoMetal was really an eye-opener for me. DE seems a lot more easy to beat now that I've really studied that Lore in action. Both that DragonLord with Pendant and large blocks of ColdOnes are like the two things DoC might have a tough time countering - and LoMetal is more than great against both.

GuO.. oh I've tried that so many times. I know it's good in theory. But my GuO is simply cursed!! Just bad luck with the dice there.. But sooner or later I'll get that Plaguewind off like I want to..

As an experienced DE player and undefeated Chaos killer (woo bragging rights!! maybe). There is just one thing that sees me through every battle with them. The inability for the Daemons to hit, consequently mitigating the potential wounds inflicted and watching Daemon units pop from instability.

DE has two spells to achieve that, Word of Pain from Dark magic, and Miasma from shadow magic. Coupled with their high WS, it isn't hard to make Daemon units hit them on 5+. They also have high Ld so they generally don't give a rats arse about fear.

Their obvious weakness is that they're T3 with a 5+ AS at best. So for Daemons, get lots and lots of Daemonettes with a HoS

You also want to get some Furies or Fiends to go assassinate their wizards. Once they're gone, DE will suffer greatly.

GDs also are a constant thorn in the side for DEs. So do consider taking one.

CoB? leave'em, they're really nasty so you need something substantial to go pop one. 4 wounds with 4+ ward and lots of frenzied WE go cut you beforehand. They're also stubborn because they're khainite and are within 12" of a CoB - and so are Execs, so don't try breaking them, if you can lol.

Finally, a horde of 40 Executioners usually sports a Death Hag BSB bearer with the ASF banner so that they're striking at I6 with S6 attacks. Or maybe it was I5, can't remember haha. Death Hags have zero armour, two wounds and at best, a 5+ ward from the CoB. When you go toe to toe with the Execs, make that BSB bearer your first priority.

One of my regular opponents is a DE combat-heavy player, and I gotta tell you it's an uphill battle every time.

My general lists always include a horde of Daemonettes and whatever else to flesh out, his general lists are bodies on the field heavy, so minimal characters, two units of 30 Witch-elves, unit of 30 executioners, crapload of xbows, Cauldron, and rest flavoured to taste.

The way I view this game is simple - he has me outmagic'ed , outshot and outfought - my only advantage is board control. I try to get the daemonettes into the Executioners, although it's still not a great fight once the Cauldron steps in and has him matching my Ward Save, but with multiple units ganging up on his units one at a time it's doable. On a side note, Occam's on Witch-elves is simply obscene (not that iwtches aren't terrifying enough on their own right now). Hell or high water do not let Occam's through.

Greater Daemons really help a lot in a DE matchup - DE nasties are reasonably expensive, so every Thunderstomp really counts. A Spirit-swallower Kipper is priceless against combat-heavy DE, just hope he doesn't make too many of those cauldron-inspired Wards.

Good Luck, DE are ruthless. Them and Skaven get my vote currently for top armies in the game right now.

-und_ed

Lore of Nurgle >> Shivelling Pox

33% of killing him outright - he fails Toughness test & you roll 3+
17% of doing a wound or 2
50% of doing nothing

Add Lore of Shadow to boost above % in your favour