Greets TheRealVeon, as always it's a pleasure to hear from you!
Sounds like you've been mostly fixing good little details, I'll look over the new pdf over the course of the day of course. Added your latest version to the top of page 1 too.The Furious Upgrade
I'm feeling like a douche over here seeing as you just went through the trouble of uploading a new version of the pdf, but I sincerely believe
that this Furious
upgrade should be the 'other' version discussed. I.e. Every 6 rolled To Hit in close combat by the Daemonettes and Alluress in the unit counts as 2 hits instead of 1.
- Simplicity of resolution! It's just a waay more elegant mechanic. No need for the otherwise necessary 'extra clause' specifying that you don't 're-roll the re-roll'
- On average
, and all though slightly 'better' compared to getting another attack
, the 'double hits on a 6'
-alternative compares a little better to having 'An Extra Hand Weapon'. The average is slightly lower (about 1 wound) but like I said before I still think 2pts/model
is a good place to start because this Upgrade (as opposed to the Extra Hand Weapon) has a kind of exponential potential to cause a bucketload of hits (depending on how many 6's 'above the norm' (6) you roll - 6 sixies being the 'norm' assuming Horde formation, hitting on 3's, with re-rolls To Hit).
- So yeah: 'Double hits on a 6 To Hit' can be argued for 2pts/model, where-as I definately think 'Extra attack on a 6 To Hit' would have to be costed at 1pts/model (probably being simply worse compared to an extra Hand Weapon!).
I realize the last page got sort of confusing between me making about a thousand incomprehensive edits to my posts while Kitsune and JonathanC (initially at least) were having 'bad days' with their calculators (while I - at the same time - am so used to being wrong I could hardly believe I was right *haha*) - but still
now that we're all seeing the same results in the 'math' over here I'm pretty confident that JonathanC will agree with me about the Furious Upgrade.
So aside of changing the 'mechanic' (as I discuss above!) we got the pointcosts and other variables to concider:2pts/model
looks 'just right'
with regards to the Furious Upgrade ('double hits on a 6 To Hit').
For the Seeker Chariot
I think you're right that 5pts/model
is about right. Strictly speaking, I'd say 4pts
though (two Daemonettes that gets the benefit right? Doubled cost?).
In fact, now that I think of it I am leaning toward 4pts/model for Furious
on the Seeker Chariot - because the Seeker Chariot (unlike the potential Horde
of Daemonettes or Seekers) will never be able to benefit from the 'exponetial potential'
of rolling lots of 6's.
Actually, I'm not even sure 4pts/model is low enough
because - with only 4 attacks - the upgrade is just simply going to be slightly worse
compared to 'A Second Hand Weapon', isn't it?
I don't know about you guys, but I am a little bit uncomfortable with having both
the 'new' Furious
Upgrade on them as well
as the Rending Claws
upgrade. A fully upgraded unit in close-combat would become quite the little thought-exercise to use - is my basic reasoning. I.e. both
upgrades depend on rolling 6's (one for Hitting, one for Wounding) so maybe (but only if you agree) we should try to find a suitable replacement for the 'Rending Claws'
* Downloading the new PDF as we speak. I shall look through it (particularly the items we've discussed lately) and probably make an edit to this post not long from now. Other Issues
Off the top of my head I can't think of anything that I would like to add or change at the moment. We were discussing those Special Rules for the Behemoth/Skullshrine, and I am looking forward to seeing how you resolved the issue of FleshHounds and their Magic Resistance, but I have no further pet-peeves of my own to bring up!*pending edit, presumably*EDIT..Yes here it comes..FleshHounds
- Ok so you decided to do as JonathanC said. That's fine! No change in other words!Behemoth
For the 'Daemon Chains'
The mechanic currently reads like this:For each Wizard in base contact with the Skullshrine at the start of the controlling player’s Magic phase, roll a D6. On a 5+ the Wizard takes a wound with no armour saves allowed.
As I concluded on the last page of the thread, we actually can
include those Warrior Priests (and other suitable targets including all Wizards) by changing the wording of this mechanic to the following:For each model in base contact with the Skullshrine at the start of the controlling player’s Magic phase that has the ability to channel power dice, roll a D6. On a 5+ the model takes a wound with no armour saves allowed.
This will exclude the things that JonathanC worried about (Casket of Souls, Luminarks, Hurricaniums) but include Warrior Priests. If JonathanC is still opposed to this idea then fine(!) - but given the discussion we had on the last page I would think he'd be fine with it. (?)
For the Great Icon of Khorne
The mechanic currently reads - All characters within 12" of the Skullshrine who serve Khorne may channel Dispel Dice. All successful attempts to channel Power Dice within 12" of the Skullshrine (by friend or foe) must be re–rolled.
Now, I don't want to change the portent
of this mechanic, but I would change the wording
slightly:All characters within 12" of the Skullshrine with the Mark of Khorne may channel Dispel Dice. All successful attempts to channel Power Dice within 12" of the Skullshrine (by friend or foe) must be re–rolled.
Now that I think about it, this is almost such a minute change you almost shouldn't bother with it. Did you refrain from using the word 'Mark' in order to avoid confusion with WoC-terminology?
It's kind of silly, but if we write characters "who serve Khorne"
you could argue that if the General of the Army is a Bloodthirster then (arguably) all other Characters in that Army are 'serving'
Khorne for the time being.
* I would delete this entry about the Great Icon of Khorne, but now that I've written it I may just as well leave it as a testament to nit-picking. It's up to you whether you can be bothered to make the change.Daemonettes, Seekers, Seeker Chariot
I basically stand by my convictions stated at the start of this post. We should go with the mechanic '6 To Hit = Extra Hit'
instead of the 'extra attack'-version.
And like I said, we could
discuss swapping "Rending Claws" on Seekers for 'something else'. Sopoforic Musk
perhaps? Or let them 'borrow' the Striders
Upgrade from Fiends? Again: I'll stress that this not a 'big deal' for me, and we should only look into it if you guys feel it's sufficiently important!
* Right. That's where I stand on these issues. I'll be reading the pdf over the course of the day and I will return with more blabbering should anything jump out at me.
***********************************************************************EDIT*Reflections from looking over the PDF*
p. 33 'Bestiary Entry for Phantasm of Slaanesh'
-- Both Phantasms and Fiends have an upgrade that gives them the Strider Special Rule. The difference is merely that in the Phantasm's case it's called Sidewinder, while simply being called Strider in the case of the Fiend.
I realize the fluff-text of 'Sidewinder' wouldn't fit the Fiend (snakes of Araby..' etcetera) but still I want to air the question (for your concideration). Should we turn these separate 'names of the same thing' into ONE upgrade that could then be applicable to both the Fiend and that Phantasm??Overview of Upgrades
If we look at Khorne troops, for starters, we notice that the "upgrades" are consistant between Bloodletters and Bloodcrushers, while the Bloodchariot can be said to have the 'Fury of Khorne
' Gift as optional upgrade instead of
the Battle-Hardened upgrade.
-- I believe we discussed this. I believe JonathanC deemed that Bloodchariots with (optional) armour save of 2+ would be 'too much'
. Given that we have much more 'variety' in terms of upgrades in other Marked Sections I'm not gonna push for a change.
Nurgle Troops, in summary, look like this:
Plaguebearers - Cloud of Flies and Nurgle's Rot.
Plaguetoads - Cloud of Flies and Corpulent Bulk
Pox Riders - Cloud of Flies and Nurgle's Rot.
Beasts of Nurgle - Playful and Aura of Nurgle
-- I think this section is satisfactory. Beasts of Nurgle 'stick out' but they already have Cloud of Flies 'innately' and Nurgle's Rot wouldn't really fit them too well (or it would fit, but I don't think it would be very interesting for them).
Slaanesh Troops, then:
Daemonettes - Furious & Supernatural Sprint
Seekers - Furious & Rending Claws
Seeker Chariot - Furious & Luring Fumes
Fiends - Scorpions & Striders
Phantasm - Thrasher & Sidewinder
-- Quite a lot of diversity in this section. Again: I'm asking if it wouldn't be a good idea to combine 'Striders' and 'Sidewinder' into the same Special Rule - and secondly would it be an alternative to also swap the "Rending Claws" for Seekers so that they get the Strider-upgrade as well?
This would actually reduce the sprawl of different Upgrades in the Slaanesh section conciderably. I don't know if the diversity is a problem, either, just thinking outloud here..
Horrors - Crackling Explotions & Windcatchers
Burning Chariot - Aura of Tzeentch & Iridescant Corona
Flamers - Changebringers & Immolators
-- Given the high specialization of these units I don't think there's much that can be done in order to bring the variety down in this section.GENERAL QUESTION ABOUT CHARIOTS
If we for example look at the Burning Chariot, at the bottom of its Bestiary Entry on p.41 we find the following sentence:The Burning Chariot may be taken as a Character mount. If so, the Character replaces the two Pink Horror crew members.
*This sentence is also repeated for the other two chariot, of course!*
My question is whether or not it's 'clear enough' that you cannot take any upgrades for the Chariot if it's taken a Character Mount.
For example, what's currently preventing a player to argue that he can put a Herald of Tzeentch on the Burning Chariot and at the same time purchase the upgrades (Aura of Tzeentch, Iridescant Corona) from the Chariot's entry (rather than buying the gifts with the Herald's own allowance?).
We should perhaps add a simple addition to that sentence about character mounts that makes clear that you can no longer make use of those upgrades.
This may require some carefull concideration, because we do want Chariot Mounts to be able to take extra Steeds, extra Jugger, and extra Screamers (should it desire to do so!) - it's actually merely the 'crew-upgrades' that should be excempt.