Alternate 8th Edition DoC army book, The definitive Daemon re-write.

[JonathanC]

Beasts - well I agree that a stubborn unit with T5, regen (+ward in case of flaming attacks) 4 wounds and -1 to hit in combat - that also has M6 and swiftstride - shouldn't be cheap. 100pts per model with stupidity may be too expensive, but I'd rather leave them at that cost for testing and then revise as necessary than make the mistake of setting them too low and not picking up on it for some reason. Also I agree that changing "Rotten to the Core" to the Aura of Nurgle gift would be best for consistency, although its a shame to lose the name as it saounds better in my view.

Rivalry - as said before, I'd rather leave it in and playtest it, removing it if it turns out you are right Talonz, than do it the other way round or not bother at all.

Karanak - well I think saying he is 100pts is a bit disingenuous unless you compare him to 22pt Plagueriddens, 45pt Pyrocasters or 90pt Bloodcrusher Champs. If you want to know how I calculated the cost though I worked it out as follows:
Champions get +1A for 10pts, so +20pts for Karanak as he gets +2A.
Musician: +10pts as standard.
Hatred: +15pts sounds about right compared to Immortal Fury for +25pts.
His special character-hunting ability and ability to make way I estimated at being worth approx 20pts.

Which all adds up to 65pts. Obviously the hardest bit to estimate was the last part but I think 20pts for his signature ability sounds about right. Even when not fighting his chosen target he is a better fighter than 2 Flesh Hounds together, and the option he grants the unit to make swift reforms (when they can't normally do this) is invaluable for decent-sized units. Even making one reform move to get through a gap can take Flesh Hounds our of the game for a turn or two. I expect some of the costs I posted could be disputed, so maybe it comes down to whether he is worth more than the sum of his parts or not. I've noticed some SC's work out to be far more expensive than you think when you break their cost down, but remain popular, while others look like a bargain when you add up all their abilities individually but hardly ever see the table.

When it comes to SC's in general, I have to admit I haven't used any of the lords and its been a year since I used any of the Heroes, so further opinions on these from people who have actually used or faced them are welcome. Apart from Epidemius (who I have faced) I have used all the heroes and champs at some point. Never seen Skarbrand or Kairos used (although I hear Kairos is popular), and only seen someone use Ku'Gath once. Masque and Skulltaker seem to be most popular in my experience.

The Changeling - until he's placed on the table it doesn't matter what his move is as the Changeling has taken a form that will allow him to keep pace - or to put it in other words if he isn't on the table he can't effect their movement. Once he reveals himself you'll just have to live with it however, just as you do when a Herald joins a unit of Flamers. I think the loss of post-reveal move is compensated for by the fact Flamers are faster and more manouverable so you can effectively point him at the enemies toughest models more easily.

Core/Special/Rare
Had a look at the other 8th ed books and it broke down like this:
Orcs & Goblins: 7/10/8
TK: 5/8/5
Ogres: 3/6/5
VC: 4/9/6
The average of this is 4.75/8.25/6, so we aren't too far off with 6/8/7 at present. We could move Crushers and Fiends to Special, and we could even go the other way and move some of the Chariots to Rare to rebalance things (just saying its an option for now). While Beasts of Nurgle do seem like the type of unit that should be special, I do think it would look odd if we had no Nurgle units in Rare and Beasts are probably more "elite" (in terms of stats/abilities if not status) than Pox Riders. As discussed, I don't think we could move Flamers to Special unless they were reduced in power some way (perhaps with the range decrease we discussed before) or upped their cost a bit to reduce potential spamming of them.

So it could look something like this:
Core: PB's, BL's, Nettes's, Horrors, Toads.
Special: Hounds, Nurglings, Screamers, Seekers, Burning Chariot + potentially Blood Chariot, Seeker Chariot, Fiends, Crushers, Furies.
Rare: Beasts, Flamers, Eye, Behemoth, Phantasm +potentially Fiends, Crushers, Blood Chariot, Seeker Chariot.

So far the only one I'm definite about is moving Furies to Special. Many of the other changes could happen but I would like to think on it a bit more and listen to others opinions first.

EDIT
Cross-posted with Tremendous. Thanks for the feedback and I'm glad you like much of the stuff we are trying to do here. Like you I'm quite excited by the possibilites the Eye brings to the army, particularly mono-Tzeentch forces, and it will probably be one of the first units I try out. If you have any more thoughts we would be glad to hear them.

[DaemonReign]

@ Tremendous
What JonathanC ended off with, basically. Thanks for the feedback, and don't hesitate to contribute as much as you like.

Regarding JonathanC's post above
All right good recap on Karanak, as far as I am concerned anyway.
I have nothing to add concerning Rivalry and Beasts of Nurgle either.

Moving Furies to Special is probably the only 'serious' thing we could suggest for them. Before making the edit though: Still a definate 'no' to those optional 'Marks' (in any shape or form) that we discussed before?
I've come to accept the lack there-of, of course, but if we're making them a Special unit perhaps it would be an idea for revisiting? Not planning on spending a page arguing this point though. Just something I wanted to bring up before we do the edit. And also: Pointcost still good at 11pts or would Special-status prompt an increase back to 12pts?

Core/Special/Rare
Aside of moving Furies to Special, I'd say what we should focus on is simply the possibility of moving Crushers and Fiends to the Special Section.
Flamers are Rare 'for a reason'. Beasts of Nurgle are the only Nurgle Daemons in that Section.
Then I write in the Designer's Notes that the move to Special of the Crushers and Fiends is conditional on the inclusion of the Behemoth/Phantasm.
Something like that.
Or are you saying you'd prefer the Chariots in the Rare Section, JonathanC? Because I acknowledge they could be but I just think they appear as more fitting to the Special Section.

[TheRealVeon]

Yeah, Beasts and Flamers shouldn't be special for the reasons DaemonReign already listed. I would be alright with moving the Crushers and Fiends, and I would also say we should just go ahead and do that if people feel that's it's actually necessary.

Chariots should be special, but that's just a personal preference. They just seem like a special choice (or core, if your Tomb Kings or... Wolf Chariot? Is that a core?). I also agree that the Furies should be special as long as they get a bump to their leadership as well. Minimum of 5. I think that moving them to special but keeping them ld 2 just doesn't fit.

[DaemonReign]

As Und_Ed pointed out earlier the Rare section is getting awfully crowded as we have it written now. So yes, I know this will mean some tweaking (especially for you RealVeon) I'd say we move Crushers and Fiends to Special rightaway - and worry about contingencies when get to PlayTesting.

* Good thing Special and Rare choices have the same allowance for the amount of pts they can spend on Icons ey? Otherwise we'd have that whole mess on our hands as well.

Furies
I'll submit that if we move them to Special bumping their Ld to 5 and letting them cost 13pts would sound pretty fair to my ears.

* Not that it matters too much anymore as I assume we're all mostly looking in the pdf's at this point, but I'll go ahead and make these edits rightaway:
- Crushers and Fiends to Special.
- Furies to Special as well (all though I won't touch their Ld-value or cost just yet, let's give people some chance to come back on that one).

EDIT
There... That took me about 10 seconds. I certainly don't envy you at times like these RealVeon..

Now, about Bloodcrushers and Fiends moving to Special.. Does that warrant a change for the requirement of "minimum unit size", currently 1+ in both cases. Now that I am looking at Crushers right next to PoxRiders it seems either PoxRiders should be 1+ or Bloodcrushers (and consequently Fiends) ought really to go to 3+ unit size.

Aside of the no small issue of looking more consistant, we'd also mitigate the contingency of especially Fiends going to the 50% slot instead of the 25% slot. Just imagine the horrible stuff people could do by spamming those "lone fiends" as WM-hunters (currently the most 'viable' use for Fiends according to many a Daemon player).

So yeah.. If we move these units to Special 3+ unit size seems only logical to me. How about you guys?

Furies in the Special Section actually opens up for alot of things as far as I am concerned. Raising their horrendous Leadership wouldn't be the first thing that comes to my mind to be honest (all though I have no strong opinions either way) ... I mean: Aside of making it possible to give them one of the four Marks, I wouldn't be against giving them another Attack (at the appropriate increase in cost, naturally).

Right now they are just "hit or miss" throw-away WM-hunters. In the special Section we could "live" with them being a tad more expensive - is my reasoning - but once we pay for them we'll want them to be slightly more reliable. RealVeon's sentiment about the Leadership aims at the same 'issue' of course, all I am saying is if they had 2 S4 attacks they'd seldom lose any combats against your typical WM-crews.

Also: Wouldn't moving Furies to Special prompt a cap in maximum Unit Size?

Oh so many questions. I'll shut up now. Over and out for tonight guys!

[und_ed]

I think the min unit sizes makes sense in the special slot. Wow, that was a short post for this thread...

-und_ed

[TheRealVeon]

I agree with the 3+ base size.

You make an interesting argument about the Furies. Instead of raising their leadership, give them an extra attack. That way, if they do attack anything, you better be sure that you're going to win combat. Otherwise, they're almost guaranteed to melt away. It would make for interesting tactical decisions.

That being said, I think that Furies are too insignificant to get marks. And even if they got them, what benefit would each mark provide? And how would giving them these benefits not make them super-good units to take? While I agree with moving them to Special and even raising their leadership or attacks, Talonz is right that they should be pretty low in the eyes of the Great Powers. He's already going to have an aneurysm just from what we'd already discussed, and I don't want to see him hurt.

[DaemonReign]

* Edited page 1 (Crushers and Fiends are now Unit Size 3+). I doubt 'anyone' is gonna be opposed to that change.

Furies
I don't know if 2A is a 'better edit' compared to upping the Leadership. I guess the 2A would be my favorite. That would mean that Furies became better at doing what they're intended to do. If we increase the Leadership they could suddenly act as a flying speedbump - i.e. they wouldn't melt away so fast anymore if you sent lots of them into the front of some big nasty unit. I guess the difference isn't that big if we only increase Ld to 5, but still..
Keeping the abysmal Ld-value also communicates this general lowliness of Furies that we're also discussing. They'd be a Special Choice because of their "Wings" (and because units that don't count to any requirement seem to be on the way out judging by the new VC book) - but they'd still definately be the "lowest" of Daemons and the horrible Ld would represent that.

As for the Marks: We discussed two version of this, one "slight" version and one more powerfull version.
Both versions - discussed almost 100 pages ago at this point - were based on the traits that are common to Daemons of Certain Marks.
Mark of Khorne - MR1 (or Hatred)
Mark of Tzeentch - Flaming Attacks (or 4+ Ward)
Mark of Nurgle - Poison Attacks (or Regen)
Mark of Slaanesh - AP Attacks (or ASF)

The alternative in brackets was the more powerfull version discussed.
The cost of these Marks would differ of course.
In any case, I'm just doing this recap to explain what I was talking about with respect to these Marks. I really liked them at the time. At this stage however I'm certainly prepared to "move on" without Furies getting any upgrades (Nurglings, FleshHounds etcetera don't have "upgrades" either and I agree that Furies should remain quite "mundane" as far as Daemons go).

[Lord Tremendous]

As I post this please know I have not read all 109 pages of this thread. Its really long, alot of debate, and I came in waaaaay late. So if these questions and suggestions are deemed unhelpful please just let me know and any feedback I place from now on will be adjusted accordingly.

My first question/suggestion is about the addition of the Monsters (Behemoth, Eye, Phantasm). 3 out of the four gods have them and yet Nurgle... the most monsterous of them all, has been passed over for a big monster. I don't fully understand why this is... however I can see why they would be with the pox riders being added to their roster. I do have a suggestion for a unit to add to Nurgle as a 0-1 rare choice and, please, I see this as nothing more than a suggestion.

My idea is a Nurgle Warmachine that acts as a stone thrower that uses the small template. Same ranges and shooting characteristics as a Hellcannon of course but with anything (Friend or foe... unless they are mark nurgle {Nurgle marked WoC would be unaffected for example} ) under the template having to take a T test or take a wound with no armor save and if a model is under the hole it takes a wound on a 2+ with no AS allowed as well as it doing D3 wounds. Basically a big herpes thrower that is crewed by a base of nurglings (Perhaps an upgrade option for the unit would allow you to raise the amount of nurglings crewing the warmachine thereby upping its attacks in CC as well as its wounds.) Nurgle would, of course, see this as a way of bringing his gifts of diesease to the mortal realm and the unit could be called Wretched Benevolance or Plague Dispenser. Either way it could be priced around 200 points, have high T, and regen. As well as a miscast chart but with a twist. On a one the machine would be destroyed thru some sort of magical flux, on a two the shot hits exactly as if it was a direct hit but the shot grants the units it hit a 5+ regen for a full turn as the wrong formula was fired from the warmachine. 3-4 would be cant shoot this turn or next, while 5-6 would be just cant shoot.

Anyway, the tacticle value adding a warmachine type unit to our book would be worth its weight in gold and the fact that its Nurgle supplying it should make for alot of very interesting builds.

My next suggestion would be adding a cav unit to Tzeentch's choices. I'm thinking like a flamer that has been moulded into a horse shape (Loosely) with a pink horror riding it. They could actually be called Purple or Orange Horrors and the reasoning could be because of the color change that happens when Tzeentch combines the two. MV 7 WS3 S5 T4 A2 W1 I4, 6+AS for being mounted and a 4+ ward because thats a defineing characteristic of Tzeentch. The twist is they get a single STR 5 shot from the flamer mounts and while they aren't considered Fast cav, they still move like fast cav. After all, the lord of change's cav unit should be allowed to change formation all it wants. Upgrades could grant them flying, extra shots, or perhaps the ability to cast flickering fire of Tzeentch from the UC on a 5+ in the magic phase (Although he couldn't generate a PD or DD.) All attacks would be flaming of course. (I know the idea of a flame on a screamer is there but I think that flamers with screamer mounts could easily be confused with a HoTz on a disc (As that conversion is done often) and in the end.... no offense... more of a hassel than a boon to the game.

My final suggestion is a play on the banners. To temper these banner ideas (And lower their points cost... MAYBE) was that you roll a D6 on and depending on what you roll determines when the banner's ability takes effect. So if you roll a 2 on a D6 the banners effect is only in play for turn 2. The banners coincide with Mono-God lists as they should imo. For effect, I will call them EPIC banners... because I can! lol!

A tzeentch theme epic banner would make ALL Tzeentch units Ward saves go up by one for that particual turn. A nurgle banner would make their regen save go up by one or their poison attacks work on a 5+ for just that turn. Khorne could reroll all failed ward saves for a turn or make all shooting at khorne units only hit on a 5+ with no rerolls allowed. For Slaanesh maybe make their Armor Piercing rule take a further -1 to the target's AS. OR, they could apply the Armor piercing rule to both AS AND Ward saves.

Anyway.... These are my ideas but really, as the project sits now, I think if the book followed the way its currently going it'll be one of the more balanced books in the WHFB series so far. Not to mention competitive and fun! (Still really hope the Eye of Tzeentch makes the final cut. lol!)

Please let me know if feedback like this is useful or not. This project has really caught my attention.

-Tremendous

[TheRealVeon]

I think the reason they went without a new Nurgle monster was mostly the reasons you already gave: Nurgle got new core and a new special so the other three got new (rare) monsters. Also, since most of Nurgle's daemons look a lot like him, a giant Nurgle monster is probably not going to be very distinguishable from a Great Unclean One. So there's that too.

As for your war machine idea: I'm sorry, but I don't really think war machines are a daemonic thing. Same goes for shooting in general. I'm mean, there's one unit that's dedicated to shooting and that's it. We don't really want to make Daemons have something of everything; they should be a specialized army. I'm sure Vampire Counts would like some shooting, but they don't get any period. Also, your suggestion sounds a lot like Ku'Gath's shot, so you could always take him in larger games, if throwing (nurglings) stones is your thing.

As for Tzeentch Cavalry, we do have a Changebringer upgrade to the Flamers. Don't know if you spotted that or not since it doesn't have a unit entry, it's just an upgrade. I do sometimes wish that Daemons had a cavalry entry, not just a fast or monstrous one. But again, Daemons can't be good at everything, and since we're talking of moving the Bloodcrushers to special, they may be more popular that way.

As for the Banners: I worry that they may be too fluffy. We do have some stuff that randomly happens (Tzeentch spells for example). But if there's too much randomness, I feel that the army tends to play you instead of you playing the army. I've said up-thread (which I can't believe you haven't read [/joking]) that while I understand and appreciate that 'fluffiness' of the Orcs and Goblins's Animosity rule, I feel it's too random to make that army very competitive. You just have to expect your army to do stuff you don't want it to do. The same would go for random banners. You can't really plan any strategy with them since you can't rely on them, so you have to build your army as if they weren't there, so they may as well not be there at all. While they may be cool, I'm afraid the randomness would drive people away and they wouldn't bother with them at all.

Sorry to rain on all your ideas. Also, don't worry about not reading the whole thread. At this point, it's such a beast, I'd be surprised if anyone has read the whole thing (except for DaemonReign). And maybe not even him.

[DaemonReign]

Well I have read the entire thread. But it's getting too big to keep in my head now of course. Karanak was a good example of that: I remembered roughly how the discussion went about Karanak, but I forgot the conclusion (good thing JonathanC stepped in to clear that up).

Don't think anyone would read it from start-to-finnish. I'm the topic starter for crist's sake.

The reason for "not adding a Nurgle Monster" is exactly that: Forgeworld has already introduced PlagueToads and PoxRiders. At any rate, even if we didn't include those units - I'd still argue that adding "nothing but Rare Monsters" probably wouldn't be the way to go.

Your ideas, Lord Tremendous, are fluffy and inspired. As you say yourself - in so many words - a bit 'late' concidering the status this project is at right now. It's sort of the same sad face we have been forced to give some other gamers coming here lately concluding (for example) that Daemons and Warriors should be made into one book once more. Totally different from what you're suggesting, of course, but still turning things up-side-down to an extent that I don't think anyone has the mental stamina for at this time.

That Nurgle Stonethrower does remind me alot of Kugath, quite simply. So that option is always there.

Giving Daemons access to 'shooting' on a more general basis than Flamers is probably just not gonna fly with GW or most players for that matter. We have added about the "same" amount of weird shooting in this re-write as was added to the new VC book (what with Terrorgheist etcetera) via the addition of a couple of Gifts for Khorne (and the Phantasm and Eye of Tzeentch has some more shooting).

Bottom line is there's just so much we felt we could add while keeping any guise of "seriousness". Alot of ideas that were really cool have been shot down and discarded for reasons of being too "unorthodox" or 'unprecedented' compared to the game as we know it.

I'm glad that our re-write appears as 'balanced' and so forth. I think the few of us who've really taken this project seriously all have little 'issues' that we're worrying about. I personally worry about the ability to increase Wardsave/Regen, and I am sure JonathanC and RealVeon has other worries..

Anyway, some interesting brainstorming there Lord Tremendous. Alas the harsh conclusion must be that we're simpy too far gone to make such radical changes. Well, the intent of this project was really to be as moderate as possible - too - but it wouldn't have hurt if you had aired these ideas on page 9 rather than page 109.

Hope you stay with us through playtesting and what-not. It's really great to see your enthusiasm over our humble little project!

[Lord Tremendous]

Totally understand all of that. The project got me interested is all and my twisted little mind just started racing with ideas.

I plan to follow this thread and look forward to the playtesting results. Although I don't think I'll abandon my quest for nurgle to get a monster added as well. It just seems like so much lost potential there even with their new core and special choices.

In any event thanks for taking to time to be honest with my ideas. When do yo think the playtesting itself will begin? Or has it started already?

-Tremendous

[DaemonReign]

A Nurgle Monster is not an impossibility at all. In fact, there's no certainty what-so-ever that those Forgeworld Toads gets added to a new official GW DoC Army Book.

I'm personally not a fan of adding 'Warmachines' to Daemons. That issue is actually adressed specifically in the Designer's Notes that I've been drafting on the 3rd post of page 1.

We're pretty close to PlayTesting. But we've been saying that for about 10 pages of this thread now it seems. Basically, the idea now is to proof-read the latest version of RealVeon's PDF so that we get a "final" source to base our testing on.

Moving certain units to the Special Slot got a bit in the way of that this week though.

But like I said: We're fairly close.

[JonathanC]

Well I think DaemonReign and RealVeon responded to your points very well Lord Tremendous, I would just say that when it comes to a Nurgle monster, as well as already having 2 new units from FW, it sort of felt appropriate for the GUO to still be much bigger than the other Nurgle Daemons.

I've also been a bit wary when it comes to creating completely new Daemons. Since they were first introduced to Warhammer they have only created 4 new types - Screamers, Heralds, Plague Toads and Furies, and 3 of those are just modifications of existing Daemons, so we're actually being quite radical in creating 2 completely new Daemons with no antecendants in The Eye and the Phanstam. This is also partly why we have gone for Changebringers rather than creating something new, but also because many long-term players (like me) still have old conversions of them from when they used to part of the army.

I quite like the Epic banners idea, but I'm also pretty happy with the ones we have already.

Still, glad to see your enthusiasm. Its a shame you weren't on this forum when the project started or you might have been able to influence things more.

Returning to the current order of business, I don't see why moving Furies to Special should automatically mean they need some sort of price increase. I'd either leave them as they are, or put them back up to 12pts with Ld5. I don't like the idea of extra attacks as it makes them better fighters than Plaguebearers, and I'm not a huge fan of marks either. Keep 'em simple I say. Remember also that if we increase the unit size of Fiends and Crushers then Furies, Screamers and Nurglings will be the only "chaff" units, so thats another reason to keep them cheap.

Fiends going up to unit sizes of 3+ will be hated by a lot of players I think, but may be necessary. I seem to remember this was something we had in before due to comments made by Big Al. At least Screamers offer an alternative option to the single Fiend now they have been improved and made 2+ units. With the Bloodcrushers however I would start them at 2+ similar to Ogre Mournfangs due to their higher base cost. I can't think of any other unit that has a starting cost of over 200pts for a minimum size unit, but I don't think Bloodcrushers should be cheaper than we have them already.

I think that'll do for now.

EDIT: something else I meant to mention was that I saw the other day there is a thread like this one going on the Beastmen forum, where the OP says he got the idea after seeing it on another forum. I can't help wondering if it was this one. There's is up to 19 pages already even though it has been going less than a month. I'm no doubt biased, but I think we have shown more restraint - quite a few of their suggestions veer too close to wishlisting for my liking.

[DaemonReign]

So you suggest 2+ Unit size for Crushers.
I'm personally fine either way (which might not be surpricing), but I am a little bit concerned about consistency here. Wouldn't the best way to go, in that case, to make also Fiends and PoxRiders 2+ (?)

And arn't Bloodknights 50pts each and 4+ unit size? Are do I have that wrong? It's just you said you couldn't think of unit that costs 200pts minimum.

As for Daemon Players "hating" that they will no longer be able to take lone Fiends for chaff.. Well I guess that is true. Then again, isn't the "risk" about equal that alot of "other" players hate the fact that we're getting Fiends from the Special Allowance rather than Rare?
At least I would guess that it sort of balances itself out. Or so I hope anyway.

Help an idiot out JonathanC: Are Mournfangs a Special Choice? *lol*
Not that it really matters as far as the 2+ unit size goes. I think your comparison is good and all, it's not that.. It's just we'd have the Special Section completely riddled with "unit sizes" ranging from 2+ (PoxRiders, Crushers, Nurglings, Screamers) to 3+ (Fiends) to 5+ (Seekers).

Well.. Thinking on it a bit more perhaps it isn't a problem really..

Furies
If 'all' we're talking about is raising their cost by one digit and their Leadership to 5 then I have to say I'm completely ambivalent on this issue. And don't get me wrong: Like I said before I have no strong opinion about that second attack I mentioned as a possibility, so I'm not whining about that either (!).

It's just Ld 5 is still pretty damn bad. So outside of the Inspiring Presence bubble they are still gonna melt away to the slightest setback in combat resolution. To me, personally, I guess I'd almost prefer to get them a bit cheaper (i.e. 11pts as we have them pinned).

Then again, if RealVeon feels strongly about this and if you (JonathanC) are onboard as well I'm certainly not gonna try and stop this edit either. Just saying that - to me - it seems slightly on the side of being a 'meaningless' change.

But then these 'numbers' ain't my cup of cynaide, as we all know, so I might just be incorrect.

Well try to find time tommorrow to start proof-reading. Just thought I'd mention it because things have gotten slightly delayed over here.

EDIT
Well it's good to hear we're the "original and best"!
To be perfectly honest, I think there's something to say for our 100+ pages of thread here. I have never seen a "re-write" coming near to this standard. I think non-Daemon players giving us credit is the ultimate proof of that.

[TheRealVeon]

Yes, Mournfangs are special. I'm not too worried about the different unit sizes. I think they should be based more off of the strength or utility of the unit in question and not some sort of trans-section homogeneity. I don't recall the unit size on the Black Knights, but I think keeping basic costs under 200 points is a good goal to shoot for in any case. And by the way, Pox Riders are currently listed as 3+ on page 1. Is the 2+ is the Tamurkhan book or some place? Do we want them to be 2+ or 3+?

I see your point about the leadership, and keeping them cheap is probably for the best. So unless Jonathan thinks they should go up, let's keep them as they are. Although I do find it amusing that our "lowliest" Daemon costs as much as a Grave Guard.

I may be offline for the next couple of days, so don't worry if you don't hear from me. The good news is that I won't be away from my computer so I'll probably get all the drawings done and hopefully a lot of the fluff text as well. To tide everyone over here's updated pdf's.

No pics

http://www.mediafire.com/?unrv8tw367jaayr

Pics

http://www.mediafire.com/?8ef7cfhsh534i3h

Does anyone care about the one without pics? I know someone was saying that they were having trouble loading the pdf in the other thread, so I was going to keep it as a low-'res' option. But if no one really looks at it, I can just focus on the other one.