Fair enough RealVeon.
For the 'Inspiring Presence' I'd be rather ambivalent to which version to go for, in the end. - If I had to choose one!
For 'Hold Your Ground' I do admit there's a certain concistency in letting the 'Rivalry' effect also this
mechanic, I guess it'd be 'ok' with it as long as Undivided Icons remain 'universiall benefactors' - all though seriously wouldn't at least the "5th Marked BSB Icons" deserve a slight discount in actual cost given that they'd come with a whole set of restrictions all of a sudden:
1 - May only be taken by Herald of corresponding Mark..
2 - ... if the General is of corresponding Mark
3 - ... In which case no Unaligned Daemons benefit from 'Hold Your Ground' and;
4 - ... In which case no Unaligned Daemons benefit from 'Inspiring Presence'.
We have a saying in Sweden that goes something like 'Putting a cake ontop of another cake'
and even though the portent is probably lost in the shrewd translation it's what I have ringing in my head when I see this supposedly 'background-related' restriction.
But like I said: 'Fine' (!)
I'll be the first to admit it's a 'fluffy' mechanic. Certainly worth being fleshed out in the Designer's Notes, but judging from the comments on the last couple of pages a majority seems 'doubtfull' (at best) so adding this version of Daemonic Rivalry as 'hard fact'-suggestions in the re-write is something I'd think trice about.
Undead, Talonz, and Bonesaw666 have all stated their dislike (at least as I interpret it) of any kind
of restrictions that go in this direction.
Me and TheRealVeon can perhaps be described as 'neutral' (?) and at least in my case I'm really only on this bandwagon as long as the Daemon Prince gets to keep a Ld value of 9.
JonathanC I interpret to be more or less in the 'pro-Rivalry' camp. He'll have to say himself whether he actually thinks it's of paramount importance in the end - at least his posts has been rather 'diplomatic' on the subject.
And then finally we got TheDarkGeneral who'd likely say 'Well it's better than Nothing!
with respect to these suggestions. And I know there's loads of players who reside in his camp (lamenting the split of the Chaos Factions and virtually everything that came with that!) but catering fully to such sentiments is just impossible unless we're gonna completely revise the fundamental premises of this re-write at the last minute (i.e. drop the philosophy of actually 'building on the current Army Book').
So right now I am feeling that I should finnish drafting the Designer's Notes for the Daemonic Magic Lores. Which will give us some more time to head-but this issue, but in the end 'most of it' probably belongs in the Designer's Notes.
What we can do right away is come JonathanC's way about the access to Marked Icons for the Battle Standard Bearer. Let's stipulate that your General must be of the same Mark for any
Marked Icons to be available to the BSB. This one I'll gladly go along with, as I suspect JonathanC will be more or less dissappointed with 'merely' adding the rest to the Designer's Notes.
How does that sound people?EDIT
*Just finnished drafting Designer's Notes for the Slaanesh Lore. Only the Nurgle Lore left now. Probably have that done this evening!EDIT 2
*Actually just finnished drafting the Designer's Notes for the Nurgle Lore as well. Moving on to dealing with some other things on the page 1 "Main Re-write" Summary now..EDIT 3
Ok so I cleaned up the Section for Daemonic Icons on page 1, like so:
Daemonic Icons are 'Magic Standards'
and therefore only 1 of each Icon can be present in the same Army, unlike Daemonic Gifts that may be duplicated on different Characters. Any spells or items that effect 'Magic Standards'
therefore also effects Daemonic Icons, unless specifically noted otherwise.Icon Allowance for Daemonic Units:Core Units
= Any Icon of Corresponding Mark costing up to 35pts Special/Rare
= Any Icon of Corrsponding Mark costing up to 50ptsThe Battle Standard Bearer
= May pick any of the Undivided Battle Standards. May also pick any Icon of corresponding Mark when the General of the Army also has the same Mark. Note that a Daemonic Herald may carry a Battle Standard and also choose Daemonic Gifts as normal.Khorne Icons
1) Skull totem
: Unit automatically passes all “Enemy Sighted” tests. - 15pts
2) Icon of Endless War
: Extra D6" to first charge of the game. - 25pts
3) Banner of the Blood God's Blessing
: +1 Magic Resistance for the unit (to a maximum of 3). - 20pts
4) Icon of Crimson Carnage
: The unit gains the Hatred Special rule. If a Herald of Khorne is in the unit they get to re-roll their missed to hit rolls in every round of combat, not just the first. - 50 pointsSlaanesh Icons
1) Banner of Ecstasy
: Stubborn for unit’s first break test. - 25pts
2) Siren Standard
: Enemy may only hold as charge reaction. - 25pts
3) Icon of Exhilarating Vapours
: The unit gains the benefits of the Soporific Musk gift - 25pts
4) Icon of Enchanting Beauty
: Enemy unit wishing to shoot at unit carrying this standard must pass a Leadership test or may not fire this turn - 35ptsNurgle Icons
1) Icon of Eternal Virulence
: Poisoned wounds count double resolution - 20pts
2) Standard of Seeping Decay
: The unit may re-roll failed ToWound rolls when making close combat attacks - 35pts
3) Pestilent Shroud Standard
: The unit counts as being in soft cover (-1 ToHit modifyer) to enemy shooting. - 30pts
4) Icon of Stench
: All enemy models in base contact with the unit gain the Always Strikes Last special rule (exactly as the effect of the 'Noxious Vapours' Gift) 50ptsTzeentch Icons
1) Icon of Sorcery
: Pink Horrors in the unit get +1 To Cast. - 25 points.
2) Banner of Change
: Once per Friendly magic phase, D6 SD6 Hits against one enemy unit in base contact with banner bearer – 25 points
3) Vortex Standard
: Pink Horrors in the unit get +1 to their channelling attempts. - 25 points.
4) Icon of the Essence
: Pink Horrors ignore their first Miscast (exactly like Dark Magister
Gift) - 20 points.The Undivided Battle Standards
1. Great Standard of Sundering:
At the start of the game, choose one Lore of magic. All casting attempts made by any wizards using this lore are at -2. In addition, any wizard using the lore of light will suffer a miscast on a casting roll that includes a double 1 or 2. - 60pts Or *same function as currently* but 70pts cost!*
2. Standard of Chaos Glory
- 100pts *same function*
3. Banner of Unholy Victory
100pts = +D6 to CR
4. Great Icon of Despair
65pts = All Enemies within 12" have -1 Ld Penalty.Note that the Banner of Hellfire has been removed, while its 'name' has been recycled as Tzeentch Marked BSB!The Marked Battle Standards*The requirement for a Battle Standard Bearer to pick any of these Icons is that his own Mark corresponds to the Icon in question, as well as the Mark of the General of the Army. Battle Standard Bearers gain access to any of the other Marked Icons in the same way.
(1) Khorne:The Banner of Martial Pride
: Whenever the unit with this banner suffers an unsaved wound from a ranged attack in the shooting phase, the firing unit immediately takes a S3 hit (resolved as shooting). In addition, if a spell cast by a wizard (friend or foe) in any way affects the unit with this banner (including randomly moving templates in subsequent turns, spells that have no target, and friendly augments or enemy hexes which target all units within a range) then the casting wizard suffers a S6 hit. – 75pts
(2) SlaaneshBanner of Intoxication
: Enemy units in base contact with the unit carrying this banner are never steadfast. – 70pts
(3) NurgleStandard of Endless Rot
: +1 Regeneration for the unit. – 80pts
(4) TzeentchBanner of Hellfire
: At the start of each combat phase, all enemy models in base contact with the banner bearer’s unit takes a S3 flaming hit. Any wounds caused in this process are added to combat resolution. – 70 points
Did I miss anything? EDIT
I really must say that our revised Icon Section is looking great as far as I am concerned. It's so neat and consistant the way each Section has 4 basic choices.
And for the record I really think the restriction on the BSB is exactly the kind of "fluffy" thing we're looking for.. I just can't help thinking restricting Inspiring Presence as well
is too much.. Or not too much perhaps.. It's just that we'd no longer be talking about something strictly background related but instead something that alot of players would concider a definate "comp", so to speak.EDIT
Essentially: I think that if we're serious about creating a set of rules geared toward inspiring 'associated' lists, strictly based on background and explicitly not effecting 'balance' or 'freedom of choice' then we have to make the available choice a 'positive' thing rather than a 'negative'.
Our set-up of the BSB access to Marked Icons would be an example of a 'positive' choice. I.e. it's not going to "hurt" your Army in any way to have the General be of a different Mark to that of the BSB-Herald, but if you align them you'll get a little 'benefit' in terms of a wider variety in choices for Icons that Herald has access to (any unused unit-icon + the Marked BSB).
The idea of restriction Inspiring Presence (and Hold Your Ground re-rolls) is the opposite kind of rule. A negative choice. Where you are forced to build your list in a very particular way in order for these fundamental mechanics to work like they do in 'every other army'. Hence you are penalized unless following a strict philosophy of list-building, in which case you don't so much gain anything but instead just reach 'equality' for these mechanics compared to other armies.
I'm all in favor of associated rules. I think we've done a pretty good job so far on fleshing out the precedence of the current Army Book in that direction.
An example of a 'positive' mechanic that I just thought of (probably won't fly, either with you guys are GW but just a brainstorming example!) is to give an incentive to for 'associated' Daemons Armies by saying that:If you spend your Core Requirement on Daemons from one single Mark you may count any Furies toward that same Core Requirement!
Again, this is not a 'serious' suggestion as such - I'm just trying to display what I mean by creating 'positive' incentives rather than negative ones.
Another idea could be:If you spend your Core Requirement on Daemons from one single Mark you may count 1 Rare Unit as Special
You may argue that such mechanics would be strange given the precedence of 8th Edition - but honestly no more 'strange' or unorthodox compared to the "Inspiring Presence for half of your [theorethical] army"
that JonathanC is suggesting.
Any of the above suggestions (Furies counting to Core, or one Rare choice becoming Special) would furthermore be truly synergistic with the positive restrictions we've implemented on the BSB's access to Mark Icons. Because if all your Core troops are (say) Bloodletters, so that you can take a Skullshrine from the Special Allowance, then naturally you'd have a strong incentive to get a HoK BSB and a BT-General as well - and viola(!) suddenly you've been steered into building a very associated list without having to sit there and grind your teeth in hatred of a rules-designer who may have creative negative restrictions on your favorite army that you find completely arbitrary and boring.
Anyway.. I might do some further tweaking on page 1 at this point. I did see some "wordings" in the Icon Section for example that can be written better. But other than that I'll try to refrain from making this wall of text any taller before I get some feedback from the rest of the board.
May the dark gods be with you. EDIT
I tweaked the wording a little bit for the two "new" Unit Icons in the Nurgle Section, just so that they read more clearly.. The change has been pasted into the 'sample' of the Icon Section above as well so you don't need to go to page 1 to review it.EDIT
Are everybody appreciating the impact of the 3rd wound we've given to Bloodcrushers, as well as the suggested addition of the 'Serpent of Slaanesh' and Behemoth of Khorne (as mount options)?
Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut will get 3 wounds.
Herald of Slaanesh on Serpent will get 3 wounds.
Herald of Khorne Battle Standard Bearer on Behemoth will have an 18" radius for 'Hold Your Ground'.
Just something I've been thinking about lately really.. We're adding things a bit unevenly to the Marks here (Tzeentch and Nurgle won't have access to 3-wound Heralds not 18" BSB-bubbles)... I'm not saying it's a problem just asking if the rest of you are conscious of these facts. (?)EDIT
While I'm at it with 'second guessing' stuff in general:
We removed the Winged Horror Gift (DP gets wings by an upgrade specific to its profile, Herald of Tzeentch has to buy a disc to Fly..) - now, at the time when we made this decision I thought we had pretty good reason (prevent abuse, basically) and as with the above mentioning of the Jugger/Serpent/Behemoth issue I haven't really changed my mind either.. But this certainly seems like the kind of 'edit' that will disgruntle lots of players who's been building "HoT with Wings" models for an Edition-and-a-half.. Is it worth it?