Herald Composition

Good point, MTF8.

He essentially seems to be arguing that "it would be okay for every other round of combat for the affected models to strike last - due to the Noxious Vapors effect....EXCEPT the first round that they Charge in on....that time...the fact that they have Charged and that is the reason they normally would be allowed to Strike First....THAT time...they get to Ignore the effect of the Noxious Vapors."


Not the following round, of course, even if they had higher Initiative and would normally be able to strike first in that instance....no...THEN they would be affected by the Noxious Vapors.....but if they've Charged, then all that goes out the window and the charging models are completely unaffected by the gift.

Yes, it appears in the weapons section. So what?

We've got two rules. 1) Chargers attack after always strike first models and before everyone else. 2) People with the "strike last" rule strike last unless they're charging. There's no inconsistency.

What you have to argue is that when GW says "strike last" in the gift description, they don't mean "strike last" as defined in the BRB. I don't see any reason to think that though. When they say "wound" they mean "wound" as it is used in the BRB, despite it having a different common English definition. When they say a Slaanesh Herald "always strike first" they don't mean standard English "always" they mean it follows the "always strike first" rule in the BRB (incidentally that's in the weapon section too).

It doesn't make sense to think that technical game terms that get defined in the rules aren't what the designers mean when they use those terms later. A Slaanesh Herald doesn't always strike first, a Keeper of Secrets & impact hits for instance will strike before him, what he does is follow the "always strike first" rule, which does not in fact make him always strike first.

In exactly the same way, someone who "always strikes last" follows that rule.

Respectfully, Gyges, you are really cutting up the words to come to your conclusion. Are you telling us this is how people in your area play Noxious Vapors ?

Consider what you said in your point-1: Chargers strike "After Always Strike First models, and before everyone else"....

So...according to your strange interpretation of Noxious Vapors' wording, if we had an instance of an Always Strikes First model already in Base-to-base with a Nurgle Herald having the Gift in question.....and during your turn, you charge a unit of Great Weapon wielding infantry in against that same Herald... you seem to think the turn/attack order would be resolved as follows:

(going off your "point-1" quoted above)


1.) Always Strike First model would get to attack BUT WAIT ~! - because he is touching a Nurgle Herald with Noxious Vapors, he doesn't get to Always Strike First, and instead must strike last. So let's put him at the bottom of the attack order, and move on to the next consideration.


2.) Chargers. The unit of Great Weapon wielding troops has charged in. Now, because it's Charged, it "gets to strike first" - - - which, according to you means it's not affected by Noxious Vapors...this is the part that is confusing to me. The Always Strikes First model above DID get hit by the Noxious Vapors....but the ones that Charged, and got to Strike First as a result of that....DON'T get impacted by the Gift ?


3.) Finally the Nurgle Herald gets to go.


4.) Lastly the Always Strikes First model, who you feel DOES get slowed up by the Vapors, is forced to "Strike Last".

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Very strange interpretation of the attack order.

I don't see how getting models who "strike last" to follow the "strike last" rules is strange. "I don't like the result" isn't an argument.

There isn't really any more I can say.

That part is not strange. What is strange is that you seem to be classifying models who Always Strike First as a result of their special rules, an item or weapon they have, or a spell effect, etc - as being somehow DIFFERENT from a model that has gained Always Strikes First as a result of Charging an opposing unit.

That's the only thing I think we find curious. All the other aspects of the Gift and its application are clear. But why you think a Charging-Strike First is different, fundamentally, from any other kind of "Strike First" is what is hard to understand.

Of course striking first from charging is different from striking first from ASF. You know the difference between a charging strike first and ASF. They're not the same thing.

A Chaos Lord charges a Herald of Slaanesh.
Who goes first?

Chargers don't get "always strike first". Always strike first is a special rule which is unconnected from charging. "Strike last" is also a special rule independent of (and trumped by) charging.

There is no question that the attack order in Warhammer goes like this:

1) Impact hits.
2) ASF by initiative
3) Chargers
4) Everyone else by initiative.
5) Strikes last.

There is no question about that order, the only question is whether when the rulebook says "strike last" they mean to follow the "strikes last" rule. The order above isn't in question, or rather shouldn't be.

But Gyges....do you realize what you are saying then ?

Essentially, if we played it the way you are arguing, then a Charging Model which just so happens to ALSO have the Always Strikes First rule (say a High Elf Hero of some sort).....WOULD be affected by the Noxious Vapors, and lose his ASF....and "strike last" - per the wording of Noxious Vapors.....


BUT....a "plain old Empire Infantry model" - which also happens to charge the Herald of Nurgle that same round (team game, let's say)....who does NOT "normally" have Always Strikes First as a special rule, etc - - - but who gains the ability to "Strike First" due to his Charging....he....that Empire trooper WOULD get to strike before the Herald with his Gift.

?

Do you see - intuitively - how odd that sounds ?



Hero with ASF - gets affected as you would expect by the Vapors...must strike last.

Standard scrub, with no ASF rule naturally....doesn't get affected at all, gets to ignore the Gift effect since he's "Charging" - and does get to strike before the Herald.

Harry the High Elf charges, he loses strike first, gains strike last, but is still a charging model. He strikes before the Herald.

Bob the Empire Captain charges, he has no strike first to lose, he gains strike last, but is still a charging model. He also strikes before the Herald.

What's the scandal?

Page 34 of the BRB says:

" troops that have charged that turn automatically strike first"

- emphasis mine



Daemonic Gifts - Noxious Vapors says:

"All enemy models in base contact wth this Daemon lose the Always Strikes First rule (if they have it) and always strike last."


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This right here is the reason why Noxious works the way we have been saying, and does indeed affect Charging troops.

First of all, I'll grant you that the FIRST part of Noxious Vapors' wording is clearly talking about "ACTUAL" Always Strikes First troopers...those that actually have the rule "ASF" - like High Elves, Keepers of Secrets, etc.

Now...look...there's no way you can argue the word-intent-meaning of the Gift for them...it CLEARLY says that if they had that rule...they lose it....AND...AND...AND...(that's a key word in this case)....ALWAYS STRIKE LAST !


Unless you are being purposfully stubborn, there's little way you can argue that "Always Strike Last" is the same as "strikes last" - on page-54 of the Rulebook, which is specifically talking about Great Weapons and how they work in combat.


Going beyond that ASF model example, the key part of Noxious Vapors was the fact that they put that one section in - in parentheses - making it clear that "IF the model had ASF - then it would lose it as a result of the Gift" - - - BUT...the inverse can also be true - the model might NOT have ASF naturally, so they follow that up immediately with "AND......ALWAYS STRIKE LAST".

Meaning...even if the model doesn't have ASF (the special rule) - for WHATEVER reason it may be in base contact with the Daemon (charging, continued combat, etc) - it ALWAYS STRIKE(s) LAST".

There is no "except if it's Charging, then it can ignore this Gift" - wording that you seem to be looking for in there.

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One last thing to further reinforce the point. If you'll check out page 94 of the Rulebook, you'll actually see the the Always Strikes First special rule defined. The second paragraph is of interest here:

"Models with this special rule always strike first in close combat, even before models that have charged that turn, and regardless of Initiative."

- emphasis mine


This is critical, Gyges, because it illustrates that, in GW's mind...Always Strikes First is SUPERIOR in "Speed / Turn Order" - etc - even to units that have Charged that same turn. So if Noxious Vapors clearly (literal wording) takes away Always Strikes First from a model, and forces that model to strike last (regardless of how it has gotten in combat, whether by Charging, etc)......then it's even more intuitive to think that the Vapors would work on "slower" troops that don't have ASF as a special rule, and which have Charged in against the Nurgle model.

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You somehow believe, contrary to all our quoting from the books, and the past year+ of experience of gamers around the world - who have mentioned how the rule is played in their clubs, tourneys, etc- that when Noxious Vapors tells you that a model "in base contact with the Daemon......always strikes last"....that somehow there's a secret HIDDEN exception...which only you know about....that says "EXCEPT if the model got into base contact with the Daemon by Charging that round....then it gets to ignore completely the effects of the Gift".


Please, face reality. There is no such Exception.

I really don't need this crap. Make up whatever rules you like.