Herald Composition

Although Billingsly has gone into this in the general Nurgle tactics thread, I think its a topic worth a little more in depth looking at. Simply put how do you equip your Heralds and how many do you take?

My 2000pts force is always lead by three Heralds. Once you total up their overall points cost, they're not that much cheaper than a Great Unclean One. But they benefit the army as a whole more due to the best Locus ability in the ability. Give each of these Heralds a solid bodyguard of 19 or so Plaguebearers and you have a rock steady core for larger points values. Each Herald is also a Level One Wizard. Granted this doesn't give as an effective magic phase as using a GUO but 5 dispel dice will see off most magic (unless you going against the likes of a Skaven SAD list). Use these dice to counter spells that either buff up the enemy or nerf you. Damage dealing spells (aside from fire ones which should be stopped at all costs) can be shrugged off due to the Plaguebearer's natural durability.

The general Herald is given a Palaquin, Noxious Vapours and Slime Trail. The second Herald has a similar set up but minus the Palaquin. The benefits of Slime Trail are obvious. Its there to steal that one extra combat res away from your foe. And since they won't be doing many wounds to you anyway, combat res should always lean in your favour. Vapours is made even more deadly due to the base size increase of the Palaquin. You can effect several more models and get 6 more attacks into the bargain with the added benefit of not being able to be singled out with shooting.

The final Herald is the all important BSB. When deploying your Heralds, always make sure that this guy is in the central Plaguebearer unit so his banner can effect as many units as possible. It is through Instability that you will loose the majority of your Daemons most of the time. He carries the Staff of Nurgle to our average magic phase a little more kick. The banner itself depends on what army I'm facing. If I'm going against an OTT magic army (the Skaven SAD army being another prime example) then the Banner of Sundering comes useful. Normally though I'll take the Banner of Unholy Victory.

Hi,

Perhaps I will have to rethink the Mucus Option, since I lost the BSB several Times to Heavy Cav with Fire or Killing blow Attacks.
So I will try this out on my next Games, as a (at least killing him is very expensive) Option.


Greetings Billingsly

In prolonged combat against stuff like heavy cavalry, nurgles rot can help you acctually cause some unsaved wounds.

I use a list with 2 blocks of 16 plaguebearers with in each of them a herald on palanquin, one general, one bsb with most of the time the greater standard of sundering.
Each of my herald only gets noxious vapours as most of the time I don't have the points left for slime trail(don't really see the need neither as most of the time I am able to disallow my enemy acces to my flank) and in general that makes sure that no-one will be killing the heralds because of striking last...
I do however, not make them lvl1, because I think 50pts for 1 dispell dice is a whole lot too much...

Den Tom

My Nurgle Heralds always come with the following kit:

- Noxious Vapours
- Breath Weapon

(Optional, but usually)
- Palanquin.

The only real reason to leave the Palanquin at home is because
I have an awesome model on foot that I like to field every now and
then. Gamewise it's a no-brainer to me. (6 poisoned atacks, for
14 points? Hell yes!)

The debate is obviously around the breath weapon. For me this is an
essential gift, since it forces enemy blocks to charge the unit. After
one Breath Weapon at S4, re-rolling to wound (gotta love that banner)
no infantry block can afford to wait back, and commits to combat
pronto. it also allows the unit to deal with pesky skirmishers (think
Wardancers here...). In most games I use it either once or twice all
game, but that's enough to earn it's points back in damage, and
more importantly to force my opponent's hand tactically.

Njoy
-und_ed

I absolutely second your comment on the Palanquin. The first time I looked at it, it stood out as - (to quote you) a "No brainer" !

That one thing is what makes the Nurgle block so utterly hard to take down with any close-combat attacking unit.

The Vapours and the 6+3 Poisoned attacks are brutal enough - meaning the Herald can often hack the guts out of an enemy unit before they even get to go - even IF they got the Charge (which they often will given Nurgle's slowness)- - - but then you get the added protection (don't forget the Palanquin adds a rarely-used but good-to-remember 6+ Armor Save to the Herald, for counting as a Cavalry Mount) ....and with my other favorite "re-roll wounds" - Unit Banner on that block.....OUCH...the unit becomes a killing machine.

Staff of Nurgle is something I always try to work in. Even against tough units d6 S5 hits is worth dispelling, and pulling a dispel die or two is frequently worth it if you can spare 50pts.

Noxious Vapors won't have any effect on charging models, "strike last" is a defined term, it's the rule that great weapons have. Vapors helps out an initiative 2 Herald in subsequent turns, but it doesn't do anything on the first turn of combat. I'm not that impressed with the ability as Nurgle's big thing is that you can take a hit and come back swinging, I don't really care when my herald gets to go, most things are going to bounce right off him even if they go first.

Nurgle's Rot I'm also unmoved by. Given that the results don't count for combat resolution I just don't care if one or two opponent's die every round or two.

Ditto Pestilent Mucus. The Herald has two wounds, and half of even T3 opponents are going to pass the Toughness test. So we're talking about spending 25pts to do *1* wound in the "best" case scenario, and that "best case" is your herald getting killed. Weee!

Stream of Bile: Yes please! Ranged attacks! Increasing threat range on a M4 unit! Re-rolls off the banner of Seeping Decay! Great gift.

Soul Hunger: Hmmm, 25pts to have my Herald re-roll wounds or Seeping Decay which is 25pts to have my Herald and his unit re-roll. I'll pass thanks.

Slime Trail: No one is doing a vast number of wounds to Nurgle Demons while the Herald is alive, so CR is king. +1 combat resolution when you're flanked and need it most or +2 if you're rear charged. 10pts makes it a no brainer.

Good points on all areas....except....are you sure about Noxious Vapours ?

I mean - have they defined it as such any time recently in a FAQ or such ?


When the book came out - we all assumed that "strike last" meant even when charging...ie...normally you would strike first...but now you strike last....

Cause you could argue that "strikes first" is a "defined term" but when it's used, they aren't always referring to a charging unit ?

GW is sloppy with language all the time, so any interpretation will need to have some level of uncertainty built in, but yeah, I'm as sure about Noxious Vapors as I feel like I need to be to insist on it in tournament play.

Noxious Vapors says that opponents in base contact "strike last". What does "strike last" mean? The BRB tells us what it means, it means "strike last during combat where they would otherwise strike in initiative order" and goes on to say "Note that troops that charge will still strike first in the initial turn of close combat, as charging troops always strike first rather than in initiative order".

Saying that the Nurgle Herald will strike before people who charged him requires concluding that when GW says troops "strike last" in the Daemon Book it doesn't mean the same thing that "strike last" means in every other book. I just don't see any reason to do that. "Strike last" means something it gets a definition in the BRB, unfortunately it doesn't really mean "strike last" it means "strike as though you were lower initiative", which isn't quite the same thing.

You're wrong about Noxious Vapours. It even affects ASF troops (it's quite explicit in the description), and certainly affects chargers. The extra bit you'e quoting is the specific entry for Great Weapons, and not a definition of "strikes last".

It's the same with the wood-elf item and the Vampire Nightshroud, if you want to go FAQ-Hunting.

-und_ed

"Strike last" is a general rule that great weapons happen to have, I am not quoting the entry for Great Weapons.

Please see page 54 of the rules. You'll find the rules under the all caps bold heading "STRIKES LAST". The rule is very clear.

The Vampire and Wood Elf items are very different. The Vampire item says opponents lose all "charging bonuses" and the Wood Elf one says "strike last even if they charged". They affect chargers because they say so. The Nurgle gift doesn't.

No, "Strike Last" is a "Special Weapon Rule", and as such is listed under the "Special Weapon Rules" in the BRB...on page 54.

And we really shouldnt compare any army specific Item to any other army specific Item/Gift/Icon as they are fairly different 'things' altogether.

Now, as und_ed and Fulgrim's-Chosen have already said, the rules for Noxious Vapors are very straight forward. But if you need it broke down....The Rule:

Note that the rule does not say that the enemy "gains the Always Strike Last rule" but rather the enemy simply "always strikes last".

So, for example:
Nurgle Herald with Noxious Vapors is successfully charged by -{ANYTHING}-. Now -{ANYTHING}- has gained the Always Strike First rule because they successfully charged, however they then loose Always Strike First and instead "always strike last" because of Noxious Vapors.

Its really quite that simple, and if you still disagree then you should take this debate to the Rules Section of the forum for further examples.


PS. If Im only playing with one HoN then he gets Vapors and Bile on a Palanquin, in a unit with the Seeping Banner....why would you do anything else? Oh, and hes usually the BSB.

Thanks for the support Und_Ed and MTF8

I thought I was right in my remembering of the rule and using it in so many games - before the last year and half in which I've not played much of WHFB at all.

Thanks for providing those quotes too, as that was the exact logic we all used when the book first came out, and in our many early games, on how to play Noxious Vapors. That's the way it's played at tourneys locally too - so I thought I was on solid footing with my recollection, but couldn't quite be certain.

Noxious Vapors was always my favorite "must take" gift for the Herald on Palanquin (my favorite looking/to model/and in-game effectiveness) Herald of all !

The set-up you lay out, MTF8 is very similiar to the way I'd play mine - except I tended to field my "Nurgle Double" (see the Nurgle forum for my original thread on this concept, and several other threads on it that have come up since I first wrote about it) - - - with TWIN Heralds on Palanquins, each with Noxious Vapors, Stream of Bile, Level-1 Wizard - and the game-winning-often-if-it-works-at-certain-times MIASMA of PESTILENCE !!!



If you set up the Nurgle Double properly, you ended up with enemies charging the front of the unit, having to face TWO Heralds plus their Palanquins' worth of attacks BEFORE they got to do anything...that's 9-attacks ...all Poisoned....with re-rolls to Wound...since the unit will obviously have the Seeping Decay Banner in it...then in the Magic Phase (well, before we even get to the CC-phase) - you have cast Miasma - which is almost a "MUST-DISPEL" for any enemy - forcing them to waste dice on that....because if it goes off and all foes touching the Daemon are T-1, WS-1, S-1, I-1....then even the Palanquin-Nurglings will hit on 2+ and Wound on 2+ ! - even if they DON'T roll Poison ! Brutal !


I never lost the Nurgle Double unit...ever...when I ran it. Single-Herald units could be beaten (rarely) due to massive concentrated enemy attacks from all sides....but the Double was virtually invincible.

Always Strike First is very different from striking first because you charged. A charging Silver Helm has Always Strike First, a charging Empire Knight does not. You're failing to make even the most basic distinctions in the initiative rules.

"Strike last" has a specific meaning, it is very clear that it is modified by charging. There is only so much I can say once I've sited the rulebook and you refuse to accept it.

Ok, let me repeat what I already stated before:
"Strike Last" is a "Special Weapon Rule", and as such is listed under the "Special Weapon Rules" in the BRB...on page 54.

So, tell me where else this "Strike Last" rule you keep quoting exists in the rulebook, or acknowledge the fact that its a "Special Weapon Rule", listed under the "Special Weapon Rules", which is listed under the "WEAPONS" section in the BRB.

See, Im not refusing to accept the rules in the BRB....just your incorrect interpretation on what the rule is defined as and how it applies.

Now, I suppose I didnt word my earlier example properly enough for you, so riddle me this:
How exactly can an enemy model under the effect of Noxious Vapors strike first when it must strike last due to the effect of Noxious Vapors?