Need advice for playing against daemons, Karios list

Hey all
I know what I'm asking is betrayal of your Daemonic brethren but I'm sure creatures of pure evil wouldn't mind =].
Anyway I've just started playing Fantasy and I played my first game recently against a Tzeentch list. Short story cut even shorter; I got massacred.
The guy who I played ran a magic heavy list which consisted of;
Karios
Skull Taker mounted on a Juggernaut
Two Heralds [both put in separate units of Horrors]
Four units of 10 Horrors
Two units of 6 Flamers
One unit of Screamers

My list was as follows;
Sumpreme Sorceress
level 4
Dispell scroll
Pearl of infinite bleakness
Sorceress
Level 2
Tomb of Furion
Assassin
Additional hand weapon
Rune of Khaine
Black Lotus
Rending Star
Assassin
Additional hand weapon
Rune of Khaine
Rending Star
5 Dark riders
Repeat crossbows
Musician
10 Repeater crossbowmen
Shields
10 Repeater crossbowmen
Shields
5 Harpies
5 Harpies
5 Cold one knights
Musician
7 Shades
Great weapons
7 Shades
Great weapons
Hydra
Reaper bolt thrower
Reaper bolt thrower

My magic did nothing at all in the 2-3 turns it took for him to take me apart. I know I did have a little bit of bad luck with some dice roles [i.e. miscasting 3 times in 1 turn with my 8 power dice] but even with less than average dice roles I was hoping to do a little better than I did.

The main problem I had was with his Flamers followed by the amount of power/dispel dice and vast selection of spells my opponent had to choose from. I didn't realise how potent the Flamers were until the first turn when a unit of 10 crossbowmen were reduced to a unit of 1 from a single unit of Flamers.

Also the magic caused a big problem for me as I simply couldn't dispel enough of it, bears anger on the Skull taker made short work of both assassins [thinking next time I'll remove Rending Star to get the killing blow ability]. I also had big problems with the spell Karios kept casting to put a protective bubble 12inch around him which protected most of his army from missile fire. I also had a bit of trouble with the pit of shades [I think it's called that] as it killed my Hydra before it could see combat [damn initiative 2].

I know I shouldn't be expecting a win from my first game but I was hoping to kill a unit or two. I think in total I did 2 wounds on Karios [bolt throwers], 2 on the Skull Taker, killed 4 Horrors, 2 Screamers and 4 Flamers.

Since the game I have found out that Karios is only toughness 5 opposed to the toughness 6 that a Lord of Change has.

I weren't planning on giving you all my life story but I have so I hope I didn't bore you all too much.
I'd appreciate it if you could give me some advice on my list and how best to deal with this kind of army. I was considering dropping the Hydra [due to all the flame attacks] and taking another 2 bolt throwers. To attempt to take out Karios before he can cause too much damage.
Many Thanks
Ryan

Two wounds on Skulltaker should have killed him.

I wish I'd of known that sooner =]. The Skulltaker was responsible for killing 2 Assassins, 4 Shades and 3 Cold One Knights, all when he has 2 wounds on him. I didn't think to question how many wounds the Skulltaker had, I just thought it was some kind of insanely powerful character.

Anyway I've come up with a new list which I think might stand more of a chance. I've scrapped my magic phase and a few other things which has left me with this list. I'd appreciate it if you could tell me how you think this will hold up to the Karios list.

Dread Lord
Great Weapon
Armour of Darkness
Null Talisman
Null Talisman
Null Talisman
216 points

Sorceress
2 Dispel Scroll
150 points

Assassin
Additional hand weapon
Touch of Death
Rune of Khaine
Black Lotus
171 points

Assassin
Additional hand weapon
Touch of Death
Rune of Khaine
Black Lotus
171 points

5 Harpies
55 points

5 Harpies
55 points

5 Harpies
55 points

5 Harpies
55 points

10 Repeater Crossbowmen
Sheilds
110 points

10 Repeater Crossbowmen
Sheilds
110 points

5 Dark Riders
Repeater Crossbows
Musician
117 points

7 Shades
Great Weapons
126 points

13 Black Guard
Tower Master
Ring of Hotek
208 points

4 Reaper Bolt Throwers
400 points

Total 1999 points

So the plan is quite simple really. Shades go in a forest closet to a unit of flamers ready to charge on my turn 1-2 with both assassins, I'm hoping assassins alone should deal with a unit of flamers [10-14 killing blow, reroll 1s to wound attacks].

My Lord goes with the BG to give me a unit that is very magic resistant, and my harpies surround my BG to give me 1-2 turns of protection from the Flamer's attacks.

I've also dropped the Hydra due to the amount of flaming attacks. I've taken more Reaper Bolt Throwers to try and pick off Karios over 2 or 3 turns.

The only thing I'm unsure of is whether I should drop my two assassins for Shadowblade and have him infiltrate a unit of Flamers on turn 1.

I'd suggest a read through here:

http://z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/inde...?showtopic=5988

Your opponent is taking essentially the most broken daemon army possible and you are just starting playing - that's very very much an uphill battle. I think your first list is a better choice as just maxing out defense isn't going to beat that DoC list IMO - (they'll shoot what they can and ignore the black gaurd if they are smart)


Podhammer and Bad Dice also had nice podcasts on anti daemon tactics

Against the Tzeentch list the Harpies are kind of useless unless you are planning on using them to screen your other troops. It my be worth sacrificing those and pumping up the unit of Shades. You could feasibly go with a "Shadestar" build and have one uber unit to rampage through his weak horrors.

You can pack that one unit with Assassins the null talismans, ideally the Ring of Hotek too and once you hit a unit with it, well, he might not want to roll out the cheese next time.

It sounds like RyanUNDEAD's opponent is also a cheater - in addition to (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on this one) "forgetting" that Skulltaker has only 2-Wounds total, not 3. . .

Why do I say this ? Because RyanUNDEAD mentions in his write-up that "Bear's Anger on the Skulltaker made short work of both Assassins...."


Just one problem ! He also points out that Skulltaker was mounted on the best-option "Juggernaut" ....which means....he can't HAVE Bear's Anger cast on him, casue he's a mounted-model at that point !

Cheat Alert ! Wooo-woooo !


Before he plays again with that person, I'd make darn sure they are playing fairly as the Daemons "naturally" are a powerful list - and like the G-Man said, the opponent is taking one of the most broken Daemon lists you could possibly make.. Probably a 9.5 out of 10 on the Cheese-Scale.

Thanks for that bud. I'll keep that in mind next time I play against, it's not nice getting hit with so many str 8 attacks.
I've had a read up on Daemons and there are a few rules I've picked up on which were used slightly incorrectly. I also know now that Karios can't cast spells from both Lore of Beasts and Lore of Light in the same magic phase. I might play him again either tomorrow or next week, depends who's there.

Your opponent is either a beginner as well or he's an asshole. Seriously, who would play a list like that against a beginner?

Tell him to play by the rules and not use special characters, you don't, he shouldn't. Special Characters (especially kairos and skulltaker) are in general very powerful and should not be used unless both players have agreed on it beforehand (like in the old days).

Less so, Skulltaker, - MUCH more so Kairos.

Skulltaker, if he were your General, in an army with - say - 2 other Heralds TOTAL....would not be that overpowered - especially if you made it Mono-Khorne or Khorne-Nurgle mix.


Kairos is so powerful though - and really - so special Fluff-Wise, as the Oracle of Tzeentch, that he really shouldn't be taking the field for anything less than 5000-point super-battles (at least Fluff-Wise).


Just save him for Re-enactments of The Battle of Sky's Fall


Kairos and 5000 Tzeentch Daemons descend from a chaos-rift in the heavens, and besiege the city of Montfort.

Kairos- 625 pts (IIRC)

5000 Tzeentch Daemons...even if we assume they were ALL the weakest types (Horrors) would be a further 60,000 points.


Total "battle size" = 60,625-Points.


How many Rares do I get now ?

LOL, you are prone to ramble but that was awsome!

Thanks. I did a lot of papers in university - being an English/Writing major - so typing comes easy for me - and I like to provide details or examples when doing rulesy or tactical talk on the forum, so that tends to pad some of my postings. Lastly, as a Herald, we're expected to yap a lot, and spread the glory of the Dark Powers with our every word, no matter how confusing, convoluted, or downright mystifying it might be !