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Alternate 8th Edition DoC army book
, The definitive Daemon re-write.
The Eternal Bloodletter
Member No.: 2,658
Joined: 24-January 11
PDF-document (work-progress 2.0 version) is found here: PDF Download (11th July 2012)* A summary of this Project also exists further down in this thread-post, invariably a bit more 'up to date' compared to the PDF although not as nicely presented!
* The 1.0 version of this re-write was printed in full-color high quality format (4 copies made) - and one of these copies were sent to Jervis Johnson at GW Design on June 8th 2012 - together with extensive 'Designer's Notes' and a small 'Errata'.A New Dawn!So Matthew Ward wrote us another Daemons of Chaos Army Book for 8th Edition and - just as expected - it was not a carbon copy of the Project that we submitted to Games Workshop a few months earlier. There are some details in the official book where our own re-write happens to coincide (for example: Inspiring Presence being restricted on a Mark-By-Mark basis) but generally speaking (and since the official book did not follow the design-philosophy hitherto standardized in 8th Edition) the official book is very different.
We have taken the decision to complete a 2.0 version of this re-write that is essentially compatible with the model-releases that came with the official book - while the integrity of our own original mission statement will remain intact (i.e. our re-write is an update of the previous 7th Edition Army Book, not a revision of the newly released 8th Edition rendition of Daemons).
While the 1.0 version had the ultimate aim of submitting suggestions and ideas to Games Workshop, the 2.0 version is purely a prestige Project done on our own behalf (and indeed, any Daemon-players blessed with a gaming-environment that allows 'house-rules' like these to be 'playtested').
This thread used to exist in the Dread Legions Main Fantasy Sub-Forum on this board, however upon the release of the official 8th Edition Army Book the decision was taken by moderators to pin this thread so as to avoid it getting mixed with the plethora of threads dealing with the official book.
All input from any and all interested parties are still welcome in this thread! This is a 'design-by-committee' Project - as such with inherent strengths and weaknesses - and the whole idea have Always been that the final result will be an Army Book that represents as many people's ideas of what Daemons should be like as possible!
1. Daemons vs Empire 4000pts
2. Daemons vs WoC 2400pts
3. Daemons vs Vampire Counts 2500pts
4. Daemons vs OnG 8000pts
5. Daemons vs DE 10000pts
(DaemonReign)Current Topics of Discussion on last page:Matt Ward's new [official] Army Book has been released and it will certainly have some impact on the final version of this Project. This is what we're gearing up to dive into right now. From this point: The actual re-write!As our revision of this re-write progresses we've begun color-coding new 'edits', this is mainly to make TheRealVeon's work easier but can also be of value to new-comers as this color-coding shows how Games Workshop's releases have influenced us (and vice versa!).
Everything written in 'White/standard' text below is the 'original 1.0 draft'.
Everything written in red text are edits influenced by the White Dwarf patch for Daemons in August 2012. Orange colored text are edits influenced by the Warriors of Chaos Army Book being release in early 2013, and text colored green are the *present* edits made in response to the official Daemons of Chaos Army Book released for Fantasy in February/March 2013.
DAEMONS OF CHAOSIMPORTANT NOTICE: Below is the work-in-progress draft of this Project where we gather all edits that later on goes into TheRealVeon's PDF document - thus details below may vary more or less from the PDF at any given Point in time. It is also important to remember, now that the 8th Edition Army Book has been released, that this Project is rooted in the previous 7th Ed Army Book in terms of stats for units - and only 'changes' to those profiles are listed belowArmy-wide rules Summary:Daemonic Instability as per 7th Edition Army Book
(5+ Army Wide Wardsave), Magical Attacks (Ranged/Combat+Stomp)
'Inspiring Presence' - The Daemon in question must be of the same Mark as the General to benefit from Inspiring Presence
. Furthermore; Unmarked Daemons benefit universially
from Inspiring Presence
and if a Daemon Prince without Mark
is elected General
it confers its Inspiring Presence
on all Daemons regardless of their Mark.In addition to being 'Daemonic', the vast majority of Daemons also belong to one of four main Chaos Gods:
"Daemon of Khorne" = Hatred (Daemons of Slaanesh), Magic Resistance (1),
"Daemon of Nurgle" = Hatred (Daemons of Tzeentch), Poisoned Attacks.
"Daemon of Slaanesh" = Hatred (Daemons of Khorne), Armour Piercing*.
"Daemon of Tzeentch" = Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle), Flaming Attacks**.
* Stomps/Thunder Stomps and Impact Hits made by Daemons of Slaanesh are treated as Armour Piercing (1) unless otherwise noted.
** Stomps/Thunder Stomps and Impact Hits made by Daemons of Tzeentch are treated as Flaming.
Command options are 10pts each, unless otherwise noted.~~~~~~~~CORE: Bloodletters 14pts/model
6+ 'Scaly Skin' Armour Save innately.
1. Blessing of the Bloodgod
+2pts/per model: Heavy Armour (4+ AS)Daemonettes 11 pts/model
+1pts/ per model: Every '6' rolled To Hit doubles the Hit.
2. Supernatural Sprint
+2pts/ per model: Unit and joined characters are subject to the Swiftstride Special Rule
1. Cloud of flies
+2pts per model: Opponent gets -1 to hit with melee attacks.
2. Nurgle's Rot +2 points/model: Every model in base contact with the unit at the start of each round of Close combat takes a Strength 1 hit, allowing no armour saves. *As per Gift*Horrors 12 pts/modelStats/Special Rules as per 7th Ed Army Book.Options:
1. Crackling Explosions
, 1 point/model = When a Horror is slain in close combat it deals an automatic Flaming Hit on which-ever model killed it, using its own Strength value at the time of its demise. Note that casualties caused by Instability does not cause such Hits.
, 1 pts/model = In each friendly Magic Phase this unit of Horrors may Channel Power Dice per 'Size-Level' (i.e. 1-4) instead of just once. Note that the Windcatchers upgrade has no effect for purpose of Channeling Dispel Dice. Pink Horror Magic Chart:Level 1
- Flickering Fire Level 2
- Gift of Chaos Level 3
- Bolt of Change Level 4
- Tzeentch's FirestormPlagueToads of Nurgle
*See: Forgeworld Experimental Rules!*
(50x50mm base)M6 WS3 BS0 S4 T4 W2 I1 A2 LD5
Unit Size: 3+
Unit Type: Monstrous Beast
Special Rules: Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Marsh/Swamp Strider- No Command.
1. Cloud of flies
+5pts/model: Opponent gets -1 to hit with melee attacks.
2. Corpulent Bulk
+3pts/model = Regen 4+. ~~~~~~~~SPECIAL:Furies 11pts/modelMay take one of the following upgrades:
Mark of Khorne, *free* = Hatred (Daemons of Slaanesh), Magic Resistance (1),
Mark of Nurgle, 2pts = Hatred (Daemons of Tzeentch), Poisoned Attacks.
Mark of Slaanesh, 1pt = Hatred (Daemons of Khorne), Armour Piercing.
Mark of Tzeentch, *free* = Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle), Flaming Attacks*.Flesh hounds 35pts/model
Add Devastating Charge
(+1 attack on Charge) into base-cost.Optional Upgrade:
1. Ambushers +5pts/model: Ambushers Special Rule.Screamers 30 pts/model
Wounds and Attacks increased to 2.UnitSize:2+
Slashing Attacks: In the controlling player's Remaining Moves Sub-Phase any unit of Screamers may perform Slashing Attacks against a single enemy unit. Any enemy-unit touched by a unit of Screamers flying over them suffer a number of S5 Flaming Hits equal to the number of Screamers in the unit, distributed as a Shooting Attack. An enemy-unit occupying a building cannot be targetted by Slashing Attacks, however, such a unit inside a forest can be targetted although the Screamers must then take a Dangerous Terrain test. No optional upgrades.Nurglings Unit Size: 2-12Stats unchanged from 7th Ed Army Book.- No optional upgrades.Seekers 20pts/model
+1pts/ per model: Every '6' rolled To Hit in CC doubles the Hit.
2. Rending Claws
+2pts/ per model: Cancels armour save when rolling 6 ToWound.Pox Riders of Nurgle
- 38pts/model"The Forgeworld models..."
Plaguetoad also mount-option for HoN.
Combined profile: M6 WS3 BS0 S4 T4 W2 I1 A4 LD7Unit Size:
3+Unit Type: Monstrous Cavalry
(6+ armour save)Special Rules:
Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Marsh/Swamp Strider
1. Cloud of flies
+6pts/model: Opponent gets -1 to hit with melee attacks.
2. Nurgle's Rot +6pts/model: Every model in base contact with the unit at the start of any round of Close combat takes a Strength 1 hit, allowing no armour saves. *As per Gift*Fiends 55pts/modelUnit Size:
, +4 points/model = If in base contact with the enemy the Fiend may roll one of the attacks on its profile separately: This attack is assumed to have Strength 5 as well as the Armour Piercing & Poison Special Rules.
, +3pts/model = Strider Special Rule.BloodCrushers 70 points/model.*Bloodreaper upgrade costs 15pts instead of the usual 10pts.
Juggernaut has 3 wounds. Juggernaut has 3 Attacks, 'Brass Behemoth Rule' confers a +2 to Armour Save - coupled with the innate Scaly Skin (6+) Armour Save of the Bloodletter the 'vanilla' save is still 4+ however.
Unit Size: 3+*Note that Juggernauts get +1 wound but no longer have KB!*
+10pts/model: Heavy Armour (2+ Armour Save)
2. Blessing of the Bloodgod
+3pts/per model: MR2.BloodChariot of Khorne 140 points.Stats as per 7th Ed Army Book.
+ 'Scythed' Special Rule.
2 Bloodletters as Crew.Crew Options
1. Blessing of the Bloodgod
2. Fury of Khorne
+15pts/model: Devastating Charge Special Rule.Chariot Option'Chosen'
, +45 points/model, +1 Jugger (+1 Wound, +2 S5 A).Also option for Herald Mount Type, and note that when taken as a Character Mount the character replace both Bloodletters.Burning Chariot
- 100 points/modelStats as per 7th Ed Army Book
Add Flaming Attacks for All the Chariot ('Daemon of Tzeentch').
Add 'Featherweight Craft'
Special Rule - chariot may march
Chariot channels PD/DD once per magic phase, when mounted by Horrors.Crew Options (Only available to Horrors, not Flamer-chariot upgrade!)
1. Iridescant Corona
, +25pts = Same as the Gift.
2. Aura of Tzeentch
+25pts = Same as the Gift.Chariot Options
1. May take up to 2 additional Screamers for +15pts each. Also option for Character Mount Chariot Type.
2. May replace both Horror crew with 2 Flamers for +50pts.Note: When taken as a Character Mount the burning chariot has Flaming Attacks, Featherweight Craft Special Rule - and the Herald of Tzeentch replace both Crew.Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh
* As per White Dwarf of August 2012.Cost dropped to 105pts.
1. Rending Claws +10pts = 'as per Gift'
2. Aura of Slaanesh +25pts = 'as per Gift'Flamers 35pts/model
[Replace 'Flames of Tzeentch' with 'Warpflame']
Warpflame: Rng: 12", Str: 4, Special: Flaming Attacks, Multiple Shots (D6), Quick to Fire
Note: Flamers do not suffer the To Hit penalty for multiple shots when firing their Warpflame.
1. Immolators, +5 points/model = Ignores all penalties ToHit when performing Stand & Shoot.
2. Changebringers, +20 points/model, gets Disc of Tzeentch and are Cav.Hellflayer of Slaanesh
* As per White Dwarf of August 2012.Base-cost increased to 140pts.
Soulscent: *Changed: Effecting not merely the Allures but the entire Crew of the model.*
Whirling Blades: When the Hellflayer is engaged in combat, its spiked axis continues to spin, slicing into the enemy ranks and lopping off limbs and heads. Enemies fighting the Hellflayer and its crew therefore have to be careful to avoid this spinning axis, lest they become maimed by an ill-timed attack. To represent this, any enemy model that rolls a 1 when rolling to hit the Hellflayer takes a Strength 4 hit.
1. Rending Claws +10pts = 'as per Gift'
2. Soul Hunger +25pts = 'as per Gift' (Crew only)Beasts of nurgle 90pts/modelCloud of Flies
: -1 ToHit penalty in Close-Combat).Attention Seeker(s): May issue/accept Challanges as if a unit-champion.
+10 per model: Unit gains Stupid and Stubborn Special Rules
2. Rotten to the core
+10pts per model: Unit gains +3 regeneration~~~~~~~~RAREBehemoth of Khorne - 230 points
(150x100mm base)The Behemoth is a Juggernaut that has been swelled by Khorne’s rage and anger to several times its normal size..Behemoth: M7 WS5 BS0 S6 T6 W5 I2 A4 Ld7Skullshrine: M6 WS4 BS0 S6 T6 W5 I1 A3 Ld7TROOP TYPE:
MonsterSPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Magic Resistance (1), 4+ Armour save, Large Target, Terror, Onslaught (Behemoth only).Onslaught: D3+1 Impact hits with Killing Blow on any turn the model charges.Upgrades:Fury of Khorne
: Behemoth gains Devastating Charge special rule.
– 15ptsBloodlust of Khorne
: Behemoth gains Frenzy special rule.
– 15ptsIf taken as a Lone Monster, may be upgraded to carry the Skullshrine of Khorne.
The Skullshrine is very cumbersome requiring the Behemoth to be bound in chains; as a consequence the profile of the Behemoth changes to the Skullshrine profile
above and the model loses the Onslaught
special rule.Skullshrine of Khorne
A Behemoth carrying the Skullshrine gains the following benefits.Collar of Khorne:
Magic Resistance is increased to (3).Daemon chains:
All Wizards in base contact with the Behemoth at the start of the magic phase take a wound on a D6 roll of 5+ with no armour saves allowed.Well of Khorne’s Rage: May store any number of unused power dice at the end of your magic phase. At the start of your opponent’s next magic phase roll a D6 and add the number of power dice currently stored in the well. If the total is 7 or less, immediately add all the dice to your dispel pool as additional dispel dice (although your dispel pool may not exceed 12 dice as normal). If the total is 8 or more, all dice stored in the well are lost as Khorne’s rage is directed elsewhere at present.Great Icon of Khorne:
All Khorne characters within 12” of the Great Icon may channel dispel dice as if they were Wizards. All Wizards within 12” (friend or foe!) must re-roll successfull channels of Power Dice.* Note that Behemoth's can be taken as Lone Monsters from the Rare Section, or as Monster Mounts.The Eye of Tzeentch 2.0
(50x100mm base, 'short end to the sides')Remote eyes for the ‘Wizard of Wizards himself..M4, WS3, BS5, S5, T5, W5, I3, A(D6+1) Ld7TROOP TYPE:
Monster.MAGIC: The Eye of Tzeentch is a Level 1 Wizard. It always knows the spell Glean Magic from the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch, and may not exchange it for any other.SPECIAL RULES:
Daemonic, Flaming Attacks, Hover, Conduit of Magic, Skin of Star Iron, Whirling Blades, Bolt of Tzeentch, Terror.Conduit of Magic
: The Eye can be used as a conduit for casting spells by any of your Wizards within 12". Measure range and line of sight from the Eye as if it were the caster. If the Wizard casts the spell with Irresistable Force, they suffer the miscast effect as normal and the Eye takes an automatic wound with no saves of any kind allowed, and may not be used as a conduit for the rest of the Magic phase.Skin of Star Iron
: The Eye has an armour save of 3+.Whirling Blades:
When the Eye engages the enemy in combat, its star-armour angles towards the enemy and starts spinning, slicing into the enemy ranks and lopping off limbs and heads. Enemies fighting the Eye therefore have to be careful to avoid the spinning blades, lest they become maimed by an ill-timed attack. To represent this, any enemy model that rolls a 1 when rolling to hit the Eye takes a Strength 5 hit.Bolt of Tzeentch:
This is a Strength 8 Multiple Wounds (D3) ranged attack with a range of 24". If the Eye also has the Flames of Tzeentch
it must choose each phase which of its two ranged weapons to use.DAEMONIC GIFT OPTIONS:
Aura of Tzeentch, Flames of Tzeentch.Aura of Tzeentch:
*as per Gift* (+25pts) Flames of Tzeentch.
*as per Gift (+25pts)Exalted Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh
* As per White Dwarf of August 2012.Cost reduced to 200pts. (1 Daemonette removed from profile!)
1. Rending Claws +10pts = 'as per Gift'
2. Aura of Slaanesh +25pts = 'as per Gift'
3. Luring Fumes +30pts = 'as per Gift'SoulGrinder
* As per White Dwarf of August 2012.- 'Warp Gaze' Upgrade cost reduced to 40pts.
Notation: Clarification that all optional shooting attacks are measured from the 'mouth' of the model, while the 'Harvest Cannon' is measured from the right arm of the model (where the cannon is modelled).In addition to other options, may take one of the following:
Mark of Khorne, *cost?* = Hatred (Daemons of Slaanesh), Magic Resistance (1), *something*
Mark of Nurgle, *cost?* = Hatred (Daemons of Tzeentch), Poisoned Attacks, *something*
Mark of Slaanesh, *cost?* = Hatred (Daemons of Khorne), Armour Piercing, *something*.
Mark of Tzeentch, *cost?* = Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle), Flaming Attacks, *something*Phantasm of Slaanesh 180pts
(50x100mm base) M8, WS5, BS0, S5, T5, W4, I5, A5, Ld7Unit type: MonsterSpecial rules
: Armour piercing, Swiftstride, Terror, Sopoforic Musk, Divine Perfumes, Extatic Caress.Divine Perfumes
Breathe Weapon S2, -3 save mod, any unit that takes a wound from the attack is at -D3 WS & BS and I until the end of the next player turn. Roll once for all stats. Extatic Caress
= In each round of combat the Phantasm may forego its normal attacks (it may still Thunder Stomp and use its Divine Perfumes) and instead make a single attack against one enemy model in base contact. If this attack hits the Phantasm coils itself around the enemy model. Both the Phantasm and its victim roll a D6 and add their Strength. If the enemy model scores highest it breaks free immediately and may attack as normal that combat phase (providing it hasn't done so already). If the scores are equal or the Phantasm scores highest the enemy model takes a number of hits equal to the difference in scores (if any), wounding automatically with no armour saves allowed. In addition the enemy model may not attack this round of combat if it hasn't done so already. The victim is assumed to break free at the end of the phase before calculating Combat Resolution.Options:
- +10pts Gains strider rule
- +15pts May re-roll # of Stomps.Plague Drones of Nurgle 55pts
Skullcannon of Khorne 190pts/model
Same as in the 8th Edition Army Book, save for the 'Daemon of Khorne' Special Rule having different properties (i.e. Bloodletters/Juggernauts are still S5 etcetera)~~~~~~~~HEROESHoK
- Ballistic Skill increased to 3.
May ride Juggernaut (+50pts), Blood Chariot (+120pts), Behemoth (+240pts) and Skullthrone (+150pts).New Available Gifts: Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Ruinous Blade, Magic Hater, Harbringer of Skulls, Fury of Khorne, Aura of Khorne, Bloodlust of Khorne, Death Strike, Lash of Khorne, Axe of Khorne.HoT
May ride Disc of Tzeentch for +20pts or Burning Chariot for +80ptsNew Available Gifts: Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Soul Hunger, Loremaster, Arcane Knowledge, Warp Strength, Attuned to Oblivion, Elemental Form, Aura of Tzeentch, Obliteration.HoS
Toughness increased to 4.
Level 1 Wizard +50pts
Level 2 Wizard +85pts
(In addition to Seeker Steed..) May be mounted on a Seeker Chariot, for +95pts and Exalted Seeker Chariot for +180pts.
May be mounted on Serpent of Slaanesh, for +50ptsNew Available Gifts: Chaos Forging, Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Luring Fumes, Aura of Slaanesh, Masochistic Vigour, Rending Claws, Soul Hunger.HoN
Initiative increased to 3.
Level 1 Wizard +50pts
Level 2 Wizard +85pts
In addition to Palanquin (+50), may be mounted on a Plague Toad (+24) and Plague Drone (+50)
.New Available Gifts: Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Ruinous Blade, Blade of Entropy, Aura of Nurgle, Cloud of Flies, Stream of Corruption, Trappings of Nurgle.~~~~~~~~~~LORDSDaemon Prince 265ptsAmendments to 7th Ed Profile:
Wounds increased to 5.
Leadership increased to 9.
Ballistic Skill increased to 4!
Gift Allowance: 100 points.Options:+25pts
= Winged Majesty
= Mark of Khorne:
Hatred & MR1 + Khorne Gifts+25pts
= Mark of Tzeentch:
4+ Ward & Flaming Attacks + Tzeentch Gifts+35pts
= Mark of Slaanesh:
ASF & AP-attacks + Slaanesh Gifts+30pts
= Mark of Nurgle:
4+ Regen & Poison Attacks + Nurgle GiftsAdditional 'unmarked' Gifts
: - Chaos Forging, Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Ruinous Blade.
Note that the Gift 'Winged Horror' is no longer available! In addition a DP with a Mark of one of the Chaos Gods can choose to spend any amount of his allowance on Gifts available to Daemons of that God. They may not take any individual gifts worth more than 50pts however, as these are reserved for the God's most favoured servants.
- If not taking Mark of Khorne:lvl1
- 50pts; lvl2
- 85pts; lvl3
- 120pts; lvl4
(Unchanged access to BrB Lores + Daemon Lores if Marked)+50pts
Prince of Nurgle may be mounted on Palanquin of Nurgle
and may in this case not make use of the 'Winged Majesty' Upgrade.THE GREATER DAEMONSBloodthirster
- - - - Increase to 6 Wounds.
- - - - Increase Ballistic Skill to 4.
- - - - Decrease to Initiative 8.
- - - - Increase Cost to 470 points
- - - - New Available Gifts: Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Ruinous Blade, Magic Hater, Harbringer of Skulls, Fury of Khorne, Bloodlust of Khorne, Death Strike, Lash of Khorne, Aura of Khorne, Soul Hunger.Lord of Change
- - - - 6 wounds.
- - - - Ballistic Skill 6.
- - - - Initiative 9.
- - - - Cost 440 points.
- - - - Universal Loremaster
(Special Rule) - The Lord of Change is concidered to have the 'Loremaster Gift', meaning it always knows all Spells the Lore of Tzeentch or (if buying the Gift Master of Sorcery) knows all spells from whatever Lore it may choose to use.
- - - - New Available Gifts: Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Soul Hunger, Warp Strength, Attuned to Oblivion, Elemental Form, Aura of Tzeentch, Scrutinous Gaze, Spell Breaker.GreatUncleanOne
- - - - WeaponSkill 6
- - - - Movement 5
- - - - Palanquin of Nurgle
- - - - Decrease base-cost to 435 points.
- - - - New Available Gifts: Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Ruinous Blade, Blade of Entropy, Aura of Nurgle, Cloud of Flies, Stream of Corruption.Keeper of Secrets
- - - - 6 wounds.
- - - - Movement decreased to 9.
- - - - No 'innate' ASF, but access to Unnatural Swiftness Gift.
- - - - Remains
at base-cost 450 points.
- - - - New Available Gifts: Chaos Forging, Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Luring Fumes, Aura of Slaanesh, Masochistic Vigour, Rending Claws, Unnatural Swiftness.2 NEW SPECIAL CHARACTERS:Be’Lakor, The Dark Master – 615ptsBe’Lakor believed he could become as great as the Chaos Gods themselves. Cursed by Tzeentch to a shadow-existence for his hubris.. In the wakes of Archaon's advance, Be'lakor drove his legions southwards towards the lands of men.Be’Lakor: M6, WS9, BS0, S5, T5, W5, I8, A5, Ld10MAGIC
Be’Lakor is a level 4 Wizard. He always knows 5 spells from the Lore of Shadow or Lore of Death, and can choose to take some of his spells from both lores if he wishes. Decide how many he wants from each magic lore before rolling the dice to see which spells he gets.Special Rules:
Daemonic, Fly, Terror, Eternal Terror, Insurmountable Rage, Night Wards, Shadow-shroud.Eternal Terror:
All enemies suffer a -1Ld penalty when taking Fear and Terror tests because of Be’Lakor. In addition, all enemies suffer a -1 Ld penalty when attempting to rally.Insurmountable Rage:
Roll D6 for each Turn: 1-3 = Frenzy 4-6 = Immortal Fury.Night Wards:
Enemy wizards wishing to target a spell at Be’Lakor must first pass an unmodified leadership test or suffer a Loss of Concentration (although no power dice or magic items are used up in the process).Shadow-shroud:
All shooting at Be’Lakor and friendly units within 6” of him is at -1 to hit.N’Kari, Greater Daemon of Slaanesh – 625ptsOne of Slaanesh’s most favoured servants, N’Kari has entered the mortal realms time and again to reap souls for his lord and master. N’Kari is so horrifyingly beautiful (or beautifully horrifying) that few mortals who witness him and live retain their sanity, and those unlucky enough to do so have their dreams haunted by his disturbing visage and the dread passions it invokes in them. N’Kari has a particular delight in ensnaring the souls of the proud and aloof High Elves, as they have so far to fall when letting go of their usual restraint and giving in to the delights of pure sensation. Of all the High Elves, the one whose soul N’Kari desires the most is their champion, Tyrion. The Prince defeated him in single combat many years ago, and N’Kari knows that if he should claim his prize all of Ulthuan would become demoralised and fall soon after.N’Kari: M9, WS9, BS0, S6, T6, W6, I10, A7, Ld9MAGIC
N’Kari is a level 1 Wizard. He always knows spells from the Daemon Lore of Slaanesh.Daemonic Gifts:
Allure of Slaanesh, Enrapturing Gaze, Luring Fumes, Soul Hunger.Special Rules:
Daemonic, Large Target, Terror, Always Strikes First, Armour Piercing, Revelation of Darkest Desires, Hatred (Elves Only!).Revelation of Darkest Desires:
At the start of their turn, all enemy units (except swarms) with line of sight to N’Kari must take a Leadership test. If failed the unit takes D6 hits at their own basic Strength value, distributed as missile hits. If the unit consists of multiple troops types, use the Strength value of the crew/riders/handlers etc. If a unit suffers 25% casualties because of this they must take a panic test.MAGIC WEAPON: The Unholy Spear
With a haft made from the leg bones of a Bloodthirster defeated in personal combat by N'Kari, this weapon has been the bane of many an enemy champion. Any attack with this weapon that rolls a 6 to wound gains the Multiple Wounds (2) special rule.REVISION OF 'OLD' SPECIAL CHARACTERSGeneral note on: Special Characters for 8th Ed:Unless otherwise noted Special Characters are subject to same amendments as 'normal' Heralds and Lords. As always, only changes to current profiles are noted below:The Masque of Slaanesh
Dances:Dance of Dreaming
- All enemy units within 6" are at -1 LDChason of Caging
- All enemy units within 6" are at -1 MovementPageant of Pain
- All enemy units within range take D3 hits, each causing a wound with no armour saves allowed on a roll of 4+ (roll once per unit).Carousal of Confusion
- All enemy units within 6" are at -1 Initiative.SKARBRAND
- 6 wounds
- Rage Embodied
= Frenzy to self and everyone (friend or foe) within 24", Skarbrand can never lose his Frenzy.
- Collar of Khorne
- Strength 7, Initiative 10.
- Heavy Armour.
- Immortal Fury (instead of Hatred)THE CHANGELING
- 70pts (Counts as a Hero/Herald)Aura of Tzeentch (as per Gift)Special Rules:Scion of Tzeentch
- The Changeling may only join Tzeentch units and Furies. 'Arch Imposter'
- Changeling is secretly placed in any friendly unit of Tzeentch Daemons at the start of the game, and can be revealed at the start of any close-combat sub-phase. If the unit is in combat the Changeling must be placed in base contact with enemy, displacing a model per normal rules. Changeling has ASF in the close-combat phase in which Changeling appears.'Grand Imitator'
- The Changeling may copy WS, S, T, I & A from any/all models in b2b. (Note that it copies - not swaps! - these Stats, but is able to do so from friend or foe as long as they are in b2b!
- No other models in the army may use The Changeling's leadership value and he may not be the army general. EPIDEMIUS
- Scion of Nurgle Special Rule
= Epidemius may only join Nurgle units.
- Revised 'Tally of Pestilence'
:Wounds - Effect0 - 6
: No effect.7 - 13
: All poisoned attacks made by Nurgle Daemons or models with the Mark of Nurgle will now automatically wound on a 5+ rather than a 6.14 - 20
: Spells from the Daemon Lore of Nurgle receive a +1 bonus to cast.21 - 27
: Epidemius' Regeneration is increased by +1.28 - 34
: All Nurgle Daemon characters gain the Nurgle's Rot gift if they didn't have it already.35+
: All attacks by Nurgle Daemons get +1 to wound, up to a maximum of 2+.SKULLTAKER
- Scion of Khorne
Special Rule= May only join Khorne units.
- Collector of Trophies
Special Rule= For each character or champion Skulltaker kills with his Heroic killing blow in a challenge he gains an additional +1 combat resolution for the rest of the game.
- Heroic Killing Blow
Special Rule = Skulltaker has HKB (6+) and HKB (5+) in Challanges.
- Skulls for the Skull Throne!
Special Rule = Skulltaker must always issue a challenge, or accept one if he is able to do so.
- May be mounted on Kuhl'tyran
('Juggernauth' +50pts) or Bloodchariot
- "At the start of the Game, Karanak nominates a target Character (re-rolls toHit/toWound against chosen target!).
- Special Rule
May always "Make Way" in combat as long as it gets him into contact with his nominated target Character.
Special Rule = Karanak counts as being the unit's musician as well as its champion.BLUE SCRIBES
- Eternal Travellers
Special Rule = The Blue Scribes may never join units.
- Revised Scrolls of Sourcery
Special Rule = When Xirat'p wants to cast the spell he rolls up it is treated as a bound spell with a power level equal to half the casting value, rounding up.KU'GATH
WS 6, M4
Magic Level 2.
Mounted on Palanquin of Nurgle (see additions to Palanquin!);
*Ku'gath's nurgling-thrower remains the same.*KAIROS
- All stats remain 'as now' (i.e. disregard changes on LoC entry!)END OF UNIT ENTRIESBELOW: Review Gifts, Icons, Miscallenous and Magic Lores!~~~~~~~~DAEMONIC GIFTS:All 'current' Gifts remain unchanged except for changes *beneath* - all though some Gifts are mentioned here just to clarify that they are not changed.All Characters have identical access to Gifts as in the 7th Ed DoC Book, see their profiles for specific additions/restrictions.UNDIVIDED/SHARED GIFTS
- - - - Chaos Forging
20pts - Wounded Target re-rolls all successfull Wardsaves.
- - - - Spectral Distortion
50pts = -1 to shoot at Daemon and its unit. Warmachines that wish to fire at the Daemon or its unit must roll a 4+ (D6) or may not fire at all this turn.
- - - - Radiance of Dark Glory
20pts = Daemon and unit he is with lose 1 less wound to instability.
- - - - Daemonic Robes
20pts = Unchanged Function
- - - - Etherblade
50pts = No Armour Save.
- - - - Many Armed Monstrosity
40pts - +2 Attacks.
- - - - Unnatural Swiftness
25pts = ASF
- - - - Winged Horror +25pts
= Fly Ability. *Removed*
- - - - Ruinous Blade
40pts = D3 Wound WeaponKHORNE GIFTS
- - - - Obsidian Armour
50pts = *Same as now*
- - - - Axe Of Khorne
25pts = *Same as now*
- - - - Dark Insanity
55pts = Daemon has the Random Attacks
(2D6+2) Special Rule.
- - - - AwesomeStrength
80pts = Model has S10 & uniquely this also effects thunderstomps.
- - - - Magic Hater
20pts = Any spells (friend or foe) cast by wizards within 6" of this model or targeted at units within 6" of this model will suffer a miscast on any casting roll that includes a double 1.
- - - - Harbinger of Skulls
= HKB, 50pts.
- - - - Fury of Khorne
15pts = Daemon has Devastating Charge Special Rule.
- - - - Bloodlust of Khorne
15pts = Daemon is Frenzy.
- - - - Death Strike
25pts = Shooting attack (Range 12") with 'Sniper' Special Rule causing a hit resolved with Daemon's Strength value.
- - - - Lash of Khorne
45pts - The Daemon can choose which enemy character accepts a challenge rather than the enemy, providing the character was elligible to accept the challenge in the first place. This Character may not refuse this challenge.
- - - - Collar of Khorne
15pts = MR3
- - - - Aura of Khorne
5pts = Whenever the Daemon is effected by a spell that uses a template (vortexes etcetera) roll a D6: On the roll of a 6 the spell is instantly cancelled and removed from play, but note that it still deals normal effect prior to reaching the Daemon with this Gift.SLAANESH GIFTS
- - - - Temptator
- 25pts = *same as now*
- - - - Allure of Slaanesh
- 45pts = Any enemy model that wishes to attack the Daemon with this Gift must immediately pass an Initiative Test lest it not be allowed to attack in this combat phase at all.
- - - - Enrapturing Gaze
- 25pts = Any enemy unit in base contact with a Daemon carrying this Gift may not use Inspiring Presence, note that the General's Leadership is still used if the General is in the unit however.
- - - - Siren Song
- 25pts = One use only. Whenever a Daemon with this Gift has Line of Sight to an enemy unit who declares a charge against another friendly unit, while also being able to declare a charge against the Daemon with the Siren Song Gift, the Siren Song may be activated before the charge distance roll has been made. The enemy unit in question must attempt to charge the Daemon with the Siren Song Gift as if this had been its initial declaration.
- - - - Luring Fumes
30pts = Enemy models in b2b halve their WS and I (rounding up).
- - - - Tormentblade
5pts = *Remove 'Hand weapon' from description of mechanic.*
- - - - Many Armed Monstrosity
40pts - +2 Attacks.
- - - - Aura of Slaanesh
25pts = Unit in in b2b have -1Ld. This penalty stacks with other reductions to Leadership, but not other Aura's of Slaanesh
- - - - Masochistic Vigour
20pts = For every wound the Daemon suffers it's Strength increase by 1, this effect is lost if the Daemon is subsequently healed.
- - - - SpiritSwallower
75pts = Daemon regains one wound for every wound caused in close-combat. This includes wounds caused simultaneously as Daemon's own attacks - i.e. same initiative, both have ASF/ASL etcetera.
- - - - Rending Claws
10pts = Ignore Armour Save when rolling 6 ToWound.NURGLE GIFTS
- - - - Blade of Entropy
50pts - For every unsaved wound the Daemon causes using its close-combat attacks the target must roll a D6. On a 4+ the target suffers all remaining wounds with no saves of any kind allowed.
- - - - Staff of Nurgle
35pts - Bound Spell Casting Level 4, casts Rancid Visitation
- - - - Trappings of Nurgle
30pts - *same as now*
- - - - Nurgle's Rot 25pts - At the start of each round of close-combat any enemy model in base Contact with this Daemon takes a Strength 1 hit, allowing no armour saves. Any wounds count toward combat resolution.
- - - - Aura of Nurgle
20pts - +1 to Regen.
- - - - Cloud of Flies
25pts - Enemies in b2b are at -1 ToHit the Daemon in close-combat.
- - - - Stream of Corruption
5pts - Daemon may forego normal attacks and deal D3 automatic hit at 'own Strength -1' (Herald = S4, GuO = S5) in close-combat.TZEENTCH GIFTS
- - - - Loremaster
30pts = The Daemon knows All spells from whichever Magic Lore it is using.
- - - - Master of Sorcery
20pts = Instead of using the Lore of Tzeentch the Daemon may choose one of the BrB
Lores. 'Normal' spell-selection.
- - - - Arcane Knowledge
15pts = Knows +1
Spell from whichever Lore it is using.
- - - - Staff of Change
50pts = The Daemon may roll one of his close combat attacks seperately. If this hits, the target of the attack must pass a Toughness test or be removed from play with no saves of any kind allowed. If the test is passed, roll to wound and make saves from the attack as normal."
- - - - Twin Heads
70pts - Daemon has +2 ToCast
- - - - Warp Strength
20pts = Every time a wizard within 12" of the Daemon casts a spell the Daemon gets +1S for the rest of the turn.
- - - - Power Vortex
= *same as now*
- - - - Attuned to Oblivion
15 pts = Daemon channels are at +1 (i.e. 5+ instead of 6+ for nominal model) and note that this does not effect joined units.
- - - - Elemental Form
5 pts = Daemon has 2+ Ward Save against Flaming Attacks.
- - - - Aura of Tzeentch
25 pts = +1 to Daemonic Wardsave.
- - - - Iridescant Corona
- 25pts = Every enemy model in b2b takes a S3 Flaming Hit every round of combat before any blows are struck.
- - - - Scrutinous Gaze
- 5pts = At the start of each friendly magic phase the Daemon may look at any enemy unit within line of sight. The opponent must reveal everything that is not apparent about the unit (magic items and their bearers, hidden Assasins and Fanatics, etc). *DPoT & LoC only!*
- - - - Power of the Warp
25 pts = Once per friendly magic phase the Daemon may attempt to re-cast any spell that the Daemon has previously cast successfully in its unboosted version in that same magic phase, in doing so the Daemon uses Power Dice from the Pool as normal.DAEMONIC ICONS:General:
Daemonic Icons are 'Magic Standards'
and therefore only 1 of each Icon can be present in the same Army, unlike Daemonic Gifts that may be duplicated on different Characters. Any spells or items that effect 'Magic Standards'
therefore also effects Daemonic Icons, unless specifically noted otherwise.Icon Allowance for Daemonic Units:Core Units
= Any Icon of Corresponding Mark costing up to 35pts Special/Rare
= Any Icon of Corrsponding Mark costing up to 50ptsThe Battle Standard Bearer
= May pick any of the Undivided Battle Standards. May also pick any of the 'lesser' Icons in their alignment whenever the General of the Army is also aligned. Note that a Daemonic Herald may carry a Battle Standard and also choose Daemonic Gifts as normal.Khorne Icons
1) Skull totem
: Unit automatically passes all “Enemy Sighted” tests. - 15pts
2) Icon of Endless War
: Extra D6" to first charge of the game. - 25pts
3) Banner of the Blood God's Blessing
: +1 Magic Resistance for the unit (to a maximum of 3). - 20pts
4) Icon of Crimson Carnage
: The unit gains the Hatred Special rule. If a Herald of Khorne is in the unit they get to re-roll their missed to hit rolls in every round of combat, not just the first. - 50 pointsSlaanesh Icons
1) Banner of Ecstasy
: Stubborn for unit’s first break test. - 25pts
2) Siren Standard
: Enemy may only hold as charge reaction. - 25pts
3) Icon of Exhilarating Vapours
: The unit gains the benefits of the Soporific Musk gift - 25pts
4) Icon of Enchanting Beauty
: Enemy unit wishing to shoot at unit carrying this standard must pass a Leadership test or may not fire this turn - 35ptsNurgle Icons
1) Icon of Eternal Virulence
: Poisoned wounds count double resolution - 20pts
2) Standard of Seeping Decay
: The unit may re-roll failed ToWound rolls when making close combat attacks - 35pts
3) Pestilent Shroud Standard
: The unit counts as being in soft cover (-1 ToHit modifyer) to enemy shooting. - 30pts
4) Icon of Stench
: All enemy models in base contact with the unit gain the Always Strikes Last special rule (exactly as the effect of the 'Noxious Vapours' Gift) 50ptsTzeentch Icons
1) Icon of Sorcery
: Pink Horrors in the unit get +1 To Cast. - 25 points.
2) Banner of Change
: Once per Friendly magic phase, D6 SD6 Hits against one enemy unit in base contact with banner bearer – 25 points
3) Vortex Standard
: Pink Horrors in the unit get +1 to their channelling attempts. - 25 points.
4) Icon of the Essence
: Pink Horrors ignore their first Miscast (exactly like Dark Magister
Gift) - 20 points.The Undivided Battle Standards
1. Great Standard of Sundering:
At the start of the game, choose one Lore of magic. All casting attempts made by any wizards using this lore are at -2. In addition, any wizard using the lore of light will suffer a miscast on a casting roll that includes a double 1 or 2. - 60pts Or *same function as currently* but 70pts cost!*
2. Standard of Chaos Glory
- 100pts *same function*
3. Banner of Unholy Victory
100pts = +D6 to CR
4. Great Icon of Despair
65pts = All Enemies within 12" have -1 Ld Penalty.Note that the Banner of Hellfire has been removed, while its 'name' has been recycled as Tzeentch Marked BSB!The Marked Battle Standards*The requirement for a Battle Standard Bearer to pick any of these Icons is that his own Mark corresponds to the Icon in question, as well as the Mark of the General of the Army. When the Battle Standard Bearer and the General is aligned to the same Mark, the Battle Standard Bearer may also choose any of the 'Lesser' Icons of its alignment.
(1) Khorne:The Banner of Martial Pride
: Whenever the unit with this banner suffers an unsaved wound from a ranged attack in the shooting phase, the firing unit immediately takes a S3 hit (resolved as shooting). In addition, if a spell cast by a wizard (friend or foe) in any way affects the unit with this banner (including randomly moving templates in subsequent turns, spells that have no target, and friendly augments or enemy hexes which target all units within a range) then the casting wizard suffers a S6 hit. – 75pts
(2) SlaaneshBanner of Intoxication
: Enemy units in base contact with the unit carrying this banner are never steadfast. – 70pts
(3) NurgleStandard of Endless Rot
: +1 Regeneration for the unit. – 80pts
(4) TzeentchBanner of Hellfire
: At the start of each combat phase, all enemy models in base contact with the banner bearer’s unit takes a S3 flaming hit. Any wounds caused in this process are added to combat resolution. – 70 pointsMISCALLENOUS ADDITIONS:
1 - Plaguetoad
added as mount for Herald of Nurgle.
2 - 'Serpent of Slaanesh'
added 'instead' of Fiend-mount, profile:M10,WS4,BS0,S4,T4,W3,I5,A2,Ld750 pts/modelUnit Type:
Monstrous BeastSpecial rules:
Armour piercing, Poisoned attacks.-Mount option for Herald of Slaanesh.
3 - 'Palanquin of Nurgle'
*Available as mount for Herald of Nurgle, Prince of Nurgle and Great Unclean One.
*Unchanged stats, two added Special Rules:
- - - - - Borne aloft
- A character riding a Palanquin remains the same unit type and gains a +1 bonus to his armour save.
- - - - - Pestilent Landside
- If ridden by a Monster, the rider uses his own Strength value when making Thunderstomp attacks.~~~~~~~~THE MAGIC LORES THE DAEMON LORE OF TZEENTCH
Tzeentch Attribute: The Masters of Magic: Whenever a spell from the Lore of Tzeentch is successfully cast, after working out the spell resolution, re-roll the power-dice used to cast spell: Any 6 rolled adds one Power Dice to the Power Pool.[ SIGNATURE ] - Flickering Fire:
5+ ToCast. Magic Missile Range 18". D6+1 Hits at D6+1 Strength.
Boosted version 10+ = Range 36" D6+2 hits at D6+2 Strength.1 -Boon of Tzeentch:Augment, Targets casting wizard.
4+ ToCast, Adds D3+1 dice to casting Wizard's Pool.
Boosted 9+, Adds D3+1 dice to Army Pool.2 - Glean MagicHex9+ ToCast
- Hex Range 24". Cast on enemy wizard. If the spell is successful/not dispelled; Choose any one of his spells, you may immediately cast* the unboosted version of this spell automatically with no possibility for opponent to dispel.Boosted 16+ To Cast
Range 48" - In addition to above, spell may be cast on basic or boosted version.*Note that the Lore Attribute of the gleaned spell is triggered when it is cast, as if the Daemon stealing the spell was the caster - then, when the gleaned spell and its attribute has been resolved, the attribute of the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch is triggered as well.3 - Gift Of Chaos - Augment Range 18" 10+ ToCast, target unit gains +1 Wardsave, in addition roll D6 on this Chart:'1'
= +1WS / '2'
= +1S / '3'
=+1T / '4'
= +2I / '5'
= +1A / '6'
= Casting Player Choose Any Alt. 1-5.The wizard may choose to have this spell effect all friendly units within 12", if doing so the casting value increases to 20+.
Note that a unit can never get a Wardsave better than 2+, and never increase any given stat beyond 10.[/i]4 - Bolt of Change13+
ToCast Nominal (*same as in Current Book*
ToCast Boosted (Range 36")19+
ToCast Boosted (Range 48")5 - Maelstrom of ChangeVortex. 13+ To Cast, 23+ To Cast Boosted Version."SD3+1 with 4D6" range, with the boosted version using the large template. Roll once per Magic Phase to determine the Strength of any hits inflicted. In subsequent turns this Vortex scatters 2D6, if a Hit! is rolled the player who cast it decides the direction and if a double is rolled the Vortex is removed from play. No Armour Saves may be taken against damage caused by the Mealstrom of Change.6 -Tzeentch Firestorm.
18+ ToCast, Direct Damage Range 18", Every model in target unit takes SD6 Flaming Hit. For every 3 wounds caused a Horror is created; forming a new unit within 3" of the Target unit. Boosted Version 21+ ToCast: Range 36". Horrors generated by a Firestorm are worth 50 Victory Points.THE DAEMON LORE OF SLAANESH
Slaanesh Attribute: Whispers of Seduction Of all followers, Slaanesh values those in positions of influence most of all, as nothing gives him greater pleasure than to see even the highest and mightiest brought low and debased before him. Whenever a spell from the Daemon Lore of Slaanesh targets an enemy character, or an enemy unit containing characters, reduce the casting value of the spell by 1 (to a minimum of 1) for each character targeted. Hidden characters, such as Dark Elf and Skaven assasins, do not count towards this unless they are revealed or otherwise 'known' to the Daemon General by some other means.[SIGNATURE] - Acquiescence Hex
5+ ToCast Range 18" = Target unit is Stupid for the remainder of the game.
8+ ToCast Boosted, Range 36" = Target unit is Stupid for the remainder of the game.1. - Cursed CaressAugment, Targets Casting Wizard
7+ ToCast = The target model immediately makes one close combat attack using any Special Rules associated with its profile, on chosen enemy model in base contact. If this attack hits, it causes D3 wounds allowing no armour saves. The wizard may boost this spell so that the any successfull Hit instead causes D6 wounds, if doing so the casting value is 12+
.2 - Supreme TemptationsHex/Augment8+ ToCast
= Range 24"
, Until the start of the Caster's next Magic Phase the Target unit has the 'Stubborn' Special Rule but may not make use of the Hold Your Ground! or Inspiring Presence Special Rules. The wizard may choose to increase the range of this spell to 48", if doing so the casting value is increased to 11+.3 - Slicing Shards of SlaaneshMagic Missile9+ ToCast
= Range 24", D6 S5 Hits, target must then pass a Ld test or take another D6 S5 Hits. This continues until unit either passes an Ld test or all models are slain.15+ ToCast Boosted
= Range 48", 2d6 S5 Hits, target must then pass a Ld test or take another 1D6 S5 Hits. This continues until unit either passes an Ld test or all models are slain.4 - Succour of ChaosAugment, May Target Wizard or friendly Daemon Unit, Until Caster's Next Magic Phase
10+ ToCast, Range 18" = Target unit ignores armour saves in combat until the start of the caster's next magic phase. If the enemy they are fighting would get no armour save anyway, the target unit may re-roll failed to wound rolls instead.
20+ ToCast Boosted, All Daemons within 12"5 - Phantasmagoria Hex, Until Caster's Next Magic Phase10+ ToCast = Target unit within 24" of Caster rolls 3d6 for every ld-test discarding the lowest result. If an affected unit has the ability to roll 3D6 for a Leadership test and discard the highest dice, the two effects cancel out and the test is taken on 2D6 as normal. This spell can be boosted to effect all enemy units within 24", in that case the casting value is 20+.6 - Pavane of SlaaneshDirect Damage, Single Enemy model (per Sniper Special Rule)15+ ToCast
= Range 12", Target model rolls 3D6, for every digit by which this roll exceeds the target's unmodified Leadership value it takes a wound on the roll of 2+. Wounds caused by the Pavane of Slaanesh allow no armour saves. If the target takes any wounds but survives the attack, it has its Leadership permanently reduced by 1 (to a minimum of 1) for the rest of the game. The wizard may boost the range of this spell to 24", if doing so the casting cost is 18+.THE DAEMON LORE OF NURGLENurgle Attribute: Creeping Rot"Whenever a Nurgle spell is successfully cast any enemy unit within 6" of the spell's target immediately takes D3 Hits with a Strength value equal to the caster's magic level, wounds caused in this way allow no Armour Saves."[Signature] - Miasma of PestilenceAugment, Targets Caster.3+ ToCast = Any enemy unit in b2b gets WeaponSkill and Initiative reduced By 1, to a minimum of 1.
8+ ToCast Boosted = Any enemy unit in b2b gets same stats reduced by 1D3 to a minimum of 1.1 - Pit Of SlimeHex, Range 24"7+ ToCast
= Target must pass Strength test using the lowest value in the unit or cannot Move or Shoot until the caster's next magic phase10+ ToCast Boosted
= Range 48"2 - Stream of CorruptionAugment, May be cast on Self or friendly Character within 12"8+ ToCast
= Breath weapon attack that targets the caster, resolved instantly. Models touched by template must pass T-test or take a wound with no armour saves allowed. If cast on a model in combat, this spell causes 2d6 T-tests on the enemy unit where failed tests causes wounds with no armour saves allowed. The caster may choose to instead target this spell on any friendly character within 12", if doing so the casting value is increased to 11+. If cast on a friendly non-Nurgle Character the model takes an S3 hit with no armour saves allowed directly after spell-resolution.3 - Rancid VisitationMagic Missile10+ ToCast
= Range 24", Target unit takes D6 S5 Hits. It must then pass a Toughness test or take another D6 S5 hits. This continues until unit either passes a Toughness test or all models are slain.16+ ToCast Boosted
= Range 48", Target unit takes 2D6 S5 Hits. It must then pass a Toughness test or take another 1D6 S5 hits. This continues until unit either passes a Toughness test or all models are slain.4 - Shrivelling PoxDirect Damage, Targets Enemy Model as perSniper rule within 18"9+ ToCast
= Target takes D6 T-tests, taking a wound for each failed test with no armour saves allowed.16+ ToCast Boosted
= Range increases to 36", model has to take 2D6 tests.5 - Blessing of NurgleHex 12+Blessing of Nurgle is a Hex spell with a range of 18". If successfully cast the target must re-roll all successful to wound rolls it makes when shooting and in combat until the start of the caster's next magic phase. If the target unit has the ability to re-roll failed to wound rolls for any reason then these two effects cancel out and the unit rolls to wound as normal. The caster may choose to increase the range of this spell to 36". If he does so, the casting value is increased to 15+.6 - PlaguewindDirect Damage18+ ToCast
= Range 18", Every model in unit takes T-test or suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed, for every 3 wounds caused a Plaguebearer is created forming a new unit within 3" of Target.25+ ToCast Boosted
= Range 36", Every model in unit takes T-test or suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed, for every 3 wounds caused a Nurgling Base OR Plaguebearer (casters choice, but you may not create a mix of the two) is created forming new units within 3" of the Target.
Lovely Fox Spirit
Member No.: 2,592
Joined: 1-November 10
For some points I say that you are very correct, but on some points you get to the usual enthusiasm where new ideas tend to get bit too good and make already good units plain overpowered. Your post is long so I try to analyze it and add my own thoughs in parts.
1 - I agree they should be more viable. If everything would be totally balanced, which is bit of an utopia, you could make viable lists with either mono or multigod lists. In my opinion daemons do not need more troop types, but more customization options instead. For example Bloodletters could have a choise of getting khornate armor, frenzy, killing blow weapons or something like that. I will tell more about this idea later, but it would atleast give very good ideas for converting some models and making armies look unique. Re-introducing units like Pleasureseekers etc could be a fine idea too to creat some more diversity.
2 - Idea of it is nice, but it would make greater daemons way too good. GuO with regeneration is quite a bit harder to kill than herald with 2 wounds, so 2 blocks of Plaguebearers would be quite insane with this. LoC in the middle of horrors would be quite terrifying also as it could buff horrors with magic too. So yeah, I like the idea but think that it is definately too powerful.
3 - Magic lores mainly need higher casting costs, as almost all spells are way too easy to cast at the moment. Lores need one more spell to get to same level than basic rulebook lores and lore attribute would make lores more appealing to Slaanesh and Nurgle heralds. Lore of Tzeentch is still an excellent lore and it only needs some minor tweaking like introducing one mass destruction spell. I would think Slaanesh lore needs most work, as Ld effects were harshly toned down in this edition thanks to bigger Ld bubbles and Bsb effects getting better.
4 - More icons would mean more customization, but daemons are good with what they already have. They do not need it to survive, but different kinds of options would ofcourse be welcome.
I talked earlier about the customization and in this section I tell those ideas in more detail. Idea of custom troops is same that with any troop weapon and equipment choises, you could get great weapons for +2pts for example and stuff like that. I also like idea of keeping every unit their own personal touch, so no multiple attacks for letters, daemonettes are fast, nurgle durable and so on.
Bloodletters are too cheap for their stats, 13pts without killing blow would be what I would say is fair. Options would be:
Hellblades +1pts/per model: Killing blow
Armor of Khorne +2pts/per model: heavy armor and MR2
Fury of Khorne +2pts/per model: Devastating charge special rule
Bloodletters like this would have option on having every single update and becoming sort of an super elite. Armor is not too harsh update, but with 2 5+ saves it would definately make them tougher. Devastating charge is expensive, as it could become very powerful with charge flag and heralds hatred.
Daemonettes are too expensive I agree, so ~11pts each would be more fair.
Soporific Musk +1pts/ per model: same effect as with fiends
Aura of Slaanesh +2pts/ per model: Opponent gets -1 to Ld when in base contact with daemonettes
Furious +1pts/ per model: Fight in extra ranks
This would keep daemonettes fast and fragile force as they are, but would also make them seducing and dangerous foe that is intended to fight against steadfast blocks. Deep ranks with furious would give them extra attacks and with ASF rerolls its good bonus and aura would help breaking steadfast, triggering fear and herald items. It would make them more Slaaneshi and define their role as a nonelite killers better.
Plaguebearers are good at 12pts
Cloud of flies +2pts per model: Opponent gets -1 to hit in melee.
Blessing of Plaguefather +2pts per model: Immune to killing blow (not heroic killing blow) and get ward saves against instant killing stat tests.
Stream of corruption +2pts per model: Instead of normal attacks each Plaguebearer could make one automatic S3 hit on opponents.
Nurgle gifts would make them stronger and more resilient and they cost lots since the effects themselves are very strong. Stream would give them some more tactical edge against weak opponents.
Horrors are good at 12pts but need total revamp of their spell casting abilities. Free bound spells thats power depends on their level was a good idea and it would definately make them more like an magical manifestations. I do not have well thought ideas of their magic systems though so I do not have much to comment here.
Flesh hounds are good as they are, but they could be given options like:
Fury of Khorne +3pts/per model: Devastating charge special rule
Striders +2pts/per model: Strider rule
Hunters +4pts/per model: Rerolls to hit and wound against one enemy unit chosen in the beginning of the battle.
This would strenghen their fluffy role as hunting dogs of Khorne. They would move fast, strike furiously and could be nominated to hunt a specific target.
Screamers would either deserve points drop of 10pts or T4 for added endurance at the same points. I would go with 30pts and T4 as it fits idea of elite army more, they are skirmishers afterall, so killing them with shooting is bit more harder.
Screamers would also deserve furious charge rule to make them more appealing on warmachine hunting.
Protection of Tzeentch 3pts per model: MR2
Eaters of magic 5pts per model: Every wizard withing 6" of the screamers needs 1 more to cast spells.
Small increase of toughnes would make them more viable, as they are now more like a free kills. Magic protection would be against magic missiles. Furious assault would make them viable but bit expensive war machine hunters. Magic eaters would give them new role that fits their fluff and still would not be too harsh as they are very easy to kill.
Nurglings are pretty good as they are. Being lesser daemons of the Nurgle I wouldnt even give them any gifts.
Seekers at 20pts is fair or 24pts with 3 attacks each.
Soporific Musk +2pts/ per model: same effect as with fiends
Aura of Slaanesh +3pts/ per model: Opponent gets -1 to Ld when in base contact with daemonettes
Furious +2pts/ per model: Furious charge special rule.
Crushers are fine as they are, but equipment choises like letters might be nice:
Armor of Khorne +10pts/per model: 2+ armor and MR2
Fury of Khorne +5pts/per model: Devastating charge special rule
Bloodcrazy +5pts/per model: Frenzy special rule
Crushers could be customized to even more destructive force, but with frenzy they could also be misdirected easily. Their high points cost ensures that they would not be overpowered even with charge banner and many attacks.
Flamers are fine. In my opinion they are not even that great as some people say =)
Beasts of nurgle would be fine at 100pts each but with extra ability of Cloud of flies that gives opponent a -1 to hit penalty.
Playful +20 per model: Unit gains Stupid and stubborn special rules
Rotten to the core +10pts per model: Unit gains +3 regeneration
Trained monster +10 per model: You can reroll your random attacks for each model.
Playful upgrade would again suit their fluffy rules and give possibility to make them into a great anvils that might play some tricks on you. Bigger regeneration skill would again make them more suitable anvils that couls still be countered with flames. Trained would give them more fighting edge, but still keep them very random.
Fiends are great as they are
Scorpion tail +5 per model: Fiend gets additional S3 poisonous attack
SOME MORE IDEAS
As for lords, all greater daemons are just great as they are now (no pun intended) and they need no fixing. Daemon prince would be good choise as it is now, if it would benefit something from the marks like:
Tzeentch: Loremaster of Tzeentch
AND in addition being former mortal you could add him into units even though he is a monstrous creature. Those additions would justify his high points cost and make him viable choise on lists and it would even fit fluff wise as he was once a mortal and fights with his "comrades" like one even though he is now a daemon. Other greater daemons joining units would be way too powerful though, as their stats and gifts are lot more dangerous.
Intoducing rare choise chariots for different deities would be nice. There isnt even much work there to do, just by doubling the price of herald chariots you could get balanced and fine choises that would again make the army more unique.
These were my thoughts of the topic. I am sure I had more of them, but writing for so long I have forgotten half of them atleast =)
The Eternal Bloodletter
Member No.: 2,658
Joined: 24-January 11
Appendix B – Daemons in the 41st Millennium
The advantage of the Daemon models is that most can be used for both Warhammer and 40k. With this in mind here follows some suggestions on how the new units we have created for Warhammer can be incorporated into the current Codex: Chaos Daemons. Here we have taken a two-fold approach, either they can be incorporated into an existing army using the “counts-as” rule, or the rules presented below can be added directly into the codex using White Dwarf (assuming there isn’t another simultaneous Warhammer and 40k release like the last one) in a similar manner to the Eldar Night Spinner.
WARHAMMER UNIT – 40K “COUNTS-AS”
Be’Lakor – Daemon Prince
N’Kari – Keeper of Secrets
Eye of Tzeentch – Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
Phantasm – Daemon Prince of Slaanesh
Behemoth/Skullshrine – Herald of Khorne on Chariot
Changebringer – Herald of Tzeentch on Disc
Plague Toad/Plague Rider – Beast of Nurgle
New units option
HQ: N’Kari – 280pts
WS8, BS4, S6, T6, W4, I10, A7, Ld10, Save 4+
UNIT TYPE: Monstrous Creature
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Fleet.
Revelation of Dark Desires: At the start of the Daemon shooting phase, all enemy units within 18” of N’Kari have to take an Ld test. Any that fail take D6 wounds with AP-, ignoring cover saves.
DAEMONIC GIFTS: Soporific Musk, Aura of Acquiescence, Transfixing Gaze.
WARGEAR: The Unholy Spear – Any attacks made by N’Kari that roll a 6 to wound cause two wounds instead of one.
HQ: Herald of Nurgle
Add to mount options: Plague Toad (+20pts). The Plague Toad adds +1 to the Heralds Wounds and Attacks characteristics, and changes the Herald’s unit type from Infantry to Cavalry.
HQ: Herald of Slaanesh
Add to mount options: Serpent of Slaanesh (+25pts). The Serpent adds +1 to the Heralds Strength, Wounds and Attacks characteristics, and changes the Herald’s unit type from Infantry to Cavalry.
Add to list of options: Entire unit may be upgraded to Changebringers for +5pts. Changebringers are Flamers riding Discs of Tzeentch.
FAST ATTACK: Plague Toads – 24pts
WS2, BS0, S4, T4, W2, I2, A2, Ld10, Save 5+
UNIT TYPE: Beasts
Unit Size: 3-10 models
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Slow and Purposeful, Poisoned Attacks, Feel no Pain.
Options: One model may be upgraded to have Noxious Touch for +10pts.
FAST ATTACK: Pox Riders – 38pts
WS3, BS0, S4, T5, W2, I2, A3, Ld10, Save 5+
UNIT TYPE: Cavalry
Unit Size: 3-10 models
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Slow and Purposeful, Feel no Pain.
DAEMONIC GIFTS: Plagueswords
Options: One model may be upgraded to have Noxious Touch for +10pts, one may have a Chaos Icon for +25pts and one may have an Instrument of Chaos for +5pts.
HEAVY SUPPORT: Phantasm of Slaanesh – 140pts
WS5, BS3, S5, T5, W4, I5, A5, Ld10, Save 5+
UNIT TYPE: Monstrous Creature
Unit size: 1
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Fleet.
Divine Perfumes: This is a shooting attack that has the following profile:
Range: Template, S2, AP2, Assault 1
Any unit that takes casualties reduces its WS and I by –D3 for the rest of the player turn.
DAEMONIC GIFTS: Soporific Musk, Rending Claws.
HEAVY SUPPORT: Behemoth of Khorne – 160pts
Behemoth: WS5, BS0, S6, T6, W4, I2, A4, Ld10, Save 5+
Skullshrine: WS4, BS0, S6, T6, W4, I1, A3, Ld10, Save 5+
UNIT TYPE: Monstrous Creature
Unit size: 1
Options: The Behemoth may be upgraded to a Skullshrine for +10pts.
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Furious Charge.
Onslaught (Behemoth Only): On a turn when it assaults the Behemoth gets +D3 attacks instead of the usual +1, and any of its attacks that roll a 6 to wound inflict instant death as the enemy are trampled underfoot or smashed asunder.
Shrine of Khorne (Skullshrine Only): Every time a psyker within 24” of the Skullshrine successfully passes a psychic test roll a D6. On a roll of 4+ the psychic power is nullified and fails to work.
Daemon Chains (Skullshrine Only): Any psyker that rolls a 1 to hit when attacking the Skullshrine in combat suffers an immediate Perils of the Warp attack.
DAEMONIC GIFTS: Iron Hide, Blessing of the Blood God (Skullshrine Only).
HEAVY SUPPORT: Eye of Tzeentch – 140pts
WS3, BS4, S5, T5, W4, I3, A(D6+1), Ld10, Save 4+
UNIT TYPE: Monstrous Creature
Unit size: 1
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic.
Whirling Blades: When the Eye engages in close combat, its star–armour angles towards the enemy and starts spinning, slicing into the enemy ranks and slicing off heads and limbs. To represent this, any enemy model that rolls a 1 when rolling to hit the Eye takes an automatic Strength 5 hit.
DAEMONIC GIFTS: Warpfire, Bolt of Tzeentch, Iron Hide.
Options: May take any of the following: Daemonic Gaze at +20pts; Master of Sorcery at +10pts; We are Legion at +40pts.
The Eternal Bloodletter
Member No.: 2,658
Joined: 24-January 11
Table of Contents
This is the actual re-write. Presented in PDF-format mimicking an actual army book.
Appendix B - The 'Legion Lords'
In past incarnations of Chaos there have been Exalted Daemons, characters that were a middle-ground between Heralds and a Daemon Prince. We analysed the possibility of reintroducing something like this in the form of Infantry Lords to the Daemonic repertoir, which we named 'Legion Lords.'
This board was divided over the pro's, con's, and possible constingencies of adding a Lord choice (effectively bridging the gap between the Daemon Prince and Heralds) with the ability to join units. We decided not to include these Legion Lords in the actual re-write, but our drafts for what we envisioned can be viewed here as a reference.
It should be noted that after dropping the idea of these Legion Lords we made a lot of changes to the Daemon Prince that arguably makes the inclusion of Legion Lords obsolete. In essence, their inclusion would probably necessitate the Daemon Prince becoming more powerful and with a higher points cost to differenstiate it from these new Lord choices.
Appendix C - Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Chaos Daemons
This project has been focused on the Warhammer Fantasy Battles Daemons of Chaos, but consideration was naturally paid to the application of our suggestions in the 40k setting. Appendix C therefore presents a rough draft adressing how units like (for example) the Phantasm and Behemoth/Skullshrine could operate in Warhammer 40,000. It should be noted that, unlike our Fantasy Section, we have no immediate plans to playtest in Warhammer 40,000.
Appendix D - Concepts and models.
During the course of this project some of us have been inspired to create conceptual models for some of the new units that we suggest - pictures of these, as well as inspirirational material randomly found on the internet are bundled in this Appendix for reference.
Appendix E - Review of Playtesting for Warhammer Fantasy
As we submit this project to Games Workshop we have already started playtesting the contents of Appendix A. This has already led to minor changes to details (implemented in the first draft sent to Games Workshop) and will no doubt generate further changes down the line. Appendix D will be a separate submission at a later point, not included in the initial package sent to Games Workshop.
It should be noted that battle reports and discussion pertaining to them are being continously added to the thread at the Daemonic Legion Forum (www.thedaemoniclegion.com).
General Designer's Notes with regards to Appendix A - The Re-write
The purpose of this project has been 'flesh out' the existing Daemons of Chaos Army Book, essentially updating it for the 8th Edition of Warhammer Fantasy. 'Fixes' have been employed, rather than removal, when it comes to gifts and icons deemed problematic in the current Army Book; These are to be considered suggestions for how to keep these items, but we are humble to the fact that some old items are likely to be removed as new ones are inserted. This re-write has naturally been inspired by the army books released for 8th Edition thus far, and it is in that spirit that we sincerely hope our work will be a source of inspiration for the Lead Developer of the next Daemons of Chaos Army Book. This re-write is being sent to the Games Development Team, and will be followed by a more extensive "Playtest-Run" where we will report back to Games Development on our own findings.
Disclaimer! - While we have been taking this project very seriously, it is important to point out to any reader that this re-write is 100% fan-based and Games Workshop has not been involved, commented on, or 'supported' this project in any way. We're just a varied assortment of Daemon-players from around the world who have come together on a Forum (The Daemonic Legion) to discuss something that is very dear to us: Daemons of Chaos!
These 'Designer's Notes' will cover the sections of the army book as we have worked through them, focusing on those subjects where this 'consensus project' reached the least consensus. Details being mentioned briefly, or not at all, are such issues where consensus was reached by our Board. The purpose of these notes are, after all, to give a quick guide to the re-write so every new points cost or rules change will not be defended specifically. Before discussing these sections, some general 'principles of design' should be mentioned.
We have decided to keep the mechanic of Daemonic Instability from the current army book, while acknowledging that both the "Storm of Magic" and "Tamurkhan" (Warhammer Forge) releases featured Daemons with the Unstable Special Rule. It is our view that Instability is a more interesting mechanic, and above all that it creates a good separation between Daemonic units and the Undead. Removing Instability for the sake of streamlining gameplay does not seem worthwhile to us. If it is indeed the ideological intent of the Games Development Team to remove Instability, we would prefer virtually every option over the Unstable rule (which belongs to 'dead things' in our view). For example, the old mechanic of entire units being removed when rolling higher than your unmodified leadership value in a break-test could be re-instated and this would be 'preferable' (despite requiring the same re-evaluations of points costs across the board) compared to giving Daemons the Unstable Rule, which in our view would simply turn Daemons into a ‘3rd Undead army’ for a lot of players.
We do acknowledge that Daemons are a 'strong' faction amongst the armies in Warhammer, particularly able (in our present army book) to create a vast array of competitive builds with great synergy. This issue has been partly addressed with a new version of Daemonic Rivalry that effects the Inspiring Presence of Daemonic Generals as well as rebalancing of the more powerful options currently available to Daemons.
Our suggestion for Daemonic Rivalry is intended to be mostly a background-driven rule, although it's also intended to curtail the versatile synergies of the Daemon Army in a marginal way. The concept of Daemonic Rivalry has been embedded into this re-write in two ways:
First of all, we have embedded 'affiliation' in the already present Daemonic Special rule, where-by all Daemons (except Furies in the Daemon Prince) are specifically noted to serve a particular patron god; in the Army List this is seen by brackets e.g. Daemonic (Khorne). Daemonic generals, thus, only confer Inspiring Presence on Daemons that are servants of the same Chaos God. As will be further discussed below, changes have been made to the Daemon Prince (most importantly increasing its Leadership) will however allow players to have an Undivided General (getting Inspiring Presence on all Daemons), albeit with the downside of the 'Unmarked Daemon Prince' being more fragile - and having 6" less range on his Inspiring Presence - compared to the Greater Daemons.
Secondly, aside of the 'negative incentive' put on Daemonic Inspiring Presence; we suggest a 'positive incentive' with respect to the alignment of Battle Standard Bearer and the General of the Army. Essentially, if your Battle Standard Bearer and General are followers of the same Chaos God, the optional Icons the Herald may pick include not just the (4) 'standard' BSB-Icons but also any unused 'unit icon' from the Chaos power in question. In addition, we suggest the addition of a '5th' God-specific Battle Standard Icon, that is strongly themed to the background of each Chaos God, and naturally only available to the Battle Standard Bearer. Even then, it can only be taken as long as the Battle Standard Bearer and General are servants of the same Chaos God.
The majority of this board feels that our version of Daemonic Rivalry is soft enough in mechanical terms in order to not ruin specific players armies and private notions of 'how Daemons should be played', while at the same time imposing a degree of restriction that encourages background-driven lists and essentially gives Daemons a little weakness for all their inherent strengths. It is our sincere hope that the Lead Developer would look toward creating restrictions like this, rather than (for example) removing Gifts, Instability, Daemonic Aura, or re-instating the requirements of 'True Core' from previous editions.
We have decided to keep Daemonic Gifts working the same way they do in the current book. The number of Gifts available has been expanded, and this is to be regarded as a 'bundle' of suggestions for mechanics that we think would work well as Daemonic Gifts. We are aware that the number of Gifts will most likely be fewer in any official release, but we felt the nature of this re-write made it suited for making a broad set of suggestions. We have of course noted a decrease in army-specific Magic Items in other 8th edition army books - although all such armies are compensated by having access to a wide range of 'shared' Magic Items from the main rulebook. Indeed, the number of Gifts in our revision are almost exactly as many as the 'net total' of Magic Items available to other 8th Ed Army Books. Simply put, it is the sentiment of this Board that Daemons should have access to at least as many Gifts as currently.
The opinion of our Board was quite divided with respect to the two 'dispelling' Gifts (Spell Breaker and Spell Destroyer) - the question being whether there ought to be a special restriction making these particular Gifts only "0-1 per army." The argument for this is that other armies only get access to one Dispel Scroll. The opposing argument is the poor aesthetic/background of creating a special case for a certain set of Gifts; coupled with the fact that 'duplication' of these Gifts haven't been presented as a balance-problem by the community (i.e. most people rarely include more than one per army anyway). In addition, participants in this project also pointed out that despite the Dispel Scroll being a 0-1 choice Magic Item, most other armies have access to an array of other "anti-magic" items (which Daemons don't have access to at all) that compensate for only having access to one ‘auto-dispel’ item. We ultimately agreed that this issue is best left to the Games Development Team in its entirety.
Acknowledging the Errata/FAQ that made them "Magic Standards" (i.e. 0-1 choices), we have followed suit and essentially doubled the number of available Icons to each Chaos power. The internal balance of the Battle Standards has also been addressed, and the options for Battle Standard Bearers have also been increased (i.e. the Battle Standard Bearer's optional Icons are increased in variety when the General of the army is a servant of the same Chaos God, as mentioned previously).
In order to increase the depth of the dynamic in our current book we've employed a general principle of "two upgrades" per unit. However, as you will be able to see throughout this re-write, there are a handful of units (Furies, Nurglings, Screamers, Flesh Hounds...) that have been left without such upgrades. These decisions have been taken mostly on a basis of background as it didn’t seem fitting for some of the units of ‘lower status’ to be endowed with 'upgrades'. Also, applying upgrades universally seemed superfluous (in some cases only adding 'rules creep', as it were).
This has been perhaps the most freely creative part of this project, as we've simply brainstormed a couple of new units (Behemoth of Khorne, Phantasm of Slaanesh, and The Eye of Tzeentch) as pure 'guesswork'. More so - at this point, even compared to the rest of this re-write - we are certainly humble to the fact that we have no idea what's actually being developed. Our basic guideline has been little more than looking at 'what other armies have been getting' in 8th Ed.
The idea of a dual-kit (i.e. a box that can either build a Slaanesh or a Khorne 'thing') was abandoned. We realise the desirability of a 'big cross-Mark dual kit', however, and wouldn't be surprised to see one in the future! In our opinion, the vast conceptual difference between Daemons of different Marks is poor grounds for making a "dual-kit" aesthetically. Hence, in this re-write are suggestions for three God-specific units (all are monsters in the Rare Section), which we imagine could be released in separate boxes (Finecast or Plastic).
We could see a 'dual-kit' working with a "Daemonic Cauldron" or "Daemonic Altar" (or similar contraption), but it was the unison sentiment of this board that this would fit Daemons rather poorly. New units should be Daemons in our opinion, and the reason for installing our suggestions in the Rare Section is mostly that the Core and Special Sections had already gained another five units not currently available.
We have suggested the addition of 'new' units that exist through Forge World (Plague Toads and Pox Riders) as well as reinstating Daemonic Chariots as fully independent Special units (all bar the Nurgle-chariot since this one is not featured in the current book even as a mount!). These new units have been sprinkled across the sections, as will be discussed further below. Most notably, Plague Toads are the only addition in the Core Section, and this is 'balanced' by there being no new Nurgle unit in the Rare Section. While every other Chaos power gets a Chariot in the Special Section, Nurgle gains Pox Riders instead.
It is worth noting specifically that Bloodcrushers and Fiends have been 'moved' to the Special Section. This was prompted by the additions of new units that would otherwise have 'crowded up' the Rare Section. The changes to Bloodcrushers and Fiends were not dependant on this move to the Special slot, however, except for the minimum unit-sizes being changed from 1+ to 2+ (Bloodcrushers) and 3+ (Fiends), as would seem appropriate for Special units. This move to the Special Section is 'conditional' on the inclusion of the other Rare Units that we have added. Bloodcrushers and Fiends (without the addition of other Rare Units) could very well remain Rare Units and thus accordingly keep their 1+ unit size requirement - although comparable units in new Army Books for 8th Edition are all Special Units.
Furies have also been moved to the Special Section, in an attempt to follow precedence of other army books in 8th edition. Their current status of not counting toward any requirement/restriction seems to be a thing of the past, put simply.
Designer's Notes on the Sections of the Army Book:
Plague Toads have been added here, using rules fairly identical to the experimental rules provided by Forge World prior to the Tamurkhan release.
The already existing Core units have received minor changes to points costs where appropriate, and each unit has been endowed with two optional upgrades each.
This section has grown considerably compared to our current army book. We have reintroduced Chariots for Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch as independent units, and Furies, Fiends and Bloodcrushers have been moved to this section.
Flamers of Tzeentch and Beasts of Nurgle remain in this section, mostly changed with respect to the optional upgrades they have been endowed with. In addition, here we also find the Behemoth of Khorne, the Phantasm of Slaanesh and the Eye of Tzeentch - our ideas for 'big kits' that are becoming a much cherished signature of army releases for 8th Edition.
The Heralds have received a minor increase in cost across the board, minor changes have also been applied individually: Most notably the option for Slaanesh/Nurgle Heralds to buy a second Magic Level. Another change worth mentioning is the addition of Ballistic Skill for the Herald of Khorne - as prompted by Daemonic Gifts that requires Ballistic Skill.
*The Legion Lords* - These profiles have been kept in a separate Appendix for reference. They can be described as a creative 'merge' between the current Daemonic Heralds and the 'Exalted Daemons' that once existed in the Game. These profiles are very 'rough' compared to our other suggestions - and are to be reviewed as such.
The Daemon Prince - Keeping the basic structure of this unit it still turned out to be probably the most revamped unit in this re-write. Both our Board and all external sources agreed, quite simply, that the Daemon Prince in the current Army Book needs a very definite overhaul. Our suggestion for Daemonic Rivalry also makes the Unmarked Daemon Prince an important part of the Lord Section, further adding the need of making it generally more viable.
Therefore the improvements made to this profile may appear as extreme to the casual observer. Aside of a cut in basic cost, the Daemonic Marks are suggested to carry 'Daemonic traits' (i.e. Hatred & MR for Khorne etcetera), the Gift Allowance have been increased to a full 100pts with the added benefit of freer access to 'Marked Gifts'. The 'Winged Majesty' (Wings) was added due to the removal of the Winged Horror Gift, and if taking the Mark of Nurgle one may also mount a Daemon Prince on a Palanquin.
As radical improvements for the Daemon Prince as we've suggested, there were still members of this Board who thought we hadn't 'gone far enough'. The discussion was oftentimes profound, long and heated. Given the 'new' role of the Daemon Prince in this re-write, and given the huge disparity between the opinions of different Board-members, the profile submitted is merely a benchmark for play testing (and the Daemon Prince will be a key focus of such testing!).
The Greater Daemons - We essentially added a 6th wound to these profiles and re-evaluated their point costs individually. The Bloodthirster ended up considerably more expensive as a result of this, while the 3 other Greater Daemons are fairly equal in cost compared to the current Army Book.
Minor 'tweaks' (mostly background-driven) were applied to other Stats on their profiles (such as the Movement of the Keeper and Great Unclean One being reduced slightly).
Origins of our revised Greater Daemons - The reason why we put such priority to adding a 6th wound to their profiles is not entirely based in nostalgia. We simply felt that in order for Greater Daemons to remain 'great' in the environment of 8th Edition having 6 wounds is basically necessary. Another much discussed option was to endow the Greater Daemons with same kind of 'traits' that Heralds possess - coupling this with the addition of a 6th wound would have prompted these profiles to become too expensive (not fitting into 'normal' games, as it were) so we were forced to make a choice.
General Note on the Special Characters - We have kept ourselves to suggesting two new Special Characters, and it seemed reasonable to add a Character to a 'slot' that is empty in the current Army Book. Presently, we have no Special Character that is either a Daemon Prince, or a Keeper of Secrets. At this point we surveyed the history of the lore of Warhammer Fantasy and picked out Be'lakor (Daemon Prince) and N'kari (Keeper of Secrets) to be our candidates.
The Special Characters already present in our current book have all been more or less re-worked from a rather strict perspective of fixing imbalances. Save for the Changeling all the current Special Characters remain largely the same at surface - although the Changeling is no longer a champion-upgrade but instead a Special Character Herald, which deserves a special mention.
General Note Concerning the Daemonic Gifts: - The Winged Horror Gift being the singular exception, we have not suggested any removals of Gifts that are available in our current book. The majority of these Gifts have been more less edited however, mostly in terms of basic point cost but we have also changed the mechanics for some of them. Some of these Gifts will be mentioned specifically below (e.g. 'Siren Song', 'Master of Sorcery' etcetera) due their pivotal role in the Army.
New Gifts - This Board has made a handful of suggestions for New Gifts in each Mark-Section as well as for the 'Undivided Gifts'. Some Daemonic Characters have also gotten access to Gifts previously not available to them - such as the Keeper of Secrets getting access to "Unnatural Swiftness" as we have removed its present Always Strikes First 'innate' Special Rule. Most of these edits speak for themselves - in 'Appendix A' - and will not be dealt with in detail in these Designer's Notes.
Siren Song - There are two sides to this Gift in our current Army Book. On the one hand it is widely considered to be a crutch for Daemon players, while on the other hand the Siren Song Gift is rather integral to make a Slaanesh-heavy (or even a 'MonoSlaanesh') army function at a competitive level. Since it has been our ambition to make Slaanesh Daemons function without this crutch, it was only natural to effectively decrease the utility of the Siren Song Gift by some degree. Essentially, our version of this Gift is much harder to use as well as easier for the opponent to counter - while remaining the same cost as presently.
Master of Sorcery - While very suiting in terms of background, this Daemonic Gift is simply too cheap in points - specifically for the Herald of Tzeentch. Since it was the devout opinion of a majority of this Board that Tzeentch Daemons (of all Wizards!) should have access to Loremaster-abilities we spent alot of time creating a balanced set-up. This required fixing more than merely changing Master of Sorcery specifically, and our solution can be reviewed by surveying the [edited] Master of Sorcery Gift, the [new] Loremaster Gift, the [new] Arcane Knowledge Gift, as well as the [new] 'Universal Loremaster' Special Rule that we have given the Lord of Change.
The new 'dynamic' and cost of this new set-up of 'magic-access Gifts' should be apparent to the reader at this point. As the Herald of Tzeentch needs to get both the "Master of Sorcery" and the "Loremaster" Gift in order to get today's equivalent of "Master of Sorcery" (i.e. knowing a full BRB Lore) we have effectively doubled the cost of this upgrade from 25pts to 50pts. This increase of cost was the main point of changing this Gift. We see further improvements with this set-up however, as it grants a choice to the Daemon player between everything from merely knowing 2 spells from the Tzeentch Lore, to knowing a BRB Lore with one extra spell (Master of Sorcery + Arcane Knowledge), to spending its entire Gift Allowance in order to know a Full BRB Lore.
As has been mentioned, in order to make the cost appropriate also for the Lord of Change, it is no longer merely Loremaster of the Tzeentch Lore (as currently) but carries its status of Loremaster over to any Lore it may opt to choose thanks to the [new] "Master of Sorcery" Gift. Many of us felt that we really 'nailed it' in terms of fixing the issue of Master of Sorcery and we cannot wait to continue play testing it!
Slaanesh Leadership-based Gifts - Under this heading we are dealing with Gifts such as Tormentor, Allure of Slaanesh and Enrapturing Gaze in the Slaanesh Gift Section. The reasons for our editing with respect to these Gifts has been based largely on the new environment of 8th Edition (re-rolls due to Battle Standards) which have made some costs and mechanics inappropriate. Our findings were that while Temptator merely needed a halved cost, and Enrapturing Gaze only a minor tweak to the actual wording, the Allure of Slaanesh Gift simply needed a new mechanic (based on Initiative rather than Leadership) as well as a new cost.
Auras of the Gods - Amongst the various other Gifts we've added to the different Sections of Marks there's also the 'Auras' - which have been consistently added for each Daemonic Mark. Tzeentch- and Nurgle Characters thus getting access to improved Wardsave and Regeneration respectively needs no further explanation, while we allowed ourselves to do something a little different with the Aura of Khorne: The reason being (1) that the Gift Immortal Fury already exists (and Heralds already have Hatred innately), and (2) that Khorne ought to have a really cheap Gift just as the other 3 Marks. Thus every Mark now has Gifts ranging from 5pts and up.
The Aura of Slaanesh turned out to be identical to a certain Vampiric Power in the new Vampire Counts Army Book (released long after this project started) - but we sincerely felt that the Vampires were borrowing into the domain of Slaanesh Daemons (rather than the opposite) with respect to this and decided to keep the Aura of Slaanesh as we originally envisioned it. The reason being that Leadership-altering abilities is strongly associated with Slaanesh Daemons, and by neutering the strength of items such as The Great Icon of Despair and the Masque of Slaanesh, by at the same time creating a Slaanesh Gift that reduces Leadership we have shifted the power of Daemons to alter enemy Leadership further toward Slaanesh.
Death Strike - A Gift from the Khorne Section, borrowed from the world of Warhammer 40,000. This suggested addition prompted us to endow Heralds and Greater Daemons of Khorne with a value for Ballistic Skill. By the addition of this Gift every Mark of Daemons gets access to some sort of shooting/breath attack, which in our mind creates a good dynamic.
Awesome Strength - Coupled with a slight increase to its cost we suggest that the effect of this Gift be exempt from the normal rules (as per official Errata/FAQ) regarding Special Rules never interacting with Stomp/MonsterStomp. The alternative is to keep the increase to Strength (10) and forego the special case interaction with MonsterStomp - in which case the Gift should simply be conciderably cheaper.
Torment Blade - It's important to note that we wish to see the current wording of "Hand Weapon" removed from the description of this Gift - as it's caused confusion in the community on whether the Torment Blade is supposed to count as an 'extra hand weapon' in addition to the 'magical' effect of the Gift. 5pts is a good cost for the special effect, but does not seem to cover an extra attack as well (and certainly not for the Keeper of Secrets!).
Staff of Change - This Gift has also been revised, and most importantly it also carries the same wording of 'hand-weapon' in our current Army Book (like the Torment Blade) which should be removed in our opinion.
Introducing the Daemonic Icons - Our current Army Book clearly was not written with the intent of Daemonic Icons being 0-1 choices. This is however an explicit ruling from official Errata/FAQ and we've chosen to adhere to these changes. All the Icons in the present book have been kept (except the Battle Standard 'Banner of Hellfire') all though in most cases modified. We have also added 2 'unit-icons' to each Mark, as well as 1 Marked Battle Standard to each Mark (the latter being an option for the Battle Standard Bearer exclusively, but being stipulated by alignment of affiliation (Mark) between Battle Standard Bearer and the General of the Army - as already mentioned.
We also suggest different Allowances in terms of cost for units depending on whether they are Core (<35pts), or Special/Rare (<50pts) in order for a more interesting structure to be possible.
Undivided Battle Standards
The four (4) shared Battle Standards are allocated to the Battle Standard Bearer as in our current Army Book. In addition, but restricted by the choice of the Army's General, each Mark also has a '5th' Battle Standard Icon that may be carried by a Herald of corresponding Mark.
The origin of the Daemon Lores of Magic - Aside of the obvious edits prompted by 8th Edition (Signature Spells, Lore Attributes & 'Boosted' Spells) we have followed the guideline of building on the present Army Book in this Section just as in the rest of this project. Some spells have been changed dramatically but as a rule we have tried to keep as much as possible of the current Lores.
One spell has naturally been designated the status of Signature, and each Lore has also gotten a 7th spells just as all other 8th Edition Lores.
The biggest across the board change made to the Daemonic Lores of Magic has simply been to increase Casting Values for practically every spell - which, again, only seemed appropriate!
Above all, the general traits of our Daemonic Lores have been kept in mind here as Tzeentch (for example) portrays a lot of damage-spells with a high element of randomness, and Slaanesh naturally deals much in psychological effects.
Initial Results of Play Testing
From the handful of playtests that have been conducted at this point we are in good spirit about having broadly reached the goal of our endeavor: Our rendition of Daemons obviously still displays all the things that makes this Army unique, but at the same time the 'sharp edges' have been toned down considerably making many a match-up more interesting. The addition of upgrades for units presents the player with an abundance of tactical choices in list-building - where-as a too extensive use of upgrades will render the Daemon Army extremely expensive (thus weakened) as a whole. We will continue our play testing, but so far results have been very uplifting!
Once having gathered sufficient data, we indend on submitting a second package to Games Workshop detailing our finding in play testing and any changes to our revision of the Army Book that may have occured in this process.
White Dwarf Rules-Patch Amendments:
- As a response to the new units and general rules-changes implemented by Games Workshop (via the White Dwarf) in August 2012 we removed the following entries from our re-write:
Phantasm of Slaanesh 180pts
Phantasms, like Fiends, are variations of the dreaming presence of the Great Tempator Slaanesh. They can vary greatly in appearance, but invariably has the lower body of a multicolored serpent and the upper body reminding of a Fiend or Keeper/Large Daemonette.
M8, WS5, BS0, S5, T5, W4, I5, A5, Ld7
Unit type: Monster
Special rules: Armour piercing, Swiftstride, Terror, Sopoforic Musk, Divine Perfumes, Extatic Caress.
Divine Perfumes Breathe Weapon S2, -3 save mod, any unit that takes a wound from the attack is at -D3 WS & BS and I until the end of the next player turn. Roll once for all stats.
Extatic Caress = In each round of combat the Phantasm may forego its normal attacks (it may still Thunder Stomp and use its Divine Perfumes) and instead make a single attack against one enemy model in base contact. If this attack hits the Phantasm coils itself around the enemy model. Both the Phantasm and its victim roll a D6 and add their Strength. If the enemy model scores highest it breaks free immediately and may attack as normal that combat phase (providing it hasn't done so already). If the scores are equal or the Phantasm scores highest the enemy model takes a number of hits equal to the difference in scores (if any), wounding automatically with no armour saves allowed. In addition the enemy model may not attack this round of combat if it hasn't done so already. The victim is assumed to break free at the end of the phase before calculating Combat Resolution.
1. Sidewinder - +10pts Gains strider rule
2. Thrasher - +15pts May re-roll # of Stomps.
Seeker Chariot 130 points.
Stats same as current Mount-option + 'Scythed' and 'Armour Piercing' Special Rule
2 Daemonettes as Crew.
1. Rending Claws +10pts = 'as per Gift'
2. Aura of Slaanesh +25pts = 'as per Gift'
'Ascended', +10 points/model, Adds a third Seeker Steed to the Chariot - also optional upgrade for Character Mount Type Chariot, and note that unlike other chariots the Character replace both Daemonettes when Seeker Chariot is taken as Mount.
These units were swapped for the new Slaanesh Chariot Variants presented in the White Dwarf.
Lovely Fox Spirit
Member No.: 2,592
Joined: 1-November 10
Greater daemons definately do not need stubborn. Sure it is nasty when you have bad luck and your 500pts greater just melts away, but that is very unlikely thing to happen. Unbuffed Thirster for example deals avarage of 6,81 wounds with stomps on T4 Ws5 guys with As4 or lower. Add some gifts and you get even bigger number and considering that most greaters are very fast they are likely going to get the charge bonus which means avarage of 7-8 combat resolution. You really need some rotten luck there as opponent even needs 5+ to hit and 5 or 6+ to wound and still has to pass through armor and ward.
4+ wards on greater daemons would be quite darn powerful. Imagine killing GuO with that or KoS with spirit swallower, ouch. Only daemon I could give that would be lord of Change for the same reason that he gets better ward in 40k, he Changes forms, twists reality and thats why is hard to wound. He is also daemon with worst defences since he has low Ws and no ways of getting more protection like armor, ld tests, regeneration or stuff like that.
GuO already has his gift that makes him appear as a good and loving father and that is Nurgling infestation. Making him able to join bearers would be horrible points denial. Imagine steadfast train of plaguebearers with GuO and herald in the first rank. It would be almost impossible to break through.
Locus to share to all nearby models would be too powerful as you could get several heralds benefits with only one greater daemon. For example 2 bloodletter hordes would gain hatred if nearby with the thirster so you could save points with Khorne heralds and get Tzeentch heralds there to buff them even further. Alone it is not that bad, but if combined with rest of the army it gets bit nuts. It would be bit like Skarbrand but not as good. Well, maybe for 35pts upgrade might work or something like that.
After thinking lores overnight I came up with some ideas about Tzeentch lore:
Lore attribute: Illusions and insanity
Casters who pick lore of Tzeentch are masters of deceit and they seem to have no obvious weaknesses as their bodies have no real form. They get +1 to their ward save and transfer this to the unit too if heralds. (with this heralds of tzeentch would give 4+ ward to horrors and locus could be something different, like horrors gaining D3 power dice for their own use which would make them more viable unit again. LoC would get his 4+ ward, but ofcourse lose it if he would pick some other lore)
Signature spell, Flicker fire as it is
1. Boon of Tzeentch as it is
2. Glean magic with 8+ to cast
3. Gift of chaos as it is
4. Bolt of Change as it is
5. Changelings, 13+ casting value
Augment spell that could only be cast on horrors. Horrors copy WS, S, T, I and A from one unit it is fighting in close combat. Lasts for your turn. (again I used the random theme of Tzeentch here. It would make horrors viable fighting unit but against some armies this spell would be totally useless like skavens for example or prove only little use like with high elves. Not overpowered but definately fluffy and fun)
6. Tzeentch firestorm as 16+ casting value
Every model in the unit takes a Strenght D6 hit with armor saves taken normally. Horror is created for every 3 unsaved wound etc etc. (this way lore would have its own mass destruction spell that has very unique Tzeentch feel on it. Higher casting cost is for pink horrors could spam it too and it has potential on killing even elite units with S6).
I was thinking of daemonettes having S4, but after doing some math realised that it would be too good and I think I saw what GW was intending to make them to. With S4, 10 daemonettes compared to 10 letters would deal 5,33 wounds vs 4,89 against most foes and with ASF rerolls they would become even better. So then we would have faster and stronger Bloodletters that have no real weakness but superior herald choises. Instead I think GW had in mind to make daemonettes an unit that slaughters goblins, normal men and like, but they didnt balance them throughly. By giving them "Fight with additional rank" they would fit this role perfectly, by being better in combat against those foes than bloodletters but still being balanced with ASF rerolls and weaker against armored foes where letters on the other hand would do well.
For Plaguebearers I made the vomit S3 because automatic hits are quite powerful and if combined with banner of seeping decay it would become too powerful if the vomit did more damage. Imagine 30 S3 hits with rerolls, it is quite nice already.
Screamers in units of 3 are quite ok, but in bigger groups they cost way too much and are too easy to kill, thus I suggested T4 or points reduction.
About those daemons that were left off. Pleasureseekers were daemonettes riding on a "titwyrm", the one you can get with chaos mortal champion. Changebringers were flamers on discs and Plagueriders were bearers riding on a plaguebeasts. Pleasureseeker is almost identical to what fiends are now, but they could reintroduce them something like "elite fiends" or single model unit or even as a herald choise.
I would put chariots here because in special choises one could use 50% of points on them and make almost full chariot army. Being on rare choises you would be limited on picking too many and would have to choose between other equally good rares. You could however make very intresting combinations with chariots supporting your core troops for example.
By the way, long writings like in this thread are really intresting and fun. This is how forums should be, keep it going =)
The Eternal Bloodletter
Member No.: 2,658
Joined: 24-January 11
|QUOTE (LAV-Kitsune- @ Jan 28 2011, 06:35 AM)|
By the way, long writings like in this thread are really intresting and fun. This is how forums should be, keep it going =)
Agreed. This is the sort of substantial brainstorming that really entertains.
My comments, following your mark Kitsune.
Stubborn is too powerfull even a Daemon-lover like myself can see that. There need to be some "holes" that the opponants can use to have a chance. A Stubborn Thirster would be able to front-charge almost anything and just send it running by round 4. It would have cost like 700 points vanilla and with the new percentage restrictions for army-building I don't think that's viable.
Wardsave. I only EVER meant that the LoC should have a 4+ WardSave. I maintain this. Either it gets 4+ Ward or it should be substantially cheaper - because well right now it's just too easy to remove.
You're probably right about the GoU being too powerfull in a steadfast-bus. Then again, all you need is one Purple Sun and *poff* that GoU is all by his lonesome again.
So you got me like half-convinced here I must say, because the basic concept (like I said before) has a very strong appeal beyond conciderations for game-play.
I Skarbrand really any good to begin with? I don't use SC's but Skarbrand never stood out as competative.. Unless you play against Dark Elves of course.. hehe Then I might have used him.
Anyways, about the "Locos for Greater Daemons" issue I think we can argue back and forth really. Sure, you are right about a Bloodthirster being able to boost two Bloodletter Hordes thus saving you the hero points for Tzeentch heralds with Light/Beasts Lores that makes the Bloodletters even crazier. On the other hand, I still don't buy the "competative" part of paying ~500 points for a Thirster that just stands on the front-line. My point is that you'll still want that guy flying around causing havoc while the Hordes are nearing the enemy - the Locus would be more of circumstantial bonus for whenever the Thirster charges into an already ongoing battle where the Letter-Herald has been struck down.
No big deal. My main issue with Greater Daemons, and yes it is a minor boost but not a crazy one I think, is that some of their Gifts should be removed from their "Gift-choices" and simply insterted into their vanilla Cost. Like "Re-rolling hits" for Bloodthirster - just increase his point-cost and let him buy something "less obvious" for those 25 points. And while you're at it increase his pointcost by 50 (not only 25!) so as to remedy some of the worst whining.
Same thing with the GoU. It should, conceptually, have Regen. I am less concerned about the cost for this. Just want the rules to "feel right".
Lore Attribute, New Spells Etc.
Good thinking there as usual man! I only really have ONE issue that I really feel I must go against and that's still concerning The Firestorm. Your "version" is not nasty enough in my humble opinion. My suggestion is more like this:
Tzeentch Firestorm, Casting value: ~18+
Every model in unit takes a D6+2 Strength Flaming Hit (roll only once for the Strength Value, of course) with normal saves allowed, for every wound (or, at the very least, every Second wound) caused a Horror is created blablabla. Tzeentch Firestorm can also be cast on ~28+ in which case the range is increased to 48".
Something like that.. Come on Kitsune! hehe This is the Mega Spell of the Mega Lore of the Mega Magic Daemon Lord of Mysteries we're talking about.. It's gotta at least compare to the Purple Sun, Dweller's, etc.
Generally speaking I find your level-headed approach invaluable for actually having a discussion because you're right I tend to let my enthusiasm get the better of me - but sometimes I must say I think you're being a little too careful. Please don't take this the wrong way, I know I'm a charlatan just shooting from my hip whereas you make a more scentific evaluation of things, but still, in the case of Tzeentch Firestorm I say (again, mostly a conceptual standpoint) that it must/should be set in relation to the nuke-spells of the BrB lores.
Daemonettes. Your reasoning seems really solid and balanced here.
Pleaguebearers. Is that vomit attack supposed to be a breathe-weapon (one use only) or more like trolls can vomit as much as they want? In the latter case S3 is fine, if it is one use only I'd say slap on S4 and let it become that "fist in the face" the opponant knows he's got to ride out when he's failed to Purple-Nuke them.
As I've said earlier I am completely ok with giving them T4. It would also work just fine to drop them like ten points and just leave it at that. I had one idea of my own about them that I think got lost in the haze with my original post that I am gonna mention again because it would be really interesting to see what you're educated thoughts are:
Let the Toughness and point cost remain the same. But change their Slashing Attacks to "One hit per rank/file" instead of just one hit per unit. Do you follow my reasoning? - A Screamer passing over a horde from the side would cause 10 hits, for example.
They would be just as easy to remove, only whenever the enemy actually fails to remove them they will actually Do Some Damage. Because right now they just don't have Any edge at all - and frankly even if they did have T4 I'm not overly convinced they'd be that much better.. Unless you slap on that Furius Charge bit you mentioned earlier so that they can at least hunt warmachines.
Chariots and whether they should be Rare or Special.
Your argument for not having them as Special is my argument for having them as Special. hehe - If someone converts enough chariots to make an "all chariot" DoC army then more power to him, I say.
Ok seriously, maybe you're right. But I think it'd meam that well at least Beasts of Nurgle might have to move to the Special Section (not that I would use them even as a Core choice under current conditions.. or well.. as a Core choice maybe I would actually but..)
Lovely Fox Spirit
Member No.: 2,592
Joined: 1-November 10
This will be bit shorter comment, but lets get started. About GuO and steadfast buss: not every army will have lore of death or be able to roll purple sun it or cast it freely with irresistable force. Would you pick lore of death against daemons if you dont know what your facing? Letters being I4 and most of the characters having high stats and even magic resistance would make lore of death quite poor choise and you would more likely pick something else.
We do not play spacial characters either for most of the time, but sometimes we get crazy and just test them for laughs. Scabard is quite insane to be honest. Have him and your Nurgle guys will reroll hits (more poisons), you do not need khorne heralds, fiends will become insane and so on and ofcourse he has a breath weapon. About greaters giving locus to nearby units you are right for me being bit too careful there. Being extra careful is usually better when making rules and stuff, but this subject I am not entirely sure and some game testing might give good hints on how it works.
Tzeentch firestorm as I suggested would already be powerful. Do not forget that it summons magic casting daemons and possibility of S6 hits to every model can sweep even a chosen horde at ease and thats something none of the other mass destructions do. Also imagine that you deal 50 S4 hits on empire halberdiers for example. Thats avarage of 33 kills and 11 horrors behind or next to it. Those new horrors would channel dice, be able to cast spells can even rear charge and remove rank bonuses. On S5 or 6 you would cause 40 kills and create 13 horrors. It would have chance of being extremely potent mass destruction but also could only inflict some S1 hits, and since it allows all saves heavy armor, wards and magic resistance could still help there and balance it out. Number of kills with S4 are afterall quite darn good for 16+ spell if you compare it to dwellers or purple sun for example where for example dwellers would likely kill half of the halberdiers which is less than firestorm at S4.
I was thinking that Nurgle plaguebearers would use their vomit like trolls, so S3 would be fit. I would be tempted to lower points cost of the screamers but that might break the low in numbers elite army theme a bit, so I would instead buff their skills. Doing hits on ranks would be too good unfortunately, as even one screamer could deal 5+ S5 hits on a normal block, and with 6 screamers it would come just silly. Considering their fluff they could have a rule like "preying the weak" that would make them deal D3 S5-7 hits (might be bit too tough) on the foes that have less numbers than screamer unit. This would make them ideal war machine hunters, but still very easy to kill and still expensive in points.
Chariots would in my opinion fit in the rare section, as most of the fast and hard hitting choises are there already. Making them special choises would mean that you could spend 25% on rare fast choises like fiends and ~50% on special and herald chariots to make army where everything moves 10" or more and hits lick bricks. That would be pure point and click army where opponent would rarely have time to counter anything thanks to dazzling speed of the daemons.
The Eternal Bloodletter
Member No.: 2,658
Joined: 24-January 11
|QUOTE (Depravity @ Jan 28 2011, 09:47 AM)|
| In order to create magic casting horrors, the firestorm need to inflict 18 wounds (6 spawned)...ld perhaps solve the issue with them as the weakest core. |
You're right: The CURRENT Tzeentch Firestorm can't create a magic-casting unit AT ALL. It, by definition, can never happen since the number of hits inflicted is finite (not any 8th Ed "one hit per model in unit" shennanigans) and since you create a New Unit every time you cast it - so all you get is a bunch of small Horror-units that can't negate ranks, can't cast spells, and are worth 50 victory points to the enemy even though you usually have like one or two (if you're lucky) horrors being created from casting the spell.
Me and Kitsune have been talking about how this spell should be turned into a Real destruction spell - an issue where, as usual, Kitsune is alot more moderate than I am..
I want it to be a "remove your deathstar from the table Now, please" spell.
Kitsune thinks half is enough.
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