so its looking like some of the more hardcore tournaments around here are taking the stance that DoC BSB's force the re-roll in the event of a failed instability test. i'm not starting this thread to argue the semantics of it (although apparently "can" =/= "may" <_< ), but in light of this, it makes taking a BSB (and having him within 12" of GDs in dicey combats) a huge liability. so i was thinking about the merit of the stubborn banner in this environment.

most of the discussion of this banner centers on pts denial style lists with big nurgling units with infestation and lots of chaff units etc., but i was actually thinking that having the banner in the list would really open up some options with the greater daemons and their particularly aggressive use, as theoretically, taking static combat res out of the equation is likely to change the whole way they can be used. i'm thinking something along the following lines:

bloodthirster w/ toys

herald of khorne
toys

herald of tzeentch
spell breaker

herald of tzeentch bsb
stubborn banner

30 BL's with FC

30 horrors with standard, muso, sorcery if i have the pts?

5 furies

standard BMaynard rare section:

bloodcrusher

bloodcrusher

fiend

fiend

6 flamers (will probably break into 2x3 for the extra drop, but keeping it 6 strong gives me a place to bail the BSB into should things get hairy)

so the idea is that the character assassin thirster can fly in and kill generals, BSBs, level 4s etc. conga reform shenanigans can pretty much guarantee the BSB within 12" so the BT can allocate all attacks to the target (with no fear of enemy static CR) and proceed to eat the unit. BL horde does what it does, chaff keeps the enemy off the horrors while Billy and co. get pts. the horror block is about 800 pts so it has to be protected at all costs. however, it is worth noting that the stubborn flag opens up some dastardly opportunities for conga lining and other stupidity- like reforming 2 wide to face an incoming threat, standard, muso up front keeping the heralds safe, and 4+ ward to soak damage until the thirster/crushers/whatever can come in to save the day. granted the whole mess involves some pretty dirty tricks but nothing illegal, but hey lets face it, they're asking for it by making the BSB re-roll a hindrance when we pay 25 pts for it.

anyway, i've been kicking around the list idea for a while now, what do you guys think?

BEAR IN MIND: the list is built according to ETC rules, hence no MoS (couldn't find a lore i liked only getting 2 spells), 0-1 gifts, and no gifts for the BSB if the banner is 50pts< (the choice for a tzeentch bsb in horror block). i plan to test the list in an upcoming tournament (ETC comp :angry: ), and if it pans out, i might take it to crossroads gt instead of the double bletter GUO list hat i'm currently running. if i do that, BSB is still restricted to no gifts but i do get full master of sorcery, so i'm open to lore suggestions for that one (i'm thinking shadow maybe? not sure, i don't use it much).

**** Maynard...

I'm sorry, but I must.. Just can't.. Hold it in anymore..

I don't understand why you put up with it.
I mean: All of it.
Those 0-1 Gift restrictions.. All that arbitrary posh crap that you agree to play by.

And now this.. BSB forcing re-rolls for Instability.. They do realize you're basically better of not taking a BSB then, right? These people are the definition of douches I tell you.

I'm being a Child here. Kind of. I know. And you didn't want this thread to even be about this. But you just put in the final drop for me.. haha

Guess I've been spending too much on Warseer again, or something..

Best of luck beating them, of course, despite having one arm unfairly tighed behind your back. I'll shut up now.

if i could like a post... i would, because i'm in the same boat as daemonreign here.

It's entirely unfair these systems you enter maynard, I don't know why you do it to yourself lol

as for a plan... under the restrictions, is could be a very powerful tool, and it wont be expected that's for sure... but as I have zero experience in this hardcore tourneys you go to... you're probably better getting advice from the likes of LAV_kitsune or somebody else who goes to them

nah, i already know what he'll say- drop the banner completely and use the points for master of sorcery light... and more bloodletters... and less daemonettes....



:D

and actually, i figured the Daemonreign-esque fluff bunnies ( :P ) were the one's who likely used the banner the most so i'm very interested in their opinions as well. i'm venturing into the unknown here, so please don't think that because you're not a tournament gamer, your insight is invalid. i already know that my own clubmates (all hardcore tournament gamers; our skaven player was just asked to captain the US ETC team after we crushed em in their own team tourney ha ha!) will tell me that its a stupid idea and ask where my sundering banner is, thats why i'm asking you guys :P

I haven't used the Stubborn-flag predominantly in my games and this is mostly because it's one of the few items that my friends Think is down right nasty when 'comboed' with the other Daemonic traits.

I Think it's a good flag, despite us fluff-bunnies playing games that dwarves those ECT style skirmishes. My Point being that the Stubborn-bubble ought to be even more nasty in that Environment since you can get a much bigger proportion of your force within its circumference.

Your theory on the Stubborn Thirster charging head-on into units that would otherwise pop it with combat rez is exactly how it works of course - but if you want to be really really evil I'd say Spirit Swallower Keeper or Balesword GUO is just a tad more reliable (because they just won't die, period.)

Now that let's you use your combat lord with the same full-frontal carelessness that your opponants will only expect from 1 (max 2) hordes of Bloodletters - so effectively it should give you quite the edge when concidered in a bubble.

And let's not forget that any chaff you keep within that Stubborn "bubble" will work pretty much on the same premise - suddenly one of those single crushers/fiends can not only derail a steadfast block of rank&file troopers, but they'll be quite likely to stand there grinding for a round or two of combat Before going down.

That said, the Great Icon of Despair is still better simply by virtue of being grossely undercosted. Sundering is good too, I'd agree, and probably a bit better in harcore Environments simply because you guys run a lot more math in your heads Before Rolling those Power/Dispel Dice.

In the end, while neiter is invalid, our experiences of Warhammer are from two extreme ends of the spectrum. But it would be cool to see you surprice the crap out of folks with the Stubborn flag... although the only result is that it might be banned next year. ;)

well coming from a more casual player.... well i'll enter tourneys as long as the restrictions arent as harsh.

but, your basically being pushed into finding something new and hasnt been tried before... and well... your on with a winner here... not that it is a sure win list, far from it, but its a list people wont be expecting... dirty dirty tools though.

I would playtest it with a proxy (but i see you've already bought that bloodthirster) before commiting

It seems you really want to play this list, almost determined too... so give it a go

OK, I'll resist my usual raging over silly attempts to squirrel away benefits from daemons, and stick to the issue (although everything DReign said about it holds true for me).

I've been staring at this banner for a while, and just haven't had the heart to do it to my opponents yet. I really believe it is without question the most broken banner in our book, possibly most overpowered item out of the lot. (My advice in 7th to remedy the daemon book was to fix horrors and this banner, and that's it)

The trick to this one is bringing stuff that doesn't die easily. Back come the plaguebearers, in comes a greater daemon (anything but a LoC in my opinion. A self-healing Kipper would be disgusting, as would any version of a GUO or a 'thirster. I've actually played the 'thirster once with this one, and watching him wade through Ironbreakers was absurd)

Here's a list of stuff I reckon rocks with this banner:

- Greater Daemons
- single beasts of Nurgle
- Flesh Hounds
- plaguebearers
- small interference daemonette units

Plus of course the usual backbone of infatry, maybe one 'letter unit, although as seen above I prefer the Nurgle option. This banner essentially turns a tightly-played daemon army's instability into unbreakable, which is pure gold in my books.

-und_ed

This is definately my style! My friends group have been annoying the VC player all the time chanting: "Crumble, crumble yum yum"

How cool would it be to have them play against me the first time thinking I'll die from instability the same way as he crumbled and then telling them I have taken this banner.

It is expensive though at the cost of 10 bloodletters.

In a tournament I'd take this banner and a spirit swallowering Kipper. I should imagine it would completely rock with a plaguebearer tarpit, but honestly anything would be incredible.

Could you put this banner on a herald of slaanesh mounted on a steed in a unit of seekers for look out sir? You could move him around the table away from danger and try to position him where he could do the most good. It should be cheaper than a unit of horrors. Just a thought. Sorry about all the restrictions you have to deal with.

lol, DReign, you crack me up :D i toally agree with you that the restrictions are rather stupid and reek of someone's personal bitterness in getting their ass handed to them by DoC one too many times, but i think a large part of it is i like to show up with an army built to the ridiculous, arbitrary criteria they've set, and still kick ass. i also look at each new restriction as a challenge, i love coming up with stealthy mean lists that fly under the radar so to speak.

this is great advice, maybe after a few test runs i'll invest in some plague toads to run as beasts of nurgle. they would simply never die with this flag...

i plan on trying each other combat greaters, and i suspect the keeper will be a winner. i'm going to go with the BT first though, as there are 2 extremely good players dominating the local scene right now, one has a brutal all herald list and the other has a mean VC list. i think the BT will do better against both but the kipper is definitely my go to girl.

i've actually had great success with the LD banner with this setup. the thing i like about the horrors is that they can be conga'ed to make a ridiculous tarpit and its a bit safer for the banner. if i decide to include a lot of M10 stuff in army, i might go for the seeker bsb, but as it stands, in the initial test run, durability is the name of the game for me at least.

thanks for the opinions guys, i'm really excited to try this out.

Yeah sorry for going off in a wild rant Maynard. I understand what you're saying and don't get me wrong: I do respect your perspective but the part about the BSB forcing re-rolls just crosses a line with me:

It's one thing to impose more or less arbitrary restrictions. Like the 0-1 Gifts. At least you know what's going on there, and the argument is about whether or not it's called for or not.

But the issue with the BSB.. That's just plain cheating and willfull misunderstanding - if you see what I am getting at here..

So I guess that's what set me off this time. :) Sorry..

But yeah I get that it's a challange! I think from the little tidbits you've told of your gaming environment I can roughly fathom the 'competative mindset' of you and your friends - and that thrills and cool stuff that comes with that.

The only thing that tints my glasses, so to speak, are all the non-Daemon competative players who take these restrictions as proof that restrictions are needed. The underlying assumption, or accusation really, being that people who play without them arn't really.. you know.. worth being taken seriously.

This is not about You, though.. It's more the general subject getting my flak because stuff i've had thrown at me at places like Warseer.

maynard, would it be possible for you to be my guinea pig and go a soft ld bomb list? Ld bomb lists and then charge into the biggest baddest dude unit and steal their general via Temptator?

Lol, I remember that thread dreign.

i hear you, i don't bother even visiting anymore. the only forum on that site with anything worth reading is the M,P&T forum.

i might try it a couple times but i don't think i could be persuaded to actually take that gift to a tournament lol. most are open list and no one around here runs combat lords these days anyway, barring us and VC. O&G as well i guess, but that matchup is hard enough for daemons even without untried and untested tactics.

What I think would be broken are larger units of stubborn furies with a greater daemon around. 10-15 furies in conga line, stubborn on a 9, could turn a unit's facing and hold them up a good while. They can get wherever they need to be quick. flank charge in with conga lines!

MSU daemonettes would work well also. Fast and just enough bodies.

Life magic would be they way to points denial also.. up the toughness of the stubborn units and heal up the thirster or GUO.

I wouldnt do it though, as it is 10 demons worth of points, and it is a plan based on losing combats. The -2Ld banner is cheaper, and based on a plan of winning.. more my style. I just think with elite troops you dont have the bodies to suffer the long grinds, except plague bearers and their Init is too big a risk with big spells.

forgive my ignorance but how exactly do units of 10-15 furies and 10 daemonettes get pts?

i'm not really going for a pts denial list though. as a matter of fact, the whole idea revolves around the banner facilitating agressive play with a greater daemon rather than the typical pts denial mentality that accompanies the banner. recall that i posted the following in the OP:

my theory is actually proposing a very active game that i don't really think would be helped by life magic at all. especially once you consider that the list is initially being designed to compete in ETC environment where life is worthless to begin with.

well to be fair, i think the phrase "plan based on losing combats" is a rather gross oversimplification. i would use the phrase "plan based on taking enemy static res out of the equation," i.e. the most aggressive play possible.

i think its worth mentioning that PB aren't really a risk at all since death and shadow spells are capped at 4 dice per cast. and instead of just retyping my original thoughts, i'll just copy the bit from the OP that i think best addresses these concerns-

so as you can see, the whole plan is much, much more proactive than the "long grind" that you're envisioning. i'm under the impression that we're thinking of totally different styles of play here, my idea is not a pts denial strategy at all. in fact, this is the typical "standard of chaos glory" pitfall that i was looking to avoid.

My main concern with the list is that your susceptible to magic, not direct damage or magic missiles, but with only a level 2 and no Great Standard of Sundering. the main concern is enemy augments/hex's... I know bloodletters rock in combat, but how much would they rock if the enemy your rushing towards suddenly has +4T or other some such... for example how would you deal with a unit of white lions, if the enemy blasts your chaff away?

lol, are you trying to trick me zhambah? if the white lions have +4T, the HE are rocking life magic and would have no way of blasting my chaff ;)

and the magic doesn't bother me to be honest, i've played a lot of games with only level 2's, and i even went to the onslaught GT with a level 2 and no scroll. i usually just pick the one spell that can really ruin me and throw everything at it and let everything else through.

thats part of the reason that i chose the BT as the greater daemon, character assassination is going to be one of my main vehicles for getting pts. the stubborn banner will let me allocate all of the attacks to the character and not worry about losing the combat.

all theory though, we'll have to see next week when testing starts.

so what are you thinking about giving billy then?

Sorry I didn't get make myself clear, actually re-reading it I must of combined the two and not thinking it through

First scenario was augments and hex's to make the enemy better than bloodletters in combat.

And what do you do against a unit that's already than bloodletters in combat, such as white lions... with dps spells to blast away your chaff so they can get the match up they want...

Sorry I'm a bit of a numpty at times

You've pretty much answered what you're going to do against an augment force, throw all dice at 1 spell... what happens if they have 2... or... heaven forbid, more!

well first off, let me make something clear: i think white lions vs BL's is a lost cause. during deployment, i do everything i can to make sure that this matchup does NOT happen. if for some reason it is unavoidable, i do what i can to have some units nearby who can clean up what remains of the white lions after i lose the bloodletters so that its at least a 1 for 1 swap. fiends do a nice job of this if you can get them in the flank. the unit will be bled dry and once you take away their re-rolls to hit, the fiend's ward, S4 and stomp can get you the pts but you'll need at least 2 (or a crusher). if my bloodletter unit gets stuck in combat with the white lions and they start throwing augments into it... i let em. there's no point in bothering in my experience. pretty simple, if the WL get into the BL, i go into emergency damage control mode and try to contain the problem.

if i can identify that this matchup will happen a turn or 2 in advance, the WL become the target of every ranged threat i can get my hands on. if i can take the unit down to 15-18, the BL's ward can actually see them come out on top in that one with a bit of luck.

as far as blasting my chaff? thats much easier said than done, if you'll remember from my ETC list thread, i put A LOT of thought into where they go and what can threaten them. on occasion i do make stupid mistakes that cost me, i played a game against a fellow named brian moyer in the last tourney i went to where i gave up a stupid charge into a fiend and doubled my stupidity with an easy overrun into a crusher. usually when something like that happens i end up losing the game.

my theory on chaff is that your opponent doesn't kill it, you let it die. i try to keep this in mind as i play, and if you decide when your chaff dies, you win. and if they do, you lose.

typically they will only have access to one augment/hex that will completely screw you. that one gets the dice and i usually eat the others. that being said, i think it should be mentioned that at +3 to dispel, 3 channels, and a spell breaker, i have much more magic defense than some armies i've run. the scroll really helps in that critical turn as well, as a general rule i don't let myself use the scroll until the first "must use" event has passed and i've been faced with the second (which is nearly always the more dire of the two anyway!).

And for billy I'm thinking standard character killer, obsidian armor, rerolls, killing blow

EDIT: i really understand the arguments for the GUO and the keeper, but i think the BT may be better for my local environment. several of the top players are running lists that are more vulnerable to a thirster than the other GDs, so i think i'm going to want him when i cross paths with these lists.

I was thinking about the survivability of your BSB. I know you are not planning on putting the HoT in close combat. However, have you considered a unit plaguebearers lead by a HoN with level 1? The toughness 5 and regeneration along with miasma of pestilence should keep him around until the game's end. The PB unit I feel is a better combat unit as well. You would miss the +3 to dispell and Bolt of Change from the Horrors though. Just throwing out ideas. Good luck in the tournament.

For the ld bomb list maynard, while I did mention Temptator, I was more thinking along the lines of Enrapturing and Allure (and possibly Torment blade). This coupled with -2 or possibly -3 (HoT with Death?) LD and Phantasmagoria would render your KoS functionally immortal.
Remember, if he declares an attack against the Kipper with Allure, yet fails, he can't then decide to use those attacks on some other random model in base contact.
Can temptator be used against unit champions? I do not have the book with me at the moment to check :(

i have actually considered this option and it comes back to the bloodthirster as my choice of greater daemon. i really think that the horror block is the way to go with billy for the extra magic defense, but also for the ranged capability. when i try the banner with the keeper or GUO, i'll bring the plaguebearers, because making that switch will shift the way the list works to a slower paced grind-style (or at least it does in my mind's eye). i'm working on getting some practice games this week so i can see if the idea actually works like i envision, could be that this whole idea is rubbish :P

yeah i see what you mean, but thats a huge investment to make your keeper unkillable. and we all know that we have a guaranteed immortal keeper because she can just buy spirit swallower instead. it just feels like we're trying to "force" the gifts to work, rather than finding an undiscovered gem. a lot like my seeker project to be honest. further, no matter how bad you nerf someone's LD, there's still the chance that they'll pass the LD tests.

i'll still try it though, i hate it when someone gets talked out of trying something by the interwebz. thats why i don't give list advice on warseer anymore, my "take what you want, your play will win your games more than your list" approach is not very well received lol.

alas it cannot, they are not characters.

"forgive my ignorance but how exactly do units of 10-15 furies and 10 daemonettes get pts?"

A bunch of furies in conga line with a thirster's Ld nearby can hold up a unit of white lions or other nastiness. They won't directly score points without a soft target around. They may prevent the thirster from getting flank charged. Im envisioning the thirster hits a undead bunker and gets challenged out.. then flank charged, challenged out indefinitely as the VC keep raising back the 2 champs.

I realize life magic is nerfed by you only getting 2 spells. I think it's benefit is healing the thirster with the lore attribute. Worst case you are casting a worthless spell like earthblood to get a wound back on Billy. I think this facilitates aggressive play in the same manner as the standard.

The counters to your character assassination I would expect are:
Units in buildings
Units conga line so characters are in 2nd rank
Bunker units 1" behind another unit so there is no room for Billy to land.
Units that can kill a thirster in combat used as a bunker (few)

I'm not trying to say your plan is bad by any means, just thinking aloud.

Speaking from the perspective of a 'fluff-bunny' I'd advice against any strategy that involves stuff like 'conga-lines'.

No offense Colonel. :)

your followup explanation makes a lot of sense, i think we are on the same page about several things. one thing i would like to point out is that while the character assassination is an integral part of the strategy, its not going to be the end all, be all of course. i'm not going to focus on the enemy's level 4 and then get tunnel vision towards killing him with the thirster, its more or less something that will be done when the opportunity presents itself. i'm going to try to come up with the pts to upgrade at least one of the crushers to a champ, that should create some interesting opportunities.

I ran the list through excel and came up with 2398 points. I used Obsidian Armour, Axe of Khorne, and Immortal Fury on Bloodthirster and Firestorm Blade and Armour of Khorne on Herald of Khorne. So, if you drop the FSB off the HoK you would have plenty of space under the cap to make one of those crushers into a champion. That is of course if I did it right.

I'm still struggling to understand why you would want to upgrade a crusher to a champ... 20 pts for one attack seems absurdly overpriced to me, and challenges are a poor idea for character assassination since the enemy just declines and his character hides in the back, all safe and snug.

What am I missing?

-und_ed

envision the following scenario:

my opponent has a horde of 40 ghouls with a ghast and his fully kitted strigoi lord in the unit. i charge the BT in so he's in base contact with the vampire. lets say for the sake of argument that my opponent is smart and positions his champ and vampire in the unit in such a way that the thirster can't be in contact with them both. he then challenges out the thirster with the ghast, which pulls him away from the vampire. after killing the champ, the BT is no longer in b2b with the vampire and so has to grind through the entire unit to kill him.

having a crusher champ in the combat means challenging won't save the vampire lord.

Ah. Kinda niche, but I see the use.

I still don't rate it's worth the 20 points, though.

-und_ed

Have you tried it?

You didn't rate the msu list either as I recall :P

lol.

I still don't, but it was fun while it lasted.

-und_ed

actually the more i think about it, the less "niche" i think it is. the ability to absorb a challenge is useful against any unit that both bunkers a character and has a unit champ. looking at the lists of the last tourney i went to, this condition was met in nearly every army. and of course there is the matter of the extra WS 5, S6 KB attack. thats about as universally useful as anything i can think of. in fact i can hardly think of a scenario that i put my crushers in where the extra attack wouldn't be useful with the exception of redirecting of course. making a model 90 pts pretty much takes that off the table but even a naked crusher is too expensive for that anyway.

i think your reservation may come from the fact that protecting 90 pts behind 2 wounds is a bit risky. i'm inclined to agree with this, so i'm going to try the idea without the champ upgrades initially, and if enemy champs become a consistent problem, i'll upgrade one of the crushers.

If you're consistently charging greater daemons into units with characters + champs, then I can see the value. As far as a normal herald goes, I'm quite happy to simply decline the challenge and be done with in most cases.

You're right about the frailty problem - 90 points behind 2 T4 wounds really seems iffy to me - for the price of upgrading two solo crushers, I get an extra flamer, flesh hound or three infantry models. It's a very easy equation for me on those grounds.

Of course, I led the charge to leaving champions at home in my area, and the general masses have followed suit (5 units, no champs, in new books that's 50 points to play with... you can do a lot with that kind of savings). This means I don't face many characters + champions in enemy armies.

-und_ed

In most tourney environments unit champs are taken. Greater daemons cant refuse the challenge and are often stuck losing combat due to static res. I personally have had fun with a Herald of Tzeentch with flying and lore of beasts.. you can charge him in along with the thirster to accept a ghast challenge, and if you are lucky he can transform into a hydra! You just need the thirster to carry the spell breaker.

About the ghast pulling the thirster out of base contact with the vamp lord.. In the rulebook FAQ there is this line:
Page 55 – Reforming From Victory
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to “A
combat reform is essentially a standard reform (page 14), save
for the fact that the centre point of the reformed unit does not
have to stay in the same place.”

Due to this it is played on the west coast tourney scene that you can combat reform to change the center of your unit.. to slide over to touch that vamp lord or other useful slides, as long as the reform isn't reducing the number of models in contact.