Hello -

I'm new to Daemons, and am preparing for a tournament.

Please critique my current list - and perhaps any thoughts as to tactics for the troop choices. I have some ideas, but would like your thoughts - perhaps this is strong against some lists I'm not expecting, and I know that there is not much direct magic defense.

Thanks! :evil:

Total Roster Cost: 2192

General - Herald of Khorne
1 Firestorm Blade
1 Armour of Khorne

Herald of Khorne
1 Herald of Khorne (Battle Standard Bearer)
1 Firestorm Blade
1 Armour of Khorne

Daemon Prince
1 Immortal Fury
1 Iridescent Corona
1 Soul Hunger


6 Flamers of Tzeentch


4 Fiends of Slaanesh


27 Bloodletters of Khorne, + Musician Mus + Standard Bearer Std
1 Bloodreaper

27 Bloodletters of Khorne, + Musician Mus + Standard Bearer Std
1 Bloodreaper

and
10 Flesh Hounds of Khorne

(edited to read easier)

Grendel ~

Hello -

So I played my list a second time last night. The first was against my friends VC and he conceded as it was very late that game, but didn't see a whole lot I could modify. He's still rather new to WHFB, so as we prep for the Tourny in November we're getting in the practice of playing the games and going through the routine of figuring out all our rules.

So last night I played an EPIC game against a OK army; personally requesting the worst win at all costs, "make a list that makes you throw up in your mouth it's so broken" list.

My new buddy came to the table with a tourney list he played at a previous Tourney, and with an AWESOME and friendly attitude.

He came with no magic, and *some* shooting; a unit of 4 mournfangs, and a unit of 6 of those mercenary poison pistol shooters.

He grossly underestimated my Fiends - which were a tremendous unit.

My Herald-less unit of Bloodletters survived a few rounds against one of his Mournfang - and when my Daemon Prince was able to charge in finally won the combat!

Big (OBVIOUS) OK lesson #1 - It's ALWAYS better to charge Ogre units than to receive.

Rule #2 - Caveat to #1 - That is, unless you want to receive. Then it's better to receive.

Rule #3 - General rule - It's good to bring units to deal with Chaff (i.e. Gnoblars).

His recommendation was bringing Furies, and also maybe breaking up my Flesh Hounds into two units.

My question, or thought is - How should I be using my Flesh Hounds. It's an awful expensive unit to be chasing Chaff around; and although fun, I stood a better chance if they had supported some of the pit fights the Bloodletters were in.

So, what's better for Chaff? Daemonettes (10?) Furies?

My thoughts are - every unit should have a Primary and Secondary purpose, i.e.:

Bloodletters - 1. Anvil, 2. Hammer
Fiends - 1. Hammer, 2. Interception (or a FAST hammer to threaten his backfield)
Daemon - 1. Hammer to the Bloodletters
Flesh Hounds - 1. Hammer
Flamers 1. Fire Support, or Influencing the battle pathways, 2. Possible anvil

Etc.

So my revised list looks like this for now:

1 Daemon Prince,
1 Soul Hunger
1 Immortal Fury
1 Iridescent Corona

1 Herald of Khorne, 140 pts (General);
1 Firestorm Blade
1 Armour of Khorne

1 Herald of Khorne (Battle Standard Bearer),
1 Firestorm Blade
1 Armour of Khorne

6 Flamers of Tzeentch,

4 Fiends of Slaanesh,

2x Bloodletters of Khorne (25)
Full command

Flesh Hounds of Khorne (6)

Seekers of Slaanesh (6)
5 Seekers of Slaanesh (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std
1 Alluress (Hand Weapon; Swiftstride)
1 Siren Standard

I like your list overall. A few small changes:

1. I don't like Daemon Princes. For 75 points more than your build you get a naked Bloodthirster, which is infinitely better and has so much more potential due to gifts. I would recommend Immortal Fury, a Spellbreaker and Armour of Khorne. Another decent alternative is a Keeper of Secrets, although you're going to need ~50 points of gifts to make her worthwhile whereas the Bloodthirster is still awesome naked.

2. You want magic. A MoS HoT, with either Wings or a Spellbreaker depending on how confident you are as to protecting it, is a massively efficient buy. I would go with Light for your list.

3. Since the above changes are ~250-300 more points, you'll need to drop at least a full unit. I'd lose the Seekers, as with a Fiend block and a flying/speedy Greater Daemon you can rip any shooty blocks to shreds, and that's really all that a small unit of Seekers is good for. To get the extra 50-100 points you could lose a few Hounds/Fiends/Flamers without really hurting the impact of those units.

4. Flesh Hounds. In small units (5-6 ideally, maybe up to 8) they're cheap enough that if you do end up chasing chaff/warmachines all game, you're not losing much, and they're still nasty supporting a Bloodletter combat.

I hope this helps!

Lytera summed it up nicely!

A MoS HoT helps your army tremendously, and that for only 175 pts!

I'd join the points of the seekers towards the fiends to get to 6 models.

A daemon prince is definately not the prime choice. But that's up to you :)

I'd steer away from 2 times firestorm blade too on the HoK. Mostly one is enough to fulfill the role of regen hunter in your army and the 2nd can then still be used to hunt characters.

Try to include some furies too, they're awesome :rock:

Thanks!

I'm also interested in MSU thoughts; I played WE for quite a while under the 6th ed White Dwarf rules and love the idea of fast hitting, elite combat resolution army.

Ideally, I know I want my combats to be overwhelmingly won in the first round and on my terms.

G ~

Grendel- hitting hard and fast with MSU is almost a must as you can't afford to get bogged down in protracted fights, but it does require a lot of skill to get those flanking charges and multi charges. It is also not very forgiving list in terms of mistakes, but it does bring great satisfaction when you manage to win! As me and few others here that tried this tactic already proven, it is absolutely viable, although obviously there will be certain lists that you will be struggling against (anything with lots of high armour saves for example).

That's why I now love Daemons! The list is like a cross between VC with a better instability, and Wood Elves with better close combat and magic (and a little less shooting of course).

I'm ok losing (frequently even) as long as we're having great games.

Ok, shall we try to deconstruct your list and turn it into MSU one then?:)

Absolutely let's continue to deconstruct!

Let's look at this version too if you like, or simply build up an new one from the beginning.

This still has no Nurgle - but exactly 2198 pts:

1 Bloodthirster of Khorne, 550 pts - General
1 Awesome Strength
1 Immortal Fury

1 Herald of Khorne, 140 pts
1 Firestorm Blade
1 Armour of Khorne

Herald of Khorne (1#, 125 pts)
1 Herald of Khorne (Battle Standard Bearer)

24 Bloodletters of Khorne, 330 pts - Full command

1 Herald of Tzeentch, 165 pts
1 Master of Sorcery
1 Spell Breaker
1 The Lore of Light

(Edit **Note - I like Death much more, especially if i theme out an Assassin/Ninja theme to the army, but I'll try anything. Looks like Light will bring some better hurt against VC or Daemons, but against Ogres...? I think I like Death better to eliminate the Tyrant.)

(Edit #2 - I have a very similar list with 1 HoK and 2 HoT, one without a second SpellBreaker... I think that second Death list might be the next game I play)


13 Daemonettes of Slaanesh, 223 pts - Full command
1 Siren Standard

3 Flamers of Tzeentch, 105 pts

3 Flamers of Tzeentch, 105 pts

2 Fiends of Slaanesh, 110 pts

2 Fiends of Slaanesh, 110 pts

5 Flesh Hounds of Khorne, 175 pts

5 Chaos Furies, 60 pts


Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 550 (0 - 550)
Points of Heroes: 430 (0 - 550)
Points of Core: 553 (550 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 175 (0 - 1100)
Points of Rare: 430 (0 - 550)

Total Roster Cost: 2198

mate one thing. If you really want to go down MSU route then definitely no greater demon as he is most obvious target in your army. One of the points of msu is that you present no targets as such.

Here's 2.5 k which I am running at the moment. Obviously it has more points that you are using, but just to give you idea how should it work ;)

General: Herald of Tzeentch with spell breaker and master of the sorcery (light) . Light is great for MSU armies!

herald of tzeentch , master of sorcery (death), winged horror

Herald of nurgle BSB (icon of greater despair and stream of bile)

core:
10 nettes with musician and banner of esctasy
12 blodletters with musician
12 blood letters with musician
5 furies

special: 3 screamers
3 screamers
3x5 fleshounds

rare: 4 flamers
4 flamers
fiend
fiend
bloodcrusher


Now first of all you should separate 24 letter in two units. 12 nettes with siren standard can be good, although banner of esctasy with unit of 10 works as well!

2x 2 fiends- I am not that convinced, single fiends seem to be better or run 1 single fiend and one unit of 3 fiends , one as warmachine hunter and other in flexible role of chaff kiler/warmachine hunter and flanking unit to help with multi charges against rank and file troops of things such as ironblaster or even monsters without good armour save if you are feeling adventurous :)

2x3 flamers is good, furies as well. Khorner heralds are not bad at all, if you have two units of bletters they will benefit more from it but i would give bsb armour of khorne- cheap and gives you a good save. Let me know what you think.
cheers

Furies don't count towards your Core points though.

***EDIT*** Sorry! I think that came out kind of rude and hurried :blink:

Your suggestions are very appreciated, and I'll try a list without either a BloodThirster or a Daemon Prince. Almost half of the points should be in Heros and Rare, and just over half should be in Core (550 for me at 2200 pts) and Special (<= 1100).

My next game is against Dwarves and he has at least one Cannon he's bringing.

you are right they don't but i forgot about unit of 14 plagueberars with FC and banner of sweeping decay :)

Did I get Ninja'd? :)

Cool - that's good to know!

they don't count towards the miniumum number of core units that you're required to field. there's nothing that says their points don't count towards your core allotment.

Brother Maynard - Hello!

As in points? I agree, sort of (?). I think that would be a better question to address to GW, or in another thread.

For the North Star GT I will not count the Furies as part of my core points.

Army Builder doesn't take units with that statement into account, including VC dire wolves from the previous book. ( :) I know, I know :) Army Builder isn't perfect, etc. - But is reliable enough to raise solid validation questions and at least count my points for me.)

Although loose on the models they allow at the North Star GT (non-GW acceptable, but WYSIWYG), it's pretty strict on the validation of lists.

let us know if you figure out the new list and we can all have a butchers :)

Here's what I'll play against a Dwarf army tomorrow morning.

Some I've never used before (all Nurgle, Furies, HoZ, Daemonettes, Lore of Death), but I have a great idea of what I'm looking to target and the mission for each of the 11 units plus characters.

- Both HoZ are going into units of Flamers, the ambition is to assassinate characters and ruin the opportunity for Steadfast for those Dwarves

- No unit is over 175 points, and once the HoZ join the Flamers, each is still at either 270 or 275.


2200 Pts - Daemons of Chaos Roster - 2200 Daemons 16 - 2 Tzeench - Undivided Assassins - Death to Hubris!


1 Herald of Tzeentch, (General)
1 Master of Sorcery
1 Winged Horror
1 The Lore of Death

1 Herald of Tzeentch,
1 Spell Breaker
1 Master of Sorcery
1 The Lore of Death

1 Herald of Khorne (Battle Standard Bearer)

1 Herald of Khorne


12 Bloodletters of Khorne, (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer)


12 Bloodletters of Khorne, (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer)

11 Plaguebearers of Nurgle (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std)
1 Standard of Seeping Decay

11 Daemonettes of Slaanesh ( Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std)
1 Banner of Ecstasy

3 Flamers of Tzeentch

3 Flamers of Tzeentch

3 Fiends of Slaanesh

3 Fiends of Slaanesh

5 Flesh Hounds of Khorne

5 Chaos Furies

5 Nurglings

Composition Report:
Points of Lords: 0 (0 - 550)
Points of Heroes: 550 (0 - 550)
Points of Core: 698 (550 - Unlimited)
Points of Special: 350 (0 - 1100)
Points of Rare: 540 (0 - 550)

Total Roster Cost: 2198

This looks much better. I would however switch one herald to lore of light but it is just me. Double death is certainly a good option but light gives you some amazing buffs and also quite good magic missiles. Of course it is not all that useful vs dwarfs, don't expect a lot of magic to happen :) Also I find plaguebearers in such a small unit without herald not that greatly effective. Another unit of demonettes or bloodletters would be better in my opinion. Rest sounds pretty solid.

I would take siren standard on the daemonettes for charging thunderers.

Give the winged horror to the non-general, in case you want to fly him up a flank and purple sun.. as he may then die from shooting.. but you can also fly the furies up next to him for a look out sir. If you know you are facing dwarfs why take the spell breaker?

I think 5 nurglings is too many IMO.. 3 is plenty just to make him pay for any poor war machine deployment or deciding to flee any charges. Go 3 or 2x3 IMO.

it is all comers list isnt it?

Yes, I prefer to make all comers lists instead of tricked out crush a specific opponent lists.

then spell breaker defo works :)

I'll give a battle report tomorrow my time :evil:

Battle report is here: 2200 MSU vs Dwarves

I've been watching EB's, UD's, and BM's discussion of MSU in the other post and it inspired me to run MSU as well. I haven't signed up yet, but with you, 2/3 of the daemon players will be MSU as I was originally planning on that format.

EB, I find it funny we made the same sacrafices and changes to put in a second HoT. I got rid of my HoK and changed a Daemonette unit to blood letters as well. To cut down to a 2.2k list I had 1 less unit of flesh hounds and no bloodcrusher. Otherwise, only a littlest small changes.

I ran my list vs Brets that had 4 units of 9 knights, one of which being grails. My opponent conceded after I rammed my 2 flesh hound units in the flanks of 2 busses and got off the aoe death spell for -1 str and t. I was able to break them due to the -2 ld banner and chase them down. I might write up a better batrep after I get off work. Our group was impressed by the MSU and may start to fear it. 12 blood letters can be scary on their own.

OP, are you from the Minneapolis gaming community?

(Yes, NW suburbs; I responded in message...)

I had a couple of kinks in my first MSU battle, mostly because of my (lack) of experience, my deployment, and my overall battle plan.

I'll give it another 20 tries or so before the tourney, hopefully 1-2 a week if I can :)

Paul- glad to see we managed to inspire you. i still remember months ago when I mentioned MSU demons and everybody on this forum was saying it is not going to work :)

Okay I'm really new to Daemons but I was wondering can we just take multiples of the same item?
I notice you have master of sorcery on both your Heralds is that allowed with this book?

Gifts, yes. Icons, no.