Title: Questions about greater daemons
lamo - June 5, 2012 12:30 PM (GMT)
So guys I'm gona play my first game with daemons on thursday against high elves. I wana be ready and wasn't sure how I should go about using a greater daemons. the only ones that seem to make sense to me are
the lord of change and great unclean one.
I dont know what type of high elves list its gona be but I feel like their gona have a strong magic phase.
How do I counteract it. Also I dont want my first game to be counting on kairos(people kind of look down on him lol).
So here are the builds I came up with
Great unclean one
lvl 3 balesword
Great Unclean one
lvl 4 mucus and stream of bile
Lord of change Tz
lvl 4 twin heads
All seem aight but I don't know the list feels really weak over all. I also have a keeper of secrets model but......is it me or does it seem to have like 0 resilience.
The rest besides the greater is
Herald of Tz
light or beasts (which is better) spell breaker
Herald of Khorne
Bsb armor of Khorne
Herald of Khorne
armor of Khorne
FC Icon of endless war
21 blood letters
With the rest of the list I could drop the furies and Crusher to make the little unit of letters stronger. Other thing is the icon of endless war worth it? Last thing do you guys think I should go into it without a greater daemon?
Thanks in advance for the help
God of war - June 5, 2012 01:22 PM (GMT)
I'd make the big one smaller and the small one bigger, each to about 30. Each with a HoK and supported with lore of light will mince even through hordes of white lions.
A GuO with Mucus and bile is awesome too. Just beware of shadow mages and book of hoeth though...
Icon of endless war is a must!
Noisy Assassin - June 5, 2012 01:33 PM (GMT)
I agree with God of War. Evening out your Bletter units will make your army more effective. And Light will definitly have better synergy with two blocks of Bletters than Beasts will (especially as the extra S from Wildform won't be relevant against elves). Even Flamers love getting Light buffs.
As far as the Greater goes, the magical GUO will have a very fun time against HE, as the Nurgle lore is strong against that squishy T3. The Lore of Tzeentch isn't going to be quite as optimal against them, but still not bad. If you take the Bird watch out for the 2+ wards vs Flaming though! As for a Keeper, it isn't nearly as squishy as it looks, especially if supported by Beasts magic. The ASF will deny the elves their re-rolls to hit and you're fast enough to easily get flank charges. More importantly, if you're concerned with survivability, there is this wonderful little Gift called Spirit Swallower. I haven't yet tried it myself, but let's just say that a lot of people refer to Swallower Kippers as practically immortal ^.^
DaemonReign - June 5, 2012 03:02 PM (GMT)
Being one of the people Noisy refers to here [I love Spirit Swallower and take it like every single time for my Keepers] I'd still suggest using the Great Unclean One against High Elves.
The ASF Keeper cancel out HE re-rolls - sure - but that works both ways(!) which means that Spirit Swallower is diminished quite a Little bit since your Keeper will hit less and thus run a higher risk of not regaining enough wounds each round of combat (he's only got 5 wounds, after all, which isn't a 'range' that you want to be testing too much...)
The GuO on the other hand can be a level 4 wizard if a Lore of Magic where every single spell is pure anathema to High Elves. Plaguewind has got to be one of the most cost-efficient spells against Elves in existance.. Unless they bring banner of the World dragon or whatever that 'cheat' is called. ;)
I don't play against HE but from what I read on the whining-webz it's all about taking out Teclis in that big unit that is immune to magic..
JonathanC - June 5, 2012 03:49 PM (GMT)
Last time I took a greater against High Elves it was a GUO with Balesword, Noxious Vapours and Level 2 (it was a tournament, so I didn't really tailor it). The GUO was one of only 2 models left in my army at the end. I found the Balesword useful for dealing with Elves that had been boosted to T7 by Life magic, but otherwise I would have been better off with more gifts or magic levels probably. I would definitely recommend Noxious Vapours though, it cancels out ASF for models in base contact and lets the GUO strike before them.
Dragon armour would put me off using an LoC a bit. As for the rest of your army I think the others gave you some good advice - 21 Bloodletters won't last long against Swordmasters, but 30 will stand a decent chance.
God of war - June 5, 2012 05:00 PM (GMT)
I wouldn't worry about dragon armour too much. Standard lists will have indeed a L4 mage sided by a world dragon BsB, but will leave no room for extra characters. Perhaps oddly (but can be seen) a hero on eagle, with the dragon armour of course.
But you can avoid it (apart from the eagle-hero perhaps) most of the time and hunt little to mid-sized units, where the LoC excels in with his fly and decent amount of high str attacks. That racks points up swiftly too.
Your BL's can then rush towards the big points :)
Also, you don't lose points if you keep your LoC outside of combat. He can still cast at will and High elves don't have much to throw at him at long range (apart from the now rarely-seen bolt throwers...)
lamo - June 6, 2012 05:13 PM (GMT)
So a few additional questions.
1) Isn't bolt of change not flaming and thus gives me a really offensive option against Dragon armor stuff(lord on dragon especially against the lord on dragon since thats what I'd want to be using on him anyways?)
2) I've been looking around and it seems that the most common lores of magic for HE are Shadow and life (ussually taking shadow on their level two and choosing the spells they want and getting 5 spells with their lvl 4 from lore of life) With that in mind doesnt that mean nurgle would lose effectiveness(higher toughness from life) and then give tzeenetch a bounus since so many spells have flaming? Also that means that the lore of Tz gains alot of power because besides all those missles I get
2) withering (If they didn't take this I'd be so suprised)
1) Flesh to stone
3) Finally what do you guys think of this revised list?
LoC lvl 4 of Tz
Herald of Tz
(Beast death or light) spell breaker
Herald of Khorne
Armor of Korn BsB
Banner of sundering
Herald of Khorne
Armor of Khorne Firestorm Blade
FC Icon of endless war
Only issue I am having are that I want the lore of light but I really think the sundering banner is amazing (against life especially). Do you think death or lore of beast + sunderring banner are better than light? Finally Tell me if the LoC is really a bad idea.
Thanks for our help and sorry for so many questions
brother_maynard - June 6, 2012 09:05 PM (GMT)
if i use the sundering banner, i usually go for a daemon lore on the greater and either heavens or metal on the herald. they are both awesome and seldom used lores, so the chances of nerfing your own lore are slim.
also, the LoC is very good, i think death and tzeentch are the best lores for him although light can be good in heavily comped events. other lores depend much more on whether or not you need specialized magic in your list (which you don't).
|2) I've been looking around and it seems that the most common lores of magic for HE are Shadow and life (ussually taking shadow on their level two and choosing the spells they want and getting 5 spells with their lvl 4 from lore of life) With that in mind doesnt that mean nurgle would lose effectiveness(higher toughness from life) and then give tzeenetch a bounus since so many spells have flaming? Also that means that the lore of Tz gains alot of power because besides all those missles I get|
not necessarily, as he can only buff one unit's T per turn. if he gets flesh to stone through on a unit, you can just throw your plague magic at something else, there is really no shortage of targets in the HE army.
EDIT: and your list looks good although Tz's will is better than twin heads on the daemon lore. you don't really need the +2 to cast as the values are so low and if you have the re-roll, you can do some really horrible stuff. you can throw 1 die at boon or glean to squeak it through, or re-roll the S or # of hits from bolt (i always roll the dice for hits and strength together so i can see both before declaring the re-roll). or you can bump up dispels with it, or shrug off miscasts. seriously that gift is insanely good.