Title: Looking for Critiques
Description: 3000pt list for tourny
Mremetz - May 28, 2012 11:29 PM (GMT)
So I'm playing in a tournament with some friends in July, and its all 3000 point lists. I've never played demons at this pt level, and so I don't really have any experience putting together lists of this caliber. That being said, here's what I've put together:
Lord of Change (General) -Master of Sorcery (Shadow? Beasts? Light?)
HoK - Armor of Khorne
30x Bloodletters (with the HoK) -Full Command
15x Bloodletters - Full Command
HoS -Siren Song
30x Daemonettes (w/ HoS) -Full Command
HoT (BSB)-Spell Breaker
21x Horrors (w/ HoT) -Full Command
And that comes out to 2997pts. So what do you guys think? Did I do a good job? Should I [I]scrap[I/] it? (Well, I cant scrap it really, since I'm a bit tight on models :P) Please give me any suggestions you got, I'm all ears
God of war - May 29, 2012 08:06 AM (GMT)
I never played daemons at such a high points level either. But I'll try to help nonetheless :) . Of course keeping in mind that you're tight on models to choose from!
The chicken is not an obvious choice. What level is he? I always include light in my lists. In my 'beliefs' a HoT does the same thing as the LoC for a lot less points. But I'm not going to steer you away from a greater :) A spell breaker/destroyer is good money value too!
I'd ditch the horror block and up the second bloodletter block to 30-ish, giving you 3 awesome combat blocks.
Second HoT would be great with shadow and in conjunction with the daemonettes.
Take the icon of endless war and siren standard on the letters/daemonettes too. Together 50 pts, and add a lot of tactical toying.
The fury/seeker/hound/fiend MSU idea is a good one. They can each fulfill a specific role and give your opponent headaches :)
I do find the flamers a tadd small, but perhaps units of 3 are enough in 3K, as everything just gets bigger.
Hope that helps!
Mremetz - May 29, 2012 12:50 PM (GMT)
Hey, thanks for the comment!
First off, the LoC is a lvl 4. My choice of using him as my greater demon, since id like to be using one at 3000, is that I wanted a stronger wizard than just my HoT. At high pt values ill definitley be seeing other level 4's, and for things like dispells (without the scroll :P) id like to be at the same level, so they dont get a plus 2 for there level against me every time).
Also, while i respect having two big blocks of b-letters, I dont own 15 more of them, but I also have considerable faith n the horror unit. If I add some more to the unit, it makes a good tarpit, which can set up good multi-charges, but with some magic beefing, it can also be a considerable CC unit as well.
I like the lore of shadow, especially with deamonettes, alot, and light as well, though id probably put the Shadow on my LoC since the ranges of those spells arent great.
zhambah - May 29, 2012 12:54 PM (GMT)
I've just got to ask... is kairos banned?
Mremetz - May 29, 2012 01:20 PM (GMT)
Hes not banned per sei, but special characters are kind of frowned upon in the group i.e. we dont usually use them. Generally, we tend to stick with non-special units and what-not.
God of war - May 29, 2012 02:23 PM (GMT)
zhambah - May 29, 2012 03:19 PM (GMT)
^^^ this is the truth
in my opinion if you don't take kairos your most likely going to be out magic'd at 3k LoC is fine... but that's it... hes fine. just another level 4 caster for a hell of a lot more points, alright so hes better in combat than most level 4 casters... but at the end of the day, your casters shouldn't be getting into combat
Mremetz - May 29, 2012 09:37 PM (GMT)
Well, seeing as I cant take kairos, what should i do otherwise for stronger magic? I dont want to just rely on level 2s.
zhambah - May 29, 2012 10:07 PM (GMT)
you can't really... well... theres a few options... but if you can't have kairos, you can't have blue scribes... that only leaves great standard of sundering. which when facing elves, slaan, beastmen, counts... isnt going to do a whole lot
your going to be at a disadvantage in magic, you might as well face that... the problem lies that the way to win through magic is augments and hex's... and even with 45 bloodletters your still going to suffer.
and our two strongest phases are combat and magic, and without magic our combat will go down... sorry i've just realised how negative i'm being.
you could have a level 2 hotz which can support your lord, but have a level 4 GUO or Kipper. they are both far superior in combat, not many people expect a level 4 with a balesword (because its so expensive) or a tool up level 4 Kipper...
I still say take kairo's though :P
Mremetz - May 30, 2012 01:06 AM (GMT)
I could try a GUO, i think he has more survivability anyway, but the keeper would be better in mobility, so its a tossup. Gotta figure out what ill do for the model, but i have something in mind that could work, with some converting, for the GUO at least. Although either will be more expensive, so ill have to make room. Maybe remove the seeker unit...
und_ed - May 30, 2012 08:19 AM (GMT)
I'm kinda appalled at the lack of respect for the LoC...
I still reckon he's the best value-for-points of all our Greaters. He's an awesome wizard (I'd leave him with Lore of Tzeentch, it's plenty destructive enough and can give you a great phase with Boon and Glean Magic), can get the incredible re-roll from Will, and is a fantastic supporting melee threat with 5 S6 attacks and a solid WS plus thunderstomp, and flaming just for kicks. He's quite a bit better in combat than a GUO with more attacks and a higher WS, something most people forget.
I suppose this goes to Zhambah's comment of "your lvl 4 wizard should not be getting into combat", which I believe is horribly short-sighted. At 600 points for your wizard, I should hope he can do more than toss around a few spells, and the flying chicken can do just that.
So the short answer is this: Definately use the chicken, he's a fantastic option, but I'd try desperately to fit in Tzeentch's Will on him (re-rolling thunderstomp rolls of 1, or ward saves versus canonballs, are things that really can swing a game in your favour).
God of war - May 30, 2012 09:39 AM (GMT)
Und_ed is right in a way. Somtimes thinking outside the box might show some solutions. You can have great fun AND results with the chicken. He'll encounter some threats, but hey: it's war, ain't it :)
Mremetz - May 30, 2012 10:51 AM (GMT)
Thanks again for the continued advice. So i think i will take the LoC, and lll think about what to change up in order to add will of tzeentch, cuase that is pretty great? I thought the LoC would be okay, but im not too experienced so i got a little thrown off. Thanks anyway for your advice to though zambah, im not counting you out :P
God of war - May 30, 2012 04:28 PM (GMT)
Tzeentch' will is a good one. If I were to take a LoC I would think about kitting him with: dark magister, MoS and a spell destroyer.
Dark magister lets you play a bit more agressively until you hit that 1st miscast.
zhambah - May 30, 2012 09:16 PM (GMT)
mremetz the best way is to have a few games with each and see what is the best feel for you.
and despite und_ed's criticism, i still say a chicken shouldnt get into combat, yeah he's more versatile than an average wizard, but that's why your paying so much for him. he's still weaker in combat that all the other greater daemons. the only way i would let him get in harms way would be if i was running beasts and i can get some major buff's on him... not taking kadon into account, because that's just a bit broken
Mremetz - May 30, 2012 09:35 PM (GMT)
True, although I dont plan on getting him in combat. i should get at least four games in before the tourny, but hopefully more. Ill try out the LoC first, if hes not working out, something else. Thanks everyone for the great advice:)
und_ed - May 31, 2012 10:27 AM (GMT)
Well zhambah, I suppose you've answered my first question, namely "why do people underrate the LoC?". If you pay 600+ points for an awesome fighter-wizard, and refuse to let it fight, then no wonder you don't get a good return on your points-investment.
objectively, he's a much better fighter than a GUO - more attacks, same Strength, and a significantly better WS, so hitting on more attacks. Pretty much the only thing the GUO is better suited for is accepting challnges with the balesword, but no Greater should be going into a unit solo anyway.
Why on earth wouldn't you want to throw a 5-attack, WS6, S6 creature with thunderstomp into combat? I really don't get it. If you take the chicken, you should be planning for it to fight, and since it flies it should be fighting on your terms.
Rageaholic - May 31, 2012 10:51 AM (GMT)
I think one big off-put with combat would be that with lore of Tz 3 of his spells are magic missiles.
The second is that people rarely use big monsters well. They get thrown at big combat units and die.
But for snacking on archers etc. war machines, chaff and weakened combat units, from a flank or the rear he looks to be without compare.
A question I had about the LoC. in 2400 point games or games without special characters couldn't you give him lv4 and 2 heads? He won't have Kairos's spell selection but he will still get the +6 to casting.
und_ed - May 31, 2012 12:27 PM (GMT)
You could give him twin-heads, but I much prefer Tzeentch's will. The reroll is so versatile, and so useful, it trumps the raw casting power of twin heads for me.
If people are worried that the chicken isn't casting when he fights, they can easily still fit in Master of Sorcery, and give him Beasts / Light / Life / Shadows for buffing goodness.
For me it's the supporting power of monsters that is being badly overlooked - he's effectively a chaos lord with a thunderstomp and +1S, so throw him into almost any combat with a unit and watch him shine, easily tipping the combat in your favour.