compiled for bell of lost souls

On HullPoints: If a vehicle has 3 hull points it will die after 3 shaken results, but it can still explode after 1 shot as normal.

On Assault: All cc weapons have AP values in 6th similar to what was in the fake 6th ed rule book leak.

Many of the general concepts from magic from Warhammer Fantasy are coming to Warhammer 40,000.
-There will be "lore equivalents"
-Psychic powers will be generated randomly by psykers (like fantasy)
-Entirely new rules for constructing army lists (~Look at Fantasy for hints)
-The FOC may be history

Snap fire - allows a unit to shoot at an attacking unit at bs 1 prior to being assaulted.

Rhino's have 3 hull points, Landraiders and the defiler have 4. Any damage chart result other than wrecked or explodes will take 1 hull point away.

Hq's can challange

Every unit gets a 6+ save vs. all Psychic Powers.
Random Charge Lengths are in
Pre-measuring is in.
Random Battlefield effects are in.
All armies can purchase buildings for placement on the battlefield.
Psychic powers are selected during deployment. (except Grey Knights)
Deployment and Missions types have doubled.

There will be at least 4+ "Disciplines" of Psychic Powers in the game. (WFB has 8 lores)
-Disciplines seem to fall roughly along the lines of the sects described in the novel "A Thousand Sons" as used by the Heresy-Era chapter.
-Each Discipline will have a "Default" power and a set of others that you will roll for each game.
-Number of rolls you get and the the exact details of which powers you end up with are said to be similar to WFB 8th's power selection mechanic.
-Powers have a "Casting Cost" that is different from the mechanic used in WFB 8th.
-Certain 6th Codices will add additional racial specific Disciplines.



Hull points: this would be good for us making it easier to take out tanks.

CC weapons AP: Almost just an upside for us. I am guessing most will not be AP 3 where must of our armor is. less save for them more for us.

percentage based army comp over FoC. Can't say I like this but I could see the reason for it. Id rather they find a way to make troops tempting then just force you to take them.

Psychic powers: It is nice they are giving every one a defense even if it is small. That being said fantasy's magic is a bit to game altering and random for my taste. It would be nice to see a better miscast table though I can count on one hand the number of times a psycher has taken a wound. lore sound cool too.

Random charge length: this goes hand in hand with Pre-measuring. I have to say I think this takes some of the skill out of the game.

Hq challenge: Kinda like this.

Buy builds: Hate this.


What do you guys think ?

I'm not so sure. Usually stuff that comes out of BoLS is pretty accurate so I'm not going to outright call shenanigans. I just think however, that GW has spent a lot of time devising rules for their three main game systems that this seems to be a step away from that. Who knows. Perhaps we are in for a big change of rules, which would be a pity as I think 5th ed could do with some minor tweaks and it would be a pretty solid game.

dp

I've seen a lot of these debated on Warseer. Many people on that forum are sceptical on whether they will happen (particularly the psyker-related stuff) or whether it could work at all. I think it all sounds plausible and could easily be made to work if done properly.

I don't like the buying buildings idea either, and if they do random terrain effects I hope they are a bit more toned down than Warhammer's are.

Hull points makes it sound a bit too easy to take some vehicles out (especially for Necrons), but I'll wait to see how it pans out.

As for the random charges, well if you play with the correct amount of terrain now you'll often find yourself having to roll 2D6 to see whether you can complete a charge or not. Personally I think it works in Warhammer, and instead of taking away the skill it adds a new one - risk management.

Sounds interesting anyway, only 2 months to go now until we know for certain how much of this is true. :)

Interesting indeed. I'll definitely be interested to see how this pans out, as I've mostly been avoiding 40K in favor of Fantasy. 5th ed isn't terribly kind to the fact that my two armies are 'Nids and Daemons.

This to add ; updating fluff and allies.

JonathanC , I think we are missing something on hull points. My guess is fast moving tanks are going to be harder to hit or you have to do all the hull points in one turn or they get repaired. The latter would make high AV stuff harder to kill while making to so AV 10 could end up with more then a can't shoot after you put a lot of shooting in to it. Could just be an overreaction from 5 ed. too.

I love it. Vehicles were way too powerful on this edition thus I welcome it gladly that they can actually be destroyed easier. This makes the game much more troop oriented, which is great! 25% limit minimum to core would also be good news. Im sick and tired of seeing all those "minimum tough unit that only sits on the objective" stuff. I would definately love the psychic rules if they would be more random. I am really annoyed to the fact that majority of psychic rules are almost automatic successes (only 8-17% of failing) and even if failing effects do hardly nothing. Way too reliable for stuff like lash or any reroll spells. Random charges was awesome thing in warhammer and in my opinion raised skill level much more as now everyone knows the distances and its up to the ability to control risks and odds than knowing excact distances. We have great edition coming up if these rumours will hold =)

I've heard rumors of assaults off deep strike and reactive fire if you assault. So not all rumors are good. I'm worried the vehicle changes will weaken them too much and it'll just lopside the metagame away from vehicles instead of the way it is now. Demons get the shaft against vehicles, but that is cause our codex writer didn't build in any anti-armor capabilities, which is a huge miss once 5th came out and people started stuffing everyone into a transport.

As for the other rules I'm mixed. Random charge distance would be ok, but it depends on how it works. If it's you get 2d6 take the highest charge distance all the time then i'm ok with it as it makes assaults a bit tougher (sucks for us). But if they give assaulting units 2d6" on top of their 6" move and fleet move then I'll be annoyed. It'll be great for heavy melee armies like demons but heavy shooty armies like Tau will be ruined.

Random psychic powers to me sound stupid. Psychic powers are already overpowered in 5th edition, but are nerfed at the same time. Sure you pass them 90% of the time but 50% of those get nullified by a stupid psychic hood on a space marine, or a farseer or nid with shadows makes you fail the test. In the future, not only do you still have all the nerfing rules like shadows of the warp and psychic hoods, but you no longer can plan on a particular power because they are random? That to me makes em effin useless.

I always though random charge distances lowed skill level. You could set everything up perfect, play at tactically perfect game then roll 3's to charge on key assaults when you needed 4's and watch it all wash away.

I'm an avid fantasy player but truly hate what pre-measuring, random charges and no guess ranges have done to the game.

Would hate to see 40k go the way of inserting more randomness when it doesn't really add much tactically to the game, just one more crazy thing to go wrong and blame the dice for... really do we need yet another random element to affect our army?

I had a break between 5th and 8th fantasy so I don't know how it was done in 6th and 7th, but I always thought the guessing ranges was stupid.
It was easy to cheat if you knew what you were doing.
It meant that being able to accurately guess a range was as important as tactical skill.

I like the randomness of the charges, it leads to less "shuffling about" in the middle as you try and get as close as you can so if they move forwards you can get the charge. And I like being able to take the risk of trying to pull off a long charge, or taking advantage of a failed charge.

I haven't played 5th ed 40k in very competitive environments but I understand tactics such as positioning in movement so only 1 model is in combat after assault so you could finish them off in their turn were commonplace in high level play. Random movement and maximising like in fantasy should eliminate those sorts of shenanigans.

Of course speculation before the rules are out is kind of silly anyway, but if there's a stand and shoot option it should eliminate some of the avantage this might give more assault favouring armies.
I very much doubt they are stupid enough to completely unbalance the game in favour of assault armies.

That said I don't like 5th at all so any shake up is good by me.

I would agree that speculation of the rules is not really all that productive right now. People are always posting ideas and other rumors and nothing is set yet. I am a bit afraid that some of the rumors will get release tho (like assault off a deep strike... ugh) but I'm not gonna hold my breath. In a month or so we'll have the new edition and it'll be a whole new game once again and if we are lucky, maybe demons will get a boost in effectiveness.

All of those rumours hint that 40k is going very much on the same direction that fantasy battle took the game and in general that is a good thing even though some players might not like it. 8th edition in warhammer was a great hit and many players returned into the game and new ones started it. Majority who disliked the 8th edition didnt like random charges and powered up magic. So lets talk about random charges a bit here as they might be coming to 40k also.

For an active player it takes half-2 years to learn to measure all distances in their head and after that you pretty much can play really hardcore why newcomers really have trouble with this. It took bit longer for me as I was playing more offensive armies that didnt need to calculate things as much, but back then my opponent who played empire learned it very fast due to using so many cannons and war machines. We both can estimate distances really accurately, even half inches.

So on 7th edition warhammer and still in 40k we both could position our units 12,5" away from the opponent to prevent assaulting for example. I can also estimate deepstrike odds really easily since I have played and estimated distances for like 12+ years in this game already. I do not count it as skill, as it's something everyone learns pretty quickly with the game. It will however raise unneccessary arguements quite often, as my not so experienced players opponents are not as good in there and would start argues that I couldnt know that troops were 12,5" away and how his units should have got on combat and stuff like that.

Random charges and premeasuring remove all this and instead both players then know where he can move the units so they will not be shot/charged and so on. When both players know this, it becomes much more strategic as both players are surely on the same level with measuring things and both are guaranteed to know all variables. Now random charges might sound bad, but in the end they are just skill to control risks. If you try maximum range charges all the time and fail, thats not bad luck thats lack of skill in a very same way as you controlled risks by getting better leadership, rerolls or transport to a unit. Sure it can make annoying things to you sometime, but honestly I have had only one game so far (after what...1-2 years of 8th edition) that random charges really wrecked my game with constant double 1 rolls.

Though, like Marandamir said, nothing is set to stone yet and these are only rumours. We might not get random charges on 40k, but even if we did it really isnt that bad.

Latest 6th ed timeline rumor:

Upcoming release schedule. Looks like a white dwarf 6th ed rules summary this weekend and the full rulebooks on 6/30. Alas, no demon stuff released.

Does it bother anyone else that daemons got left out of psych powers again? I read some other people complaining about eldar not getting this or that and csm not getting x , when they have the 1k sons and I just kept thinking. DAEMONS! you know the things that control the warp for psych powers. It just be nice if tzeench got powers as shooting attacks , you could DS off psychers or we got a good psychic defense , just something in that so we could interact with that aspect of the game. Maybe they were just worried about making the top tier daemons to strong if they gave us that too.

I agree we're daemon, manifestation of the warp. You know the warp, the stuff that gives people psychic powers. (sigh)

we dont need psychic powers, we have gifts of chaos which stuff that acts like a psychic power but WITHOUT THE LEADERSHIP TEST that may or may not be passed, which are better AND when we DO get our new codex next year along with the rumored plastic greater daemons (w00t) im sure we will have gifts just as powerful as the new psychic disiplines. even with our current codex i believe 6th will make the army very powerful. i cant wait to try the new edition of the game out

If gifts of chaos are psychic powers then we are missing out on the whole war gear thing that all the other codex have and that is even worse... Also we are not getting a new codex just a faq so our codex works with 6th.

Fine cast GD , plastic PB. I really doubt we will get anything new. Just kinda on the extreme of fluff not matching up.

6th should be a nice change though.

This is from the new white dwarf:

In the Chaos Daemons army everything causes Fear, which is nicely representative of their horror. But thats not nearly as exciting as the Flying Monstrous Creature rules. These allow my Bloodthrister and Daemon Princes to soar up to 24" across the tabletop, ignoring all but the most dedicated anti-aircraft weapons as they get ready to assault the puny mortals below.

I believe they get d3 +1 attack at normal str. I really hop fear is different from fantasy fear as LD is much higher in 40K.

It seems DS mishaps is 1-3 , opponent puts where you want. 4-6 back in reserve. So that is a it safer

all of that sounds great and welcome benefits for our army, i cant wait to try out the new rules with my daemons

and deviant, i understand we are not getting a new codex this year, i clearly said next year in my post and yes there Will be plastic greater daemons when the codex gets released next year, the all the fantasy big monsters and new tyranid tervigon/tyrannofex is proof that they can do stuff like that and they will

Guess we will have to see. Can't see the CD book coming out next year though. With tau, elder and orks having older books CSM coming soon and the mandatory SM books in between. Faq, hopefully timely , but can't see a new book next year.

Dark Angels, Tau, Black Templars and Eldar are the next armies in the pipeline, after chaos marines in August. Chaos Daemons are indeed a long way off. Still, that doesn't mean we won't get any new models after plaguebearers. We might get a wave next year.

Anyway, from what I read, deep strike mishaps is 1-dead; 2-3-misplaced 4-6-back in reserve. It's essentially the same, but a bit more forgiving. Also, no assaulting after deep strike, that's still just plane strike.

Oh, and the flying monstrous creatures' 'zoom' move, while cool allowing a free strike at whatever you pass along the way, does not allow assaulting afterwards, so keep that in mind. But they will be shot at as fliers (6 to hit) unless they're "taken down" (in which case they suffer an extra hit).

And on the subject of psychic powers - chaos gifts are both wargear (armour of Khorne, hellblades, rending claws, etc) and psychic power equivalent abilities (Pavane of Slaanesh, Bolt of Tzeentch, Gift of chaos, etc). The only problem is that in the end we have _very_ few of both, while other races that have had entire codices around for a long while now have loads more options, and are getting the new psychic powers on top of those. It sucks, but we'll grin and bear it until the next edition of the codex is out and we get more stuff to play with...

Not so good as Fear has no effect on any MEQ armies.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments...k_rulebook_ama/

If you read through this, you can catch snippets about how Monstrous Creatures have been changed for the worse and also some, but not much information on Daemons.

I think I might have to sit out 40k until the dust settles and just switch over to Fantasy.

I hate the new rules about Allies. That just makes me angry.

Pavane of Slaanesh, Bolt of Tzeentch, Gift of chaos could be war gear tremor staff missile launcher and transdimensional beamer are pretty fair comparisons.

Zech is right about the mishap table. still it is a bit nicer.

@FKB I did't get the and they shall know no fear joke at 1st lol.

I think MC got better if they have wings. You drop down say 20" away take a turn of longer range shooting then fly over getting d3+1 hits in. You can't be assaulted and they need 6's to hit then next turn you charge in. Losing 2d6 to pen sucks , but if smash lets you go above str 10 you are better off anyway. stomp could come in handy vs somethings. Id be willing to bet they are ap 1 or 2 in CC meaning +1/2 on tank dmg chart and if 2++ becomes big with power weapons being ap 3( I think) then they will be a good counter.

I am more worried about overwatch and if you can use it on deep strikers. It would go from 1st turn doing nothing to 1st turn their whole army gets to shoot us as we come in.

2/9 of the command perks do absolutely nothing for us and if you want FW to have it you can't take another HQ. Shame too I was looking forward to him having FNP too. Guess crons could have 2+/3++ then 5+ fnp then 4+ RP.

I disliked allies at 1st then someone said it is a good way for older books to mix in some of the things they are really missing. What bothers me is the lack of reason for a lot of the pairing. It should be just anyone with anyone, you could make a fluff reason for any of it the same way you could have a fluff reason for them fighting. I hear at 2k+ you get 2 FOC that will help a lot too for some armies.

Anyone know if you have to be any IC to challenge or if HQ's can ?

I will not play this version of 40k until the Daemon codex is released so I can actually see what is done to them. If I like what I see, I will play. Otherwise, to Fantasy I will rebase.

Hoping I can have a little fun with 4 winged MC’s before a swarm of flyers shows up, or a faq appears and an IG hydra battery starts shooting holes in my idea. :lol:

The softer deepstrike rules makes me want to drop flamers though. maybe a few bloodthirstiers and start popping razorback so I have something to flame the next turn.

Most likely, I’ll be adding a lot of my daemons into a CSM list. Bloodcrushers will probably get shelved :(

you people reek of fear, seriously, 6th isnt even out yet and you are starting to raise the white flag in defeat.

our army will be fine and fun to play with and against. and thats what is important

cowards the lot of you

Oh boy, the daemons really got some love with the new book. Im reading it now and can guarantee some fun stuff that helps us.

Random charges got in game. This is HUGE buff to us, since random charge will work on 2D6, so majority of core troops move on 6+(fleet)+2D6. Also premeasuring got into game.
Also models cannot shoot and assault anymore, so thats buff for us since majority of our models wont shoot anyway.
Wound allocation gets better for us, as attacker (or shooter) gets to choose where the wounds will be allocated. No more nob boy madness.

We have tons of melee so next one will get you excited: You remove melee casualities from base contact first. Which means that you can effectively wipe out all opponents melee units so they wont have chance to strike back. Good for letters and Daemonettes for example.

There is a Daemon special rule, which works just like in fantasy battle. We get 5++ save and fear, which works exactly same as in WHFB. Also fearless models wont suffer stupid fearless wounds anymore (HURRAY!)

Monstrous creatures, and cavalry all make one AP- I10 hit in charge before their normal attacks. Monsters can strike with double strenght if they half their attacks (bye for tanks).

Flyers get awesome. They can move in 2 ways, normal jump pack or swooping. With swooping they can move 24" and if they do, opponent hits them on BS1 only and they can deal hits to models they fly over. So LoC can for example fly through models, kill some and then shoot even more without engaging to close combat!

So far looking good to us. Im still browsing to find out more =)

That's a relief! Thanks for that tidbit Kitsune!

The rest sounds nice too, but seeing as I don't play 40K I'm mostly just happy that the general Daemonic traits seems to be here to stay in both systems. :)

Yeah! The few guys that still actively play this army are on the internet complaining about things they don’t like… Nooooooooooo! :P :rolleyes:

Screamers are going to be the big winners here. No more, “I moved that rhino 6.01,”. If they can hit walkers on a normal WS, I’ll take a full spread.

Not to rain on your parade, but while the random charge range is theoretically good for assault armies, there's a few other changes that are not so good.

Fleet does NOT allow you to run and assault. It allows to reroll the run or charge dice.

Unsaved wounds are allocated on the closest models, and the charge dice are rolled AFTER the enemy has had a chance to shoot you. Therefore we will keep being "pushed back", both in opponent's shooting phase and in our own assault phase.

Rapid fire is getting better - works at full range even when moving. Vehicles can move and fire weapons they previously could not at BS1. Same goes for stunned dreadnoughts.

Repeated glances kill vehicles. That's good for many armies, but other than bolts, we don't really have weapons that can glance reliably.

Power weapons are AP3. Bloodletters and bloodcrushers are now going to be bitchslapped by terminators and anything else with 2+ save.

On the brighter side, we do get to challenge and sergeants seem to be treated like characters (so they can be killed off).

Frankly, in order to stay afloat, I see the best daemon lists in 6ed being composed of horror bolt spam with as many flying monsters as one can fit, with fiends, flamers and hounds or seekers in support.

But the most action daemons will see now will be as allies to CSM. As someone else said - can't wait for the next codex... Good thing I have loads of Chaos Marines. :D

Thanks for clearing some of that up for me then. I feel better.

It is for sure that the Strength is doubled and not just doubled to 10?

I haven't read the book but I would be surprised if it isn't capped at 10 as that is a general rule for all characteristics. Still, it sounds like the Smash attacks will be optional so if you have a Thirster with Unholy Might you could just use his regular strength of 8 (9 on the charge) and still retain all your attacks. Also, DP's won't need to buy Unholy Might to help them against vehicles as their strength doubles to 10 anyway.

From what I've read on various forums it looks like Daemons will be left in roughly the same place they are now to me, perhaps marginally improved (mainly due to Fear and less-risky deep striking, plus vehicles being a bit easier to deal with). Some units may get a bit worse, but others should get better to compensate. Anyway, I'm refusing to get worried until I have got the book in my hands and maybe played a game or two.

One thing to consider for anyone interested in fielding allies is that the starter box will feature CSM vs DA, giving us a decent themed allied contingent for our Daemon armies (the DA models could easily be converted into more Chaos Marines by removing their chapter icons and adding some spikes to them).

@ thebringeroftruth , chill man we are allowed to be disappointed and excited about the new book.

I was wondering about that too FKB. half the attacks for a BT to go from S 9 to 10 is pretty meh , but 9 to 18 would be nice.

Normally the 40K section is kinda dead on the site I guess we have a lot to do now. Big game changes to little stuff like FNP becoming 5+ but working vs power weapons.

The other side of the coin to is the FAQ , hope it comes out same day as the book, I mean it would not be hard to change hell blade to ap 2 ( or crushers to cav *drool*) so we still only have half the story. My guess is they will still be on the weaker side of 40K armies , but hey at least we get to have fun finding out. If all else fails can;t be much worse of then 5th and we could always just play chaos(space marines) daemons.

Also depending on the cost com relay might be an auto include. place it near an objective drop some PB on it and start re-rolling the reserve rolls the rest of the game.

Just had another thought, If we ally with CSM who are battle brothers we can use special rules wargear etc.. Does that mean we could start with an Icon on the table and DS in off it ? if we can find an icon unit with scout we could be set.

Yeah, we will need to see the FAQs too, not just the rulebook, for stuff like icons working between codices. I'm a bit doubtful that hellblades will get a special AP value though.

Still, I'd love to be proven wrong... :)

One thing I'm wondering, have base sizes been somehow standardized? So can I still use my square based daemons from fantasy in 40k?

That has always been a question Horus the official ruling(was) is use the base it cam with so square bases are ok. It normally does not make a difference , but it is nice to have some of the circle bases around just to stop arguments. I had a guy get pissed he was out of charge range " because" I was on a square base. Swapped it for a circle and he was farther away, stopped the argument with minimal effort. There is always the grandfather clause if all else fails. Have you seen the really old blood thirsters ?

As ambiguous and pointless as before, so the squares are safe.

Frankly though, you're better off putting them on round bases, since while they're on movement trays the shape of the base doesn't really matter...