so i was trawling one of the local gaming club forums and i came across a mention of rumors that DoC and Codex:CD are being redone together, slated for early 2013. the poster was someone i consider rather reliable with an excellent rumor track record thus far in 8th, has the legion heard anything along these lines?

That would be crazy awesome, although I'm actually liking our book the farther 8th comes along. The other books are catching up! :D

Some of the big rumour names haven't mentioned this at all so I'm reluctant to believe. Also more salt in the wounds of any Brett, Dwarf and Wood Elf players.....

Well I have heard of plastic PB's this summer. Can't remember if it was Hastings before he hung up his rumor gloves...

Yeah Plastic Plaguebearers were supposedly to be released with the next edition of 40K, right? I've seen TheDarkGeneral state that, most notably.

As for C:CD and DoC being released together I don't think that much a rumour but rather a given 'fact'. JonathanC was told as much by Mat Ward himself on last year's Games Day.

Early 2013 is a bit closer in timeline compared to what I would have expected, but it's not close enough to be completely unreasonable as far as rumours go. I agree with Squalie that other books 'deserve' to be redone more than ours, for two reasons:

1 - Some books (Brets, Dwarves, WE) are really old thus have more or less big 'issues' from what I hear.
2 - Our book, ironically, got a whole new 'life' with 8th Edition - as Squalie said - so it's rather ironic if we're on the first half of the new Books being done. Just when even a sizeable proportion of the people at Warseer are waking up to the fact that Daemons arn't 'broken' we're gonna get a new book that does one of two things in all likelihood: Either nerfing Daemons by kneejerk which would be sad, or putting us right back to recieving flak from other players as soon as we venture outside this Forum.

On a more personal note I'm a bit dissenchanted by the prospect of getting a new book as early as 'early 2013' because that means, in all likelihood, that whatever chance we had at influencing that project (yeah the 120 page thread on this board..) has probably passed us by.

I'm also afraid that whatever GW actually does it'll ultimately feel quite bland and uninspired compared what we've jotted together here on these Forums - but yeah that's just my own obsession and creativity coming back to bite me in arse I guess..

And yeah, if they give Daemons the unstable rule I'm not buying it. I'll conclude that right here and now. :)

always bit scared when GW redoes books as it is not always for the best ha ha

+1!

well, i've been following your massive thread on and off since about page 60, and i believe you are nearing completion... it might be an idea to contact games workshop with the finished product, because although they might not use the majority of the ideas contained therein they might be influenced in someway... at the end of the day, what harm could submitting it do?

Who knows, maybe GW will just try to pull our Lores in line and just give us a new kit or 2!
Or they will turn the function of Daemons on their heads, 'letters will no longer be the key or go to troop choice (I predict ASL), Fiends will have a 3+ units size and

PB's will be the new number 1 (Higher I maybe, giving them a fancy all rounder status since 'letters will be great weapon wielding fools) and I predict a heavy armor like upgrade, perhaps Scaly Skin 5 or 4+

Flamers become some horrible offshoot unit of Horrors much akin to weapon teams!

All troops will be costed at 10-12 due to being fancy undead.

GD's will make their way to TG like base sizes and have impressive mind blasting models that I just can't say no to, but will function like a gimp.

Seriously though, so far I have yet to be dissapointed with any of the books thus far. They seem to be in the mind of making players re-evaluate their armies and review the way they are played, sure some think it's a sneaky marketing ploy but honestly I can't picture them powning us too hard.

Daemons have gone from a Frequent sight in my neck of the woods to something best left for back ally's and brothels (here's looking to you Slaanesh) so I think it will be a bit of a nerf but with some boone in the shooting department (seriously have you noticed how every army is turning into a 3 Phase!?) So they may just go to work on it fairly and stick to the mindset that Warhammer is a Beer and Pretzels type game that needs a super villain to keep gamers curled up weeping at night!

@ Zhambah
Rest assured we are sending it in, and we'll be playtesting it too (first game tomorrow by the looks of it). And I already sent GW a printed letter about half a year ago supplying them with all the information they'd need in case they were even half-interested in 'lurking' around as we were working.
And yeah it can do no harm, I agree. And in the end you just have to be humble at the futility of a project like this.. I mean I'm not ignorant.

@Bonesaw
What you describe in terms of the units is exactly the kind of stuff that makes people scared, well at least some of us.
Unstable for Daemons is the most terrible idea ever. It's fluff-suicide. I cannot describe in allowed language my absolute aversion to that notion. I would prefer anything in comparison.. I'd prefer if Daemons were point-hiked by such an extreme measure we became the laughing-stock of the entire game in terms of 'power', I'd prefer going back to autopopping (as in HoC), anything but please not Unstable for the love of all that is unholy!
I know you seen me do this rant before. It's not about 'power' or pointcosts! Of course you could have Unstable Daemons and apply point-drops across the board and get a 'balanced' army out of that.. But it's just so 'unassociated' (to use Jervis's term), so damn wrong.

What you describe about BLs getting ASL and Plaguebearers becoming the new 'cream of the crop' is exactly (again) what a games Designer in his right mind absolutely shouldn't do either. I don't mean the "ASL" specifically but rather the general jo-jo:ing of internal balance.. Whatever was good before should suck now!
That would just be horrible - in the same way as Unstable would be horrible - not so much for the sake of external balance but for the integrity of the book.

I agree by the way that the new Army Books for 8th Ed have been good. I lament the lack of Army Specific magic items, but that's about all I can complain about. Daemons shouldn't be made worse or better intentionally, but just like the rest of the races they should keep what's unique about them (Instability and Gifts, most notably).

As far as deliberately overpowering some units as a selling-point goes, I've only spotted such tendencies with some of the 'brand new' units other armies have been getting.. And far from all of them I might add. With the 'already present' units they seem to have had a much more adult approach - with the slightly alarming exception of Ghouls that in my opinion were raised in cost at least a point too much (perhaps, yeah you're right, because every one and their mother loaded up on Ghouls at start of 8th Ed like there was no tomorrow.. or I should say 'no skellies' *bah*)

Same thing with GDs getting a dinner-plate for basefootprint really. I'd like to see them actually make a model (like that) that I'd buy. Just you try GW, just you try.. hehe

Bottom line is I agree a slight nerf is in order - for the specific stuff that needs nerfing (The Masque, Siren Song, master of sorcery costing half of what it should cost, despair icon..) - but it needs to be done with care and precision because if you actually look in our book we all know that the vast majority of our units actually needs buffs right now rather than nerfs.

And I agree that both Fiends and Bloodcrushers are looking like Special Choices in this Edition. ;)

i would like to see the idea in the 8th ed book where you deploy half your army then the other half appears on the board like 40k...that would be sooo sweet :P

Just imagine a friggin empire or ogre army with their fancy cannons with only chaff to shoot for the first turn or 2 then *POOF* "Holy crap cap we just got a whole bunch a' bad guys pop in right next to us" that would be awsome :D

I honestly think BL's will indeed have GW's and probably be 14 points come next book release, it's crap but it's probably going to happen...

yes... they will make horrors amazing so everybody will be buying them. It is not a conspiracy theory, it is really happening with all new books.

Great weapons and 14 points?
I understand the point you're making, albeit the exaggeration.. They wouldn't have to go that far to ruin Bloodletters.

*meh* I got enough of everything to make a 'cheesy' army if all their gonna do is shift the horrible internal balance around to cater to their quartely business sheets...

It's just.. As someone who is really infatuated with this army you just want more, know what I mean??
It's like, damn it, go ahead and make the whole Army suck just don't give me another volume of no-brainers and auto-excludes.

That's pretty much all we've been doing in that 120 page thread I mentioned earlier, by the way.. :)
Trying to make every choice hard, interesting and ultimately 'fun'.

EDIT

That's an epic idea Vaguely Sane!!
And if the other guys are right I guess I might as well start putting round bases on my entire army right now anyway.. :lol:

Incidentally, I know the given ETC 'comp' for your Deepstrike theory for Daemons in Fantasy:
Daemons of Chaos -
All units placed in reserve are lost and awarded as vp to the opponant!

I have wondered a few times whether the 40k play-style of Daemons could be transferred to Warhammer, as one of the things I like about their 40k incarnation is that they really are completely different from any other army. Having units essentially "teleport" onto the table en masse is probably pushing it for a game based around blocks of infantry though. :P

I don't see why a book has to have units that "discourage" you from taking them, that sounds like "internet wisdom" to me. Thinking of the VC book for example I can't see a unit in there I wouldn't want to use at some point. Yes some units will be better than others, but that's always the way and is often down to personal preference as much as anything else.

Anyway, turning back to the actual rumor, I would be surprised if a nex DoC book came as early as that, but later next year is a definite possibility. I remember on Warseer a short while back they were discussing books to be done this year and the ones that are coming after that, with VC, Empire and WoC being this year and then followed by Dwarfs, HE, DE and Daemons, which was pretty much confirmed by at least one of the more reliable rumourmancers, just not necessarily in that order (implication was DoC and DE could be other way round). If that is the case, my gut tells me AUG-OCT 2013 is a reasonable timetable. Codex: CD may come out simultaneously again, or may be a month or so earlier or later to try and prolong the interest in Daemons in general.

Another possible factor is looking at the 40k rumor threads to see what Codex's are coming next. Lots of conflicting rumours there but the current concensus seems to be Chaos Space Marines around October (which is when the plastic Plaguebearers will likely be released), and then Dark Angels, Tau and Eldar for next year. There are some people insisting DA or Tau will come this June, but I'm extremely doubtful of this. Either way, if all these other Codex's get released in a timely fashion, theres no reason Oct/Nov next year couldn't be free for a month of Daemons. :D :evil: :rock:

For most 40k Daemon players a new book can't come fast enough, they are in the same position as Wood Elves are in fantasy at the moment!! Hopefully 6th ed 40k will help reset the balance somewhat.... :rolleyes:

Would ASL stop you from taking BL's? It would just change their position in my army somewhat, PB's as anvils with smaller units of BL's as flankers. I'm not saying they would remove them just switch the way one uses them, the 14 and great weapons was just Doom Saying at its finest!
If you look at VC they changed the way Ghouls worked within the army, I no longer bring massive blocks of them to anchor my line (unless I'm playing a GK themed lists)

I can't see a point increase AND the addition of ASL. That seems counter intuitive to me. Though, what do I know. I'm just a lowly "beer & pretzel" style player. :P

I completely agree - HOWEVER ... I can see GW trying to make the most out of a new plastic kit of PBs by making them the new "auto-take" unit of a new book. Just sayin' ... Look at all the new books that have come out and the new plastic kits that came out with them: O&G got new kits in manglers and araknarocks (granted, anything O&G tends to be a bad example :P), TK - ok, again, bad example ... , OK w/ mournfang, ironblasters, thundertusks, and sabertusks, VC w/ crypt horrors, hex wraiths, and the new "buff-mobiles", Empire w/ demigryph cav and their "buff-mobiles" ... Ironic how the new kits/units are always the "cool new toys that work great". ;)

To be honest I can't see BL getting GW, I just can't. I can see them staying the same but being more expensive or be somewhat nerfed.

Well, judging by the Hardcovers that have come out I'm not concerned. Every book thats been released has not only revitalized the army but brought new and colorful options to the armies making them not only completely viable but competitive as well.

So with the demons book, for both fantasy and 40k, I'm pretty sure we won't be dissappointed, but I do believe that there will be drastic changes brought in to make the decision between Demonette and Bloodletter, and PB, and Horror much more a personal and tacticle choice than it is now.

Honestly, the sooner it gets here the better cause I want to see what, if any, new units we get and what kinda changes to the magic lore that there will be!

-Tremendous

+1

Yeah I agree with you Tremendous and I certainly hope that you're right.

We're not asking for much here, after all.. Just the 'same' treatment everybody else has been getting really.. :)

Well keep in mind that by GW doing what they've been doing with the hardback books fantasy is flying off the shelves.

You'd have to be a fool to think that they don't design these books with $$$ in mind. And thats excellent! Money is a great motivator for not only new models but new units to make all unit choices viable and desireable.

For instance, right now, for the most part, beasts of Nurgle are USELESS for competitive play. And even in friendly play... well, its best to leave them on the shelf. Not only that but by today's standards the Beast of Nurgle model is U-G-L-Y! So, in order to get some more bang for the unit's buck GW will HAVE to either seriously improve the Beast of Nurgle entry OR remove it entirely and release a new and "Better" Nurlge rare choice. Thus increasing not only desireability but practicality as well.

Want proof? Just open up and hardcover AB and take a look at their design and new unit / model options. All I can say for both is CHA-CHING! (Meaning GW is making $$$ off the new direction and the players are getting more bang for the buck from their new, more viable, AB's.)

Its win-win and 2013 can't get here fast enough!!! :D

-Tremendous

Tremendous,
I agree that 'making money' isn't a bad motivation!

But (to me) it will all depend on what that means.
In my world of thinking a book with improved internal balance, where every choice is interesting, lacking lackluster things like Beasts of Nurgle and grossely undercosted stuff like the Masque - would be the best thing GW could do (for themselves, for the hobby, for Daemon Players).

Others seem certain that there will be a shift of internal balance, Bloodletters nerfed into the ground while Horrors and Plaguebearers are made gods again, Flamers ruined while Seekers are made totally awesome - etcetera - and while I have the collection already to support such shennanigans it certainly wouldn't prompt me to re-invest into Daemons.

Let's take Plaguebearers as an example:
When they are made plastic, I'll buy myself 50-60 models.

If the book is awesome (more or less like 'our' book - haha) I'd seriously concider adding another 10000 points of stuff to the army.

If the book represents a re-arrangement of internal balance (such as Bonesaw and Eastern Barbarian described on the last page) I'll still buy those 60 PBs as well as whatever 'big gribblies' that I don't have already. But that's it.

Worst case scenario. Daemons get unstable, bloodletters get ASL and cost one-million-points-per-model, everything about Tzeentch magic is reduced to whispering fluff... Hell, I won't even buy the book. I have 5 others armies in our gaming group that I can focus on in that case - and my friends would probably be all right with continuing to play with the 'experimental' rules that we've created here.

Of course GW is not primarily looking at people like me. I get that. I'm already in their pocket, so to speak - but that also means, by the same token, that they are sort of in my debt.

I'm looking foward to a new book as well. Our 40K brethren are really needing one and a Fantasy DoC release that's done well (with integrity, love, respect!!) would be utterly awesome naturally. I think 8th Ed books so far have been quite good - so there's really no valid reason to start whining already.. :)

No offense DR, but your really negative. lol! :D I still love you man but your faith in GW is Zero. which... given some of the stuff they've done in the past I can actually understand.

However, Like I've said, using the released Hardcover AB's that are out they are by far the finest AB's the hobby has ever had. My faith that our Hardcover will not only be very balanced but incredibly fun to make lists with I hope will not go unrewarded. I'm sure there will be alot of change but ya know what? Change makes Dark Lord Tzenntch happy! :evil:

ALSO.... I heard a rumor in a few places on the interwebs and some webcasts that GW is going to release a FIFTH chaos God in the WoC book comming out at the end of the year. No one knows (Or at least I havent heard) what the new God will be a "God" over but just the idea of a fifth path has me excited. (If WoC get him we do too right?)

Now of course all rumors are 90% BS and 10% truth but if in fact we're getting a 5th Dark Lord I predict a full revamp of all the current Gods in order to maintain balance AND conherency (sp?) Not to mention all the fun new models I will get to spend my mortgage payment on! WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! :evil:

Anyway, Hopefully by this time next year you and I will go back to this thread and toss E-jabs at eachother as we relish our new Hardcover DoC AB! And then.... we shall take over the E-verse! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!! :evil:

-Tremendous

The feeling is mutual Tremendous.

And I don't want to come off as negative. I do have faith in GW, and I do agree with you about the Army Books so far in 8th Edition. Not to mention I'm a first-line fan of 8th Edition itself - greatest ever, period. (Actually don't want them to make a 9th Edition because I feel there's only down from here..)

I am just impressionable. I get so very downtrodden by reading what people say about Daemons on Warseer.. Getting stuff thrown in my face like Unstable or whatever other cute way they'd have of sapping most of the fun (not to mention every bit of power, of course) out of this army.

It just gets the better of me.

A Fifth Element of Chaos huh?
Isn't there some really old fluff in that direction? Some fifth god that has never been supported by a model-line but none-the-less mentioned in places?

malal... or malice... he was in the fantasy world... so to speak... even had one model put into production (not the god himself just a figure who worshiped him) then a guy left and took the intellectual property rights for him... shame really because malal was the chaos god that was most interesting to me... a chaos god that hated everything, even chaos... so it killed indiscriminately. actually the shadowdance trilogy by David Dalglish has a "bad god" as such that fits malal quite easily

whats got me, is that GW could quite easily introduce a new chaotic god... i.e. malal... just under a different name... I wonder why they don't? maybe they think, if it isn't broke don't fix it... plus they cant produce enough models to cover the army as it is, adding more would be problematic. I'm still waiting for a GW Herald of Nurgle... and how long have we been waiting for new greater daemons?

but I digress... I'll back to lurking until something peeks my interest lol

There have been mentions of minor Chaos Gods a few times in the background - The Horned Rat (Skaven) and Hashut (Chaos Dwarfs) are the only notable ones still around. There used to be one called Malal, a sort of anti-Chaos Chaos God, but he has been expunged from the background due to GW not owning the copyright on him I here. There have been rumours of minor gods in the CSM codex but not sure how credible the person who mentioned it was.

Personally, if Daemons got horrendously nerfed I would still play them, just not as often. I doubt they will become worse than they were in the HoC book anyway....

As for the army books being more balanced currently, I hope they carry on in that vein. While they may lose out on some of the money from bandwagoners that jump to the new power book, they will gain from the sustainablility of having a balanced game which is much better as a long-term business model. This is one of the reasons why I don't think any units will be nerfed to the point of uselessness. Less useful than currently perhaps, but not so bad you wouldn't want to include them from time to time. After all, what does GW gain from making Bloodletters a poor choice in gaming terms other than putting a lot of people off from starting the army?

EDIT - beaten to the Malal question by zhambah!

What they gain is making people buy new figs. They won't make the bloodletters terrible, but they could add new things to make them less attractive. For example, say they were releasing the plastic plague bearers at the same time as the book, and they nerfed letters slightly and buffed bearers. Well, heck! Gotta go buy some of them new plastic plague bearers because they are a little better than the two hordes of bloodletters i have.

From what I've seen of the recent AB releases, DoC will get a few new unit choices that are pretty good, a new large monster kit or two, and I would guess a new greater daemon kit (with chariot base included). The old stuff will still be good, but the new stuff will be better :)

$$$

I'm hoping for some large kit prospects, because all we have now are our greater daemons!

Having 5th good sounds quite farfetched to be honest. After all they have even games where the 4 gods themselves fight each other. They might mention it on the fluff, but I find it bit hard to believe that daemons would get one. WoC on the other hand might get it as one of the lesser gods as their culture, fluff and all are bit different and bit more like "dark vikings" or something.

I wouldnt believe that they would make Khorne bad either. After all that seems to be their favourite god, to the point that it actually pissed me off at one point. On every starter set in both games Khorne was the most represented, even over any other normal units. In 40k there was most Khorne berzerkers and on current battalion there is double amount of Khorne core units. By reading the fluff you can clearly see GWs love for the Khorne too. It must be number of skulls that makes them so fond of them =)

Animosity rules would sound bit unlikely too. First it was quite horrible, daemon animosity roll 1-2 made them fight each other, 3-4 made them do nothing and 5-6 they worked just fine. Next you could not get daemons of certain gods if you picked another. Having restricting rules like that would reflect harshly on sales which is my reasoning on why this wont likely work. Just think about it. If Bloodletters had opposing god at the moment, would you rather pick letters or other core daemons now? Rules like that would divide armies on two categories and stronger one would sell more making other one bad sale.

I can only speculate though, but I would think that there will be only slight points adjustment and at most restrictions like "No unit of this god can use LD of that other gods general" and so on.