Hello.

Well I´m Back. I have another tournament next weekend. 3k points. Problem is I don't have models for the list I want with 6 fiends, so I have the following 2 options which are actually quite similar.

List 1

Kairos.

The mask/ Blue scribes.

HoK, obsidian armor, BSB
HoS, siren song, torment blade.
HoT, spell breaker, MoS.
HoK, AoK, fire blade, Juggernaut

38 Bloodletters, full command, endless war icon.
23 Daemonettes, full command.
5 furies.

4 flamers.
5 flamers.
1 Fiend
5 Bloodcrushers, stander bearer, music.

2992 points total.


List 2

Kairos

The mask/ Blue scribes.

HoK, obsidian armor, BSB
HoS, siren song, torment blade.
HoT, spell breaker, MoS.
HoN, burgle staff (the one with the bound spell)

39 Bloodletters, full command, endless war icon.
23 Daemonettes, full command.
19 Plaguebearers, full command, re-roll to wound icon.
5 furies.

4 flamers.
5 flamers.
1 Fiend.
1 Fiend
1 Fiend
------------------------------------------------------------------------

It´s meant to be a hard tournament. It is like Hard Boyz qualifiers for my country.

First of all on both list same doubt, Blue scribes or the Masque? I think both give me some tactical advance over my opponent.

The Masque: could let me make a hard unit slow, hunt war machines (it is great at this) reduce Ld where kairos can also take the shadows spell and we have a nice Ld Bomb, hunt light cavalries, support units...

The Blue Scribes: easy, the extra dice for kairos. At 3k I guess people will bring magic, and having extra dice can always save the day, pretty sure VC will be around with plenty of IoN castings, .......

Now about the first list I think is more aggressive, you have to deal with the bloodcrushers coming at you , as well ad the bloodletters, and the daemonetes can hurts with Okamis Mindrazor, or just +1 to wound from fire or +1 S/ +1 T from beasts.

Second list is less aggressive but more resilient. It has fiends which can be used to protect Kairos (Am I right in this statement? If I place it in front of Kairos and he shoots a cannon at me and hits him, he may as well stop the cannonball), it has more chaff, It has a nasty combo, the staff with kairos dropping D3 some unit T can be a nice surprise right?

So, which one would you guys go with, and would you make any changes?

The only models I own I could add are 10 flesh hounds, 20 horrors, 3 screamers, and some nursling bases.

Thanks

i would stick those fleshhounds in two units of five and maybe drop one of the heralds- you have far too many characters there and not enough units. You also lack chaff and with 2x5 hounds you will have some more plus it will be actually quite hitty as well.
I would rather go for masque- blue scribes aint that good and with kairos and herald of tzeentch you alrsady have enough spells to cast.

So you would add in 2x5 flesh hounds, and drop for example the HoN and the plaguebearers? and how would you fit them in list 1?

The scribes are there not for casting, but to get one extra dice for every dice my opponent casts.

I would think about this, seems quite interesting.

Any more feedback please?

List 3

Kairos

The masque
Blue scribes.

HoK, obsidian armor, BSB, -2 Ld Icon
HoS, siren song, torment blade.
HoT, spell breaker, MoS.


39 Bloodletters, full command, endless war icon.
23 Daemonettes, full command.
5 furies.

5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds

4 flamers.
5 flamers.
1 Fiend.
1 Fiend

So this new list is taking into account some consideration.

I have removed 1 fiends, the plaguebearer unit, and the HoN.

On the other hand I have added, 2x 5 Flesh hounds, the blue scribes (I still think that if you go with kairos you really need the dice, and the banner of despair) the -2 LD, with the -1D3 of the masque can come in quite handy against units who would be steadfast against the flesh hounds or daemonettes, or against fear checks.

So what do you guys think?

When ever I play kairos I just have one other character , HoT BSB glory ( breaker and light or life)
;) for some reason by turn two the enemies have no dispel scroll left , they used them.
By which time my BL are in combat with no herald but then kairos cast timewarp 12"
Bubble. And again on all turns after.
It's not very friendly and why I only field him when asked . Not many tournament allow him in the building.

Here on some they allow special characters on some they don´t, if allowed, I field him with no regret as I know just the next guy is going to come with teclis, 2 or 3 x hell pit, 3 terrorgheist, hydras or whatever on a hard boys lvl tourney, so....

But do you not take more heralds because you think it´s a waste or because you think is cheesy?

I personally wouldn't take more heralds save the Hot BSB because if you lose
Kairos you can fall back on a sizeable army with a the HoT BSB light. This way you are then playing a 2400 army against what left of your enemy
.

Unless you run Death on Kairos I can't really see the point in taking a HoT at all personally as he devours dice like nothing I have ever seen... With Lore of Light Hounds make a great chaff unit get off the WS and Init 10 (Speed of Light?) and they can knock off a rank from your opponent while speed bumping or kill a Hero. I like list #3 as the -2 Bubble is IMO our best icon as average Ld armies suffer greatly and it can some times feel like a permanent Pha's, combined with the Mask it is just heinous. What about dropping Kairos and taking a beefed up KoS? Phantasmagoria in conjunction with everything else your running just snowballs into one of the damned beardiest things ever, stubborn units don't even stand a chance when you focus your Ld shenanigans!

No KoS because I have mine at my parents and it is not painted hehehehe.

I have run KoS more than once successfully, and I like it, but at 3k, I think also he is a bit defenseless against many cannons

Assuming you're still going with "List 3" I'd say it's looking fairly good.

I don't know why you're including the Blue Scribes. Not big on SC's myself but from what I hear the Scribes are not that great..

I'd definately put priority to making your FleshHounds and Furies unit size of 6 models rather than the 5 you have listed. You might call that a 'small' edit, but as far as I am concerned it makes them a whole let better.

The rest is looking good. Some of the worst cheese available to us:
Horde of Bloodletters, check.
Masque + Despair Icon, check.
Kairos, check.
Siren Song, check.
Multiple units of flamers, check.

Well Flamers are really just something "other people" concider cheese.. but still, the rest ought to make this list pretty "competative".

The scribes generate power dice every time the enemy casts a spell. That gives kairos a lot of dice to play with.

Yep, I have played many times with scribes and on some matches are not that useful but on others, they are great, imagine a Vc acting many IoN or whatever, you end up with enough dice to do damage with kairos for just 81 points, I think they are great.

About adding 1 flesh Hound per unit, is not something I can do model wise... I just have 10, and another more urgent needs on 40k of models than buying another 5 doggies, So I either go with a Unit of 6 or 7 and add more stuff or should I go with 2x 5?

Ah.. Ok I stand corrected about the Scribes then. The synergies of Special Characters is not one of my strong-points.

Also: You get alot of kharmic points for fielding only the models you actually have. That's good!

And hey as far as those extra FleshHounds goes; you have something to look forward to then! Once you do start fielding them in larger blocks than 5 I hope you'll notice the uncanny difference in what they can deliver. :)

Why is there so much difference from 5 to 6? is just 2 more attacks right? and well 2 more wounds

I don't really know! *lol*
Like I said before the difference looks minimal on paper.. But you'll be surpriced how their 'utility' and reliability is expanded with the addition of just that ONE extra model.
A subtle difference.. I guess it just helps them to score that extra one or two points of CR they need to reliably chew down the kind of medium/small sized units that are much more of a gamble to go up against with "just" 5 models.

So, at the end, what would you do, 2x 5 or just fields a 6 or 7, big unit and add some more chaff around and bodies?

For me personally:
1 unit of 6 and save the rest of the points for 'something else'.
Ever since 8th Ed I never field FleshHounds in other shapes than 6 or 12 (or 18!) and it's never backfired thus far.

Then again, I'm not a tourney-player.. ;)

Hello again.

Well not this weekend but the next I finally have this tourney. It has been postponed due to some problems at the store and instead they organized a smaller tourney at a club, 2500 no SC where I came in second with a keeper of secrets.

So back on this list, we agreed list 3 was good, but also, having tried the hounds, I do see why they are better on 6 big units so I have made a few changes, any opinion?

Kairos

The masque
Blue scribes.

HoK, obsidian armor, BSB, -2 Ld Icon
HoS, siren song, torment blade.
HoT, spell breaker, MoS.


39 Bloodletters, full command, endless war icon.
23 Daemonettes, full command.
5 furies.
5 furies.

6 Flesh Hounds

5 flamers.
5 flamers.
1 Fiend.
2 Fiends

So thing is, would you change obdisian armor from the BSB to khorne armour, (+35 e.p.) remove a fiend (+55) 5 furies (+60) = 150, plus 2 bloodletters to have another 5 hounds?

I could go for another 6, reducing one of the flamers units to 4, but I fiend flamers need to at lest be 5 to work.

Obsidian Armour makes that HoK BSB quite expensive.. But on the other hand your opponant is going to be rather desperate to get rid of that Herald so the extra protection might just be worth it.

I think the sort of changes you're talking about toward the end of your post is the sort of stuff that can really go on forever. Your list is pretty much bringing everything that's filthy about Daemons (and hey, good for you!) so whether or not 5 more Hounds will be a good decision is basically gonna be quite circumstantial.

Point 4 point Flamers are better than FleshHounds if that's what you're asking. ;)

What you probably could do is drop one of the Fury-units, make sure the other Fury-unit has 6 models in it, and then sprinkle the rest of those 60pts out across the roster (more Bloodletters wouldn't hurt, nor would 1 more Flamer).

so out the furies = 60 points

1 flamer = 35
1 fury = 12
1 Bloodletter = 12

something like that? that makes 11 flamers, nasty :D

Yeah I mean *lol* you're good to go, those changes are not going to bring a huge difference to the impact of your list (because it's already about as nasty as our book allows) but:
1- Your BL-Horde will be able to saturate One More wound in damage before losing its Horde Supporting Attacks.
2 - Your Furies will get the maximum attacks on any Warmachines assuming they haven't been shot up.
3 - You'll get to roll one more D6 for Flames of Tzeentch when frying Hydras etcetera with your Flamers.

All good things. Just watch your back as you cross the parking-lot on the way home.. ;)