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Title: 2500 pt Tourney List


brother_maynard - February 25, 2012 01:31 AM (GMT)
so i'll be going to an small, 3 game event on the 3rd that is going to have a lot of talent. its only 26 players but there are going to be several members of the US ETC team as well as a lot of top 3 GT* finishers, so the competition will be fierce. here is the list i'm taking (tentatively), let me know what you guys think. and yes, there will be battle reports of me getting smashed!

*mainly crossroads, conflict, onslaught, colonial (NE US)

Daemons of Chaos (2500 pts, flamers 0-1, loremaster 0-1, max 28 models per DoC unit, BSB can take banner or gifts)

Great Unclean One
Pestilent Mucus, stream of bile
level 4

Herald of Khorne
Armor, Firestorm Blade

Herald of Khorne BSB
Icon of Despair

Herald of Tzeentch
Spell Breaker, Master of Sorcery (light)

28 Bloodletters
FC, +D6" charge icon

28 Bloodletters
Standard, Muso

5 Furies

3 Nurglings

4 Nurglings

2 solo Fiends

6 Flamers

the most obvious weakness is the BSB. being a HoK with no gifts, he is definitely really squishy. the best choice is probably to swap him and his unit for a HoN and PB's but i'm hoping that challenges and copious amounts of reforms will keep him out of harm's way. i built a HoK BSB out of the chosen kit and bloodletters so i REALLY want to use him. i really like the BLetter blocks and i think in the end, the sheer aggression of running two with the despair icon will win the day. what say the Legion?

Noisy Assassin - February 25, 2012 06:58 AM (GMT)
I don't have any experience at that level of competition, but it looks like a strong list. Light is gonna rock pretty hard with it (and can even help keep the poor squishy BSB alive)

Kuwanger23 - February 25, 2012 07:40 AM (GMT)
As a. Daemon player I would love to hear the idea behind this force. Only two blocks? That seems scary. But like I said I am very new to daemons and haven't even had a game in with them. The GUO I understand him and the lore of life on the herald I also understand. When I look at this list and compare it to my vc list I am not afraid of it on paper. But things are different on the field for sure.

Noisy Assassin - February 25, 2012 03:10 PM (GMT)
Only 2 blocks at 2500 is actually pretty standard for Daemons.

Lord Tremendous - February 25, 2012 03:12 PM (GMT)
I have a few ideas for this list... and please keep in mind this is just MY opinion... there is ZERO need for 6 flamers. 4-5 is more than enough for this point level imo and if you reduce that unit by just 1 and lose both sets of nurglings you could have yourself a strong brick of crushers which is the only thing this list is missing... again... THIS IS MY OPINION!!!! ... flank support. Your Bricks of letters are going to perform, we all know this. Making your oppoents have to worry about the unit of crushers (STR 6, killing blow is much more worrisome than 2 small swarm units that will get burned off the field by turn 2 or 3) and HOPEFULLY make them mis-allocate resources that will give you the opening you need to really put it to them with your letters and such.

Yea... I know you have 2 1X units of fiends.... but those aren't really a threat imo, not like a brick of 4 Crushers would be racing up the flank, if you place them right it may give your opponent pause from charging your letter bricks due to the 4 slavering crushers ready to counter charge thier flank. (Or rear if your REALLY lucky) In fact, I would prolly drop the Fiends altogether or combine them.

My next suggestion (Not trying to be a **** just giveing my free advice. :D) is to lower your GUO to a lvl 2 wizard. With 2 wizards (And considering your Tzeentch caster is the one your going to want casting for the most part) you arent going to ever have the dice pool to justify the point cost. ALSO, with the points you save by doing this, Your BSB can now have obsidian armor which REALLY fixes up your BSB vunerability, You can have 5 flamers with one being a UC to give you a D6 at BS5, AND your 2nd unit of letters can have a FC.

Here is the breakdown on how I see this list. Feel free to ignore it or use it in parts however you see fit. :)

Great unclean one (General)
Lvl 2 wiz
Pest mucus
stream of bile

Hearld of Khorne
Flameblade
Armor

Hearld of Khorne
BSB
Icon of despair
Obsidian Armor

Hearld of Tzeentch
Spell breaker
Master of sorc (Light)

28 X Letters w FC
Banner of +D6 to 1st charge

28 X Letters w FC

5 X Furies

5 X Flamers with UC

4X Crushers with Musician

2X Fiends


This gives you SEVEN bigger, intimidateing units for your opponent to factor, all of the units (Minus the furies) are self reliant, and your points are better distributed with the big point carriers defended for the most part. It also gives you viable flankers on each side with your fast moving Fiends and brick or crushers as well as 2 casters more than capable of both casting AND dispelling those pesky opponent magic phases.

Sorry this is so long but I'm honestly just trying to help. If my suggestions offend or irratate I understand, please feel free to ignore my suggestions. :D

Again, this is FREE advice and you get what you pay for! Good luck in the tourney! :D

-Tremendous

bonesaww666 - February 25, 2012 03:13 PM (GMT)
Especially when your running a GD!

brother_maynard - February 25, 2012 06:45 PM (GMT)
I like the idea of that crusher unit but I think its just too easy to collect their points. The list as a whole is also much more vulnerable to cannons and light magic which I expect to see a lot of. Also the bsb gets either a flag or gifts so no armor for him. I like your ideas and will try them out eventually but having all those crusher points in a unit that's incredibly easy to kill makes me nervous. As for dropping the nurglings, i think i'm cutting it fairly close with the amount of chaff that i have as it is. if anything, i think i need more. the 2 bloodletter units and big papa have the killing power to handle pretty much anything, if i drop the nurglings it will really affect how well i can manage how and when my blocks get hit.

tor - February 26, 2012 01:28 PM (GMT)
Only 2 blocks at 2500 is actually pretty standard for Daemons.
Not sure If thats with the 28 model per unit cap.
I would like something more to, Id like one unit more to but I would go for Fiends or something from core. The Bsb Is squishy but as long as you remember that he doesnŽt have to be In a unit when the **** hits the fan heŽll probably live a long a prosperous life.

Lord Tremendous - February 26, 2012 07:32 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (brother_maynard @ Feb 25 2012, 01:45 PM)
Also the bsb gets either a flag or gifts so no armor for him.

I don't understand your statement here. According to the BRB, DOC book, and the rep at GW Demonic gifts are NOT considered magic items. (See the fluff in the DoC Rulebook) So if you put a magic BSB on your HoK he CAN have obsidian armor or any other demonic gift you have the points for.

Or is this another rule being forced on you by the place your tournament is at?

-Tremendous

brother_maynard - February 26, 2012 08:09 PM (GMT)
Yeah its part of the tourney comp pack, I listed them at the top of the army list. its actually a common restriction for daemons at larger events around here.

Lord Tremendous - February 26, 2012 08:56 PM (GMT)
Wow thats awful. They really handicap the army by limiting the rules. Meh, it is what it is I guess...

-Tremendous

brother_maynard - February 26, 2012 09:17 PM (GMT)
well to be fair, our banners are pretty horrific. even the overcosted (in our army) standard of chaos glory is obscenely good. i was testing it in this list before i added the despair icon and it made big papa even more disgusting than he already is. it really changes the way you use your greater daemon if you take enemy static res out of the equation.

Lord Tremendous - February 27, 2012 01:56 PM (GMT)
I dont know.... I mean its alot of points for everything which means our amry.... usually... is going to be realitively small (In compared with the others) and with 8th edition leveling the playing field a bit (Horde bricks, cant use Ward AND regen, steadfast, any toughness is wounded on a six no matter your STR.) I have seen a huge shift in GT's in my area. ELVES (THose filthy pointy eared freaks) have been dominating lately. Especially high elves with their ASF rule with great weapons. That is disgusting!

But to each region their own I suppose. Even with the army restrictions I would still join the tournament your playing in and try to be as competitive as I could. It would feel good to take it to the guys that usually place even with my hands tied behind my back and the judges shooting our army in the foot. lol!

Is there a website that states all the rule restrictions for all the armies or is demons the only one with any significant handicaps?

-Tremendous

brother_maynard - February 27, 2012 03:21 PM (GMT)
here are the restriction
http://www.thecolonialgt.com/Colonial2012/...tPacket2012.pdf

and I can understand dark elves dominating your tournaments but HE, really? Are there no skaven players to keep them in check? Lol

bonesaww666 - February 27, 2012 08:29 PM (GMT)
The list looks solid, if I were you i may look into trappings for your GuO just incase You run into that VC lord you were fretting about! Plenty of chaff... Scouting chaff no less! Best of luck, I look forward to hearing the Dark Deeds of your conquest!

The comp's don't seem all that bad, we don't get very many big tournaments around my parts (going all the way to Waterloo for the biggest one about) all models gotta be painted and I think the only SC not allowed is Kairos.
Best of all their is no comps but they discourage cheddar with a $400 prize for sportsmanship which list composition plays into...
All armies gotta be 100% painted to a minimum of 3 with bases completed, I'm hoping to have my Daemons ready but it's looking bleak. Mind I managed to paint a 2200 point VC list last year in under 3 weeks...

Is Teclis allowed? HE in the hands of a skilled General can still put the hurt on but I just can't see them outpacing DE...

Lord Tremendous - February 27, 2012 11:02 PM (GMT)
I dunno. I guess I'm spoiled out here. We don't have these comp restrictions. Generally Special characters aren't allowed but other than that just the normal rules found in the army books and BRB apply. You get to bring what you want and it really comes down to tactics and strat rather than trying to cripple people and force them to use other armies. But... like I said, if I was going to compete in your tournaments I'd prolly just suck it up and make a list to adhere to their restrictions. I guess it just eats at me when I see tournament runners messing with the rules everyone has to play by.

I mean to tell a DoC player he can only have 400 points to make his lord... well that pretty much kills anything but a demon prince... and then a very bare DP... yet the rest of the armies have no problem fielding whatever lord choice(s) they want. Actually, some of the restrictions flat out piss me off.. DoC armies cant take a Magic BSB and Demonic gifts yet VC can have a magic BSB and vampiric gifts... np?

IMO, there's a reason the army books are written the way they are. They aren't all supposed to play the same way. THey all have advantages and disadvantages because each race SHOULD play differently. DE's SHOULD have a bunch of hydras on the field and ogres should have a hellheart and a dispell scroll if they want it. If they pay that much for magic defense that means they have to skimp on offense and thats a HUGE factor when designing a list for competitive play.

I apologise for hijacking your thread. :) It just blew my mind that restrictions like this are so commonplace in other parts of the world. IMO it weakens the competition because when you go to a GW GT (If you go) you wont see those restrictions and be at a Severe disadvantage since, at best, you've been playing with your arms tied behind your back. (i.e. you arent used to seeing what you'll be up against in a GW GT)

More of my free opinions. I'll stop hijacking your thread... however, (Other than the Obsidian armor on the BSB) my suggestions to your list still stand. lol!

Good luck! I'm looking forward to reading your Battle reports!

-Tremendous

brother_maynard - March 10, 2012 02:15 AM (GMT)
Ok, the latest incarnation of the list looks like so, i just dropped one of the nurgling units for 2 solo crushers. one unit of nurglings is incredibly useful, i always had a job for one but with two, i struggled to find something that they could handle without being a waste. so i've dropped them for 2 solo crushers which i plan to put on chaff-hunting duty. this will release the fiends to really do some dirty things with that M10 and soporific musk! I'm headed to an uncomped 3 game event tomorrow (yes Daemonreign, there will be video reports :rock: ), to put the daemons to work! i was REALLY torn between this army and my beastmen, i hope i made the right choice...


Great Unclean One
Pestilent Mucus, stream of bile
level 4

Herald of Khorne
Armor, Firestorm Blade

Herald of Khorne BSB
Icon of Despair

Herald of Tzeentch
Spell Breaker, Master of Sorcery (light)

28 Bloodletters
FC, +D6" charge icon

28 Bloodletters
Standard, Muso

5 Furies

3 Nurglings

2 solo crushers

2 solo Fiends

6 Flamers

QUOTE (Tremendous)
I dunno. I guess I'm spoiled out here.

where did you say you play, Tremendous?

Lord Tremendous - March 10, 2012 03:32 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (brother_maynard @ Mar 9 2012, 09:15 PM)

QUOTE (Tremendous)
I dunno. I guess I'm spoiled out here.

where did you say you play, Tremendous?

I'm in Shreveport, Louisiana. Played in a couple of the Dallas, TX Lone Wolf GT's (Placed 15th my first year and tied for 10th the next... havent made it since due to work and wife) and make the rounds in my area. No ETC or any other restrictions.

Our rules are simple. No special Characters. Other than that the BRB details all the rules and usually there are scenerios.

And we play at 2500 points regularly.

Unadulterated fun! :D

-Tremendous

brother_maynard - March 11, 2012 02:13 AM (GMT)
ok so the list performed extremely well (duh) but i ended the day with 2 slight losses and a massive win. I lost my first game vs the chaos knight bus thats all the rage up here in the NE (he rolled divine greatness turn 2, ugh!), massacred an offshoot of olannon's dragon lord high elf list in game 2, and a slight loss to the legion of azgorh list in my final game. holy crap is the destroyer nasty! video battle reports to go up soon!

brother_maynard - March 11, 2012 10:58 PM (GMT)

tor - March 12, 2012 12:05 AM (GMT)
Good rep! Those Chaos Dwarfs are nasty and I agree on the Bullcentaur thing. I actually think that they will end up on 50mm bases.

zhambah - March 12, 2012 12:53 AM (GMT)
excellent battle reports as usual maynard, could i ask you a favour, could you take some pics of your furies, couldnt get a decent view on youtube =\

game #1 knight bus is horrible, i found lore of metal is the only thing that holds a candle, but then again thats just friendly play, and obviously light is more beneficial over all

game #2 your friend, to put it mildly, played horribly, he made pretty much all the wrong decisions when it came to combat, shame really, was hoping for a better game vs high elf, but you pretty much destroyed him

game #3 yeah the bull centaurs should of been on 40mm base size (Legion of Asgorh Bull Centaurs) i'm surprised they allowed them in a tournament on 25x50... ah well, and you really got unlucky at the end their... i usually save my flamers to pick off units that flee, or if the opponent tries to point denial by taking something out of the unit, its easy points usually, i personally would of cut my losses with the bloodletters and got the flamers the hell out of there, i know you never want to lose a unit. ah well, differently play style eh, anyway, great reports, keep 'em coming

brother_maynard - March 12, 2012 01:11 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
excellent battle reports as usual maynard, could i ask you a favour, could you take some pics of your furies, couldnt get a decent view on youtube =\


sure, here they are without paint on them- http://z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/inde...?showtopic=9350
i'll put more up when they're finished

QUOTE
game #1 knight bus is horrible, i found lore of metal is the only thing that holds a candle, but then again thats just friendly play, and obviously light is more beneficial over all


well i did some theorizing and i think my critical mistake was giving him the charge on the bloodletters. i should have thrown the GUO in his face and forced the knights to charge him or be charged. my general would have killed his BSB in the ensuing challenge and the combination of miasma and mucus should do a good job of destroying the unit even with the 3+ ward. my 2 bloodletter units would have been free to murder his army while the knights struggled with the GUO. without miasma, the combat lasts 7-8 rounds eventually ending in the knights favor, getting miasma through ends it in 1-2 turns with dead knights.


QUOTE
game #2 your friend, to put it mildly, played horribly, he made pretty much all the wrong decisions when it came to combat, shame really, was hoping for a better game vs high elf, but you pretty much destroyed him


lol, i agree, i took no pleasure in the victory. i played exactly as i would if he was some stranger though, the best way to learn tournament play is by experiencing it! and he pulled the list off the net- this report is reason #1 not to do that, he had no idea what to do.

QUOTE
game #3 yeah the bull centaurs should of been on 50mm base size, i'm surprised they allowed them in a tournament on 25x50... ah well, and you really got unlucky at the end their... i usually save my flamers to pick off units that flee, or if the opponent tries to point denial by taking something out of the unit, its easy points usually, i personally would of cut my losses with the bloodletters and got the flamers the hell out of there, i know you never want to lose a unit. ah well, differently play style eh, anyway, great reports, keep 'em coming


you're definitely right, i was just not ready for how nasty those bull centaurs are, i was still under the impression that redirecting the cannon/destroyer would allow me to save the unit... oh well, next time, thats right where the GUO is going. miasma + their profile = match made in heaven. i hope to cross paths with his chaos dwarfs again, with a little more knowledge of the army i'm sure i can take him down.

QUOTE
Good rep!
thanks tor

JonathanC - March 13, 2012 12:27 AM (GMT)
I watched the last one as I wanted to see what some other players were doing with their Chaos Dwarfs, as I've not used the new list much yet. While a lot of the stuff seems nasty you definitely pay the points for it (Bull Centaurs and Infernal Guard especially), only the Magma Cannons and K'dai Destroyer stand out as being potentially OP (OK, definitely OP in the Magma Cannons case).

I'm a bit non-plussed by the link Zambah posted though on the Bull Centaur base size, its just a poll on the CD site where the majority favour 40x40 bases - there are no hard and fast rules on it. Personally I'm leaving mine on cav bases until there is an FAQ ruling or FW bring out new (and probably bigger) models, in which case if the base size changes I'll happily follow suit. The generally accepted rule is "mount it on the base size it comes with" after all. I don't want to re-base them now and then find I have to do it again in 6 months time 'cause I chose the wrong size.

As to how well you did in that game, like you said yourself the main problem was you didn't use many of your support units very well. If you still had a Crusher or Fiend spare at the end they could have chased that last Centaur off the table, but I'm sure you realise this now. ;)




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