Hey guys, interested to see everyone's thoughts on what we'll see in daemon lists given the new ETC restrictions.

2400 Points.
No Special or Named Characters.
Army used can be any of the currently published GW Army books. Forge World based army lists & units may not be used on the event
A maximum of 3 identical core choices may be taken (regardless of equipment and other upgrades)
An army may have up to 5 war machines and template weapons. Warmachines that use a template count as a single choice in this regard. All template weapons (from magic items, abilities, etc.) count, except for spells.
Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).

Unit sizes are limited as follows:
Units cannot be more than 40 models nor 450 points (including all command, upgrades, magic items/banners). This restriction applies during the creation of the roster - unit size/cost may be increased during the game (for example - by joining characters to the unit). This restriction does not apply to characters.

Magic Restrictions:
- Apart from Winds of magic, an army may only generate 2 PD/DD per magic phase. Including channeled PD/DD.
- Player can use maximum 5 PD to cast spell (+ wizard level).
- An army may use up to 12 PD during each phase.
- You may have units/abilities that actually would generate more than 2 extra dice, but any excess dice are lost
- Some magic items/abilities count as generating dice toward this limit.
- “Count as” items/abilities may never exceed a cumulative 2 PD/DD per phase. This means that if you take the Book of Hoeth, you may not take any other items that “count as adding PD/DD”
- All modifiers are applied from the army list and will not change during the game.

Detailed description
Apart from winds of magic, an army may only ever add 2 dice to its power or dispel pool in each magic phase (unless army restrictions specify otherwise). Any dice added to the pool, regardless of source (generated, stolen, stored from previous magic phases, generated by magic items/abilities to boost spellcasting before or after the casting attempt, produced by spells, lore abilities, and so on) count. Excess dice are simply discarded and cannot be used in any way (i.e. - they can’t be stored).

If a dice is stolen from the opponent’s pool, but your army has already generated two extra dice, the dice is removed from the opponent’s pool and then discarded.

Some special items and abilities DECREASE the limit of power or dispel dice you can add to the pool. We refer to those as “count as” items. What this means is that, if your roster includes one “counts as 1 Power Dice (PD)” item, your army can only add 1 power dice (instead of the usual 2 dice) to the pool in each of your own magic phases of the entire game (regardless of whether the item is destroyed or used up).
Please note that you cannot have a combination of items that would decrease the limit of extra power or dispel dice to below zero.

Item restrictions:
- Any item that auto-dispels a spell counts as generating 1 DD each magic phase.
- Folding Fortress is not allowed

Army Specific Restrictions:

Daemons of Chaos: Max. 28 Models per unit;
Flamers are a 0-1 choice.
All daemonic gifts are 0-1.
Bloodletters and Herald of Khorne are 0-3 total.
Daemonic Battle Standard can take either daemonic icon or gifts.
Siren song cannot be taken by Herald of Slaanesh.
Master of sorcery cannot be taken by Herald of Tzeentch.

The real changes being the last two, which in themselves are massive. It basically means you won't see daemonettes at all and to get access to rulebook lores you'll need a LoC (big ask).

Since the changes must be taken in consideration with the meta you really should look at the other army specifications really. Dark Elves are even more strapped down.

But yeah, at first glance it looks brutal, but I think it affects most armies so hard to tell if to brutal yet.

Orcs and goblins had no restriction to unitsize, thats interresting.
LoC might get more popular? Tzeench herald will probably decrease
In popularity (don´t know why I wrote probably).
Delves and Daemons are heavily restricted I must admit that Delves
restrictions seems hardest of them all.

Well, atleast delfs are getting some kind of comps now, even though those comps wouldnt change my army at all =P

But wow, herald of Tzeentch cannot have master of sorcery at all! Thats pretty damn harsh to be honest. Why wouldnt they change it like delfs? They cannot have shadow or life for example. If that insanity goes through, I think that we will be seeing tons of caster GuOs there then...

No siren song on heralds either. Those two mean like Sherlocko said that there will be absolutely no daemonettes at all. No shadow/beasts to buff them and no siren songs. Well, now they have restricted our letters and daemonettes. They still have half of our core choices to ban. Go go go, I bet you can do it!

There is pretty awkward choises there too, like helfs who get extra 100pts and can use more magic dice. I dont think helfs were just that bad really. Lizzies have tons of restrictions too, I would even say more than on daemons, strange....bah, never mind. I wont go to that tournament, so no use bashing it =P

ETC.

Just.
Say.
No.

-und_ed

This may be a bit extreme, but ETC's organizers need to be shot in the head imo. What's the point of even fielding Heralds of Slaanesh really if you can't Siren Song with the herald? I mean, according to the rules you can only have one Siren Song anyway due to the gift limitations.

It's as if the ETC TO has deliberately structured the list in order to bend over Daemon players and to savagely take them over a nearby stool or something.

I need to stay away from these sort of threads, they make me (really) angry for some bizarro reason.

Humm, with given restrictions I came up with something like this:

It worked pretty well in non comped environment (it had some changes there). Basic idea is that LOC will boost everyone around him with timewarp and -1 to hit and whatever needed and will be also useful in combat himself. I actually managed to beat one Skaven army in round 3 with very similar set up. It resists shooting very well and Letters dont really need the herald since LOC gives them the buffs. So yeah, even though comps get insane, I could go with this.

EDIT: Forgot the command groups.

That´s a cool list! And by the looks of it, quite different than the usually cookie cutter but still pretty heavy. Nice!

@FeeZ: Agree on the last part of your post.

They say that picture speaks more than thousand words, so:

That would be picture from round 2 before melee phase. Fiends, furies and LoC are used to charge units behind the mainlines, so letters can then overrun and fight again. LoC provides protection from warmachines and boosts running speed with bironas. He uses Tzeentches will to get crucial IF and double wards, better dispell attemps etc if needed.

Since the army moves so fast, enemy hasnt got much time to react. In this particular case Skaven tried to avoid combat but didnt have enough time to set up redirectors or shoot units. LoC himself is pretty handy to be honest. His flaming attacks kill hydras, abominations and ghouls pretty easily and if needed he can boost his stats with light. Also, oldest trick in school but still fun. Furies can attack anything and with light of battle they will succeed all instability tests and hold even chosen horde in place ^.^

Just makes me glad that I don't play in such tournaments. But as Kitsune demonstrated, it is still easy to make a hard as nails list. Which will just become the next cookie-cutter until the next round of nerf-batting. And so the cycle of stupidity continues...

wow, they really are trying to make it a different game. and once again, ETC made greater daemons even more powerful. that is a great list Kitsune, i pretty much HAVE to get some furies now lol.

can someone put up a link to the entire rules pack?

nevermind i found it. looks like i will be taking my beastmen to any ETC event i go to this year. are they insane? +3 power dice for herdstone spam AND 200 extra points?!

EDIT:

dare i say it?




















































Daemon prince?

No!

Bad Kitsune!

Do not feed into the madness of ETC garbage. Every time you innovate a way to work within this absurd set of comp restrictions, you help validate the morons who push this kind of crap. (Well done, by the way)

Just.
Say.
No.

-und_ed

They're a bunch of losers these ECT people. *haha*
It's like they don't understand the game at all.
5 WMs per army is not a restriciton at 2-whatever-thousand points.. Morons.
You can't equate the Book of Hoeth with a Dispel Scroll with a Power Dice.. Idiots.
And Daemons might as well not be allowed if its all gonna be poorly concealed Whineseerite bias.

And I'm soo tired of the European player base that seemingly just takes this **** up the *** without revolting.

It's just like Und_Ed says above: Just Say No.

EDIT
And it's really funny but I didnt see Und_Ed's 'newest' post until I posted. So let me just go "QFT!" and be done with it. :)

Let me just say that the ETC is a fantastic experience.

For the restrictions, they are there for a reason... mainly because of the T in eTC... The event is a team tournament, so it works differently from a normal singles tournament.

And I'd be OK with that if it weren't for a couple of things:

1) It purports to be an 8th Ed Warhammer tournament (which it is so ver, ver far from)
2) It tries to be the pinnacle of Warhammer achievement.
3) Many countries use it as the standard for the comp in their internal tournaments

If they cannot play 8th Ed in a team event, their problem is in the structure of their team tourney, not with Warhammer, and the solution should be to remedy the problem area (ie the team tourney structure)

-und_ed

I could accept it - philosophically - if the restrictions were exactly equal for all races.

The general restrictions are not that insulting. For example saying that no units may be bigger than 40 models or cost x amount of points.
It's when they go beyond that and go 40 models for everyone except Daemons who get 28 that they just lose me. I stop taking it seriously. In the least.

I know ECT is meant for Team-play. What I don't understand is what difference that's supposed to make.

Things like just blatantly over-ruling Army Books and for example saying that Daemon BSBs must choose between Gifts and Icon - well that's just petty jealousy. Nothing more. It isn't balance, it's just silly.

And if the Book of Hoeth is allowed no other item (not even the Folding Fortess) deserves even the slightest nerf.

But yeah, respect to Squig Hopper for stepping up in defense of ETC. Personally I am 100% sure those 'team-events' would have been just as delightfull with other comps, or no comps, and the fact that they are fun is rather in-spite-of rather than thanks-to these restrictions.

It's my belief, which I believe pretty badly I'm afraid. In addition I think that deep down inside the mind of whoever comes up with these comps sits an angry little 3-year-old who wishes he was Jervis.

And thus my allergic reaction. Without any practical experience what-so-ever. :)

1) It purports to be an 8th Ed Warhammer tournament (which it is so ver, ver far from)
I can understand this argument... As I said, the ETC has some unique context because it's a team tournament with almost 300 players... So, some rules must be applied diferently... The implications of this are too numerous to debate now for my currently lack of time and english skills... ;)

2) It tries to be the pinnacle of Warhammer achievement.
What's your definition of Warhammer achievement? It's the biggest international tournament, that counts?

3) Many countries use it as the standard for the comp in their internal tournaments
That's their problem, not the ETC rules... :D

Look... this is getting a little OT. I'm not trying to defend the options that were taken. Mostly because I didn't go in 2011, so I have no ideia of how it went, and the reasons for the change. What I'm trying to convey is that, contrary to what appears the popular belief here, the people behind the event are far from "losers" or "morons". The rules have a context and a concept behind. Trying to apply those on your everyday Warhammer experience will give you a poor indication of the actual intent... I think a more open mind is probably needed. My 2c...

I believe this has been debated so much that people feel sick about it already, but most important reason for ETC comps are the pairing system where you get to choose your opponents. For that reason lists need to be extremely even with each other, since otherwise you could make easy draw points denial lists and other paper rock scissor lists. I believe none would have anything negative to say about those comps if those who play ETC tournaments actively wouldnt force their comps to other tournaments as well. They organize non team tournaments with ETC rules and demand everyone else to use them as well to get people exited about ETC and thats where many get upset. I would think that not many would have problems about ETC if the ETC fanatics wouldnt be pushing the comps to "normal players" faces all the time only that they can practice upcoming tournaments. And sure there might be some kind of balance in ETC comps even though they have mutilated warhammer, but thats the other reason I dislike them; ETC just doesnt feel like same game anymore.

You're probably right. :)

What Kitsune said about about choosing your opponant(s) in these events does come a long in explaining some of the parts of ETC restrictions.

But I stand by my conviction that Army Specific Restrictions should be avoided. When it comes to Daemons the only cap I can even half sympathize with is the cap on Flamers (0-1) - while all the other Army Specific restrictions are just blatantly rubbing in my face that I don't want to try this type of game no-matter what the meta is.

Oh well.. Coming from this secluded little gaming group, and never venturing ourside of the safe confines of that group, I really don't know why I get so worked up about this stuff.

Sorry Squig Hopper, meant no disrespect.. Hope I didn't come off as a douche.

I didnt ask for people to b!tch and moan about the comp. if you don't like it don't play it. What I asked for is OPINIONS ON LISTS.

I would need to see all the other restrictions placed on other armies to give you a better guess on what you might be seeing.

Flamers as 0-1 means you'll see a unit of 6 Flames for sure, probably a chunk of Fiends (plus maybe a solo fiend) as well. Given the loss of Loremaster on Tzeentch Heralds, I could see Spellbreaker heralds chilling with Flamers using the shooting gift to add to their fire power.

The hefty nerf on Slaanesh and Tzeentch Heralds and 28-headcount limit would severely limit the use Daemonettes and Horrors. Really, unless there's something fancy going on, I'd imagine every list would revolve around Bloodletters and supporting Khorne Heralds.

With Loremaster taken off of Tzeentch Heralds, I'd expect to see Lords of Change - probably left as just Tzeentch masters to use a battery of magic missiles and fish out for the opportunity to use Glean Magic.

So I'd agree with other posters here and figure that Lord of Change would be the way to go given all the other limitations. I'd probably think Furies and Nurglings would be rampant for their redirection shenanigans.

Maybe try posting a list of your own and ask for opinions on it N.I.C.K? Are you planning on attending an ETC-style event or adopting the comp for your gaming group? As you've seen some people have very strong feelings on ETC so this thread was bound to attract a lot of negative comments.

Speaking from my own experience, I went to an ETC-style event last year at Maelstrom Games (using Daemons) and can't say I enjoyed it that much, although it was mainly the first and last games that irritated me and these tend to affect your opinions the most. Nevertheless, I was thinking about going to the event again next month because some of my friends were interested (using Beastmen, because I knew the DoC comp would be OTT even before it was published) but am unable to make it.

If it wasn't for the Master of Sorcery restriction I could take the same list as last year, but apparently by ETC standards a single Herald with loremaster (Beasts) could lead to unblanaced games (my results from last year would seem to disprove this theory). Its like as Kitsune said, they could have restricted them from taking the most popular lores but left it as an option but instead they just did a blanket ban to stop anyone who likes to do things a little differently from having their fun. I said as much in my feedback to them following last years event (which I got duly flamed for, of course) in that while I could see the sense in some of the restrictions, many of the rulings were too arbitary and were not being applied in an intelligent manner. For example, rather than 0-1 Flamer unit, why not max 6 Flamers in the army? We all know that its 5+ units of Flamers that are the problem, so why would taking 2 units of 3 (or even 4) be that much worse when they are easier to deal with and less threatening? Like I say, a lack of intelligence and creativity at times with these restrictions.

As for what list I would take, I would just scale up my usual army but again it falls foul of the MoS on a HoT restriction (using the hideously powerful lore of Metal this time) and removing it would change the way my army works a lot. Also I'd have to combine my two units of 3 Flamers into one unit of 6. Anyway, this is what I came up with:
Keeper - lvl3, Siren Song, Soul Hunger
Herald of Nurgle - BSB, Stream of Bile, Slime Trail, lvl1
Herald of Slaanesh - Etherblade
28 Plaguebearers - Full Command, Standard of Seeping Decay
24 Daemonettes - Full command - Banner of Ecstasy
10 Horrors - Musician
3 Nurglings
6 Flamers
5 Fiends
Probably not as good as Kitsune's list but I think it could do OK. I'd miss the magic versatility a bit though.... :(

EDIT: Actually, having read toonces post above which crossed with mine I think I might change the above somehow to get a Herald of Tzeentch with Spellbreaker in there. With any luck he'll roll up glean Magic as one of his spells.

You did and also got some opinions on the lists, but just like Jonathan said, ETC tends to heat people up and for a good reason too. For your convinience I picked out trends that will likely happen from posts.

So there we have it, opinions on lists and what we might be seeing a lot on the tournament. To simple it down, it is very likely to see greater daemon leading the army because herald armies are nerfed so badly (number of khorne herald, no MoS on Tzeentch, no Siren on Slaanesh etc.). And from Greaters I would believe that Khorne one would be the least popular due to MoS nerf. Not many will prefer few magic bolts instead of proper lore of buffs and mass destruction.

In core Bloodletters and Plaguebearers will likely increase because Siren song is banned and thus there is not much reason to pick Daemonettes (letters just do the same thing better) and because 28 models restriction prevents making proper casting unit of horrors. Furies will be popular just like last time.

Special units, mainly hounds and nurglings will likely see some kind of increase in numbers. This is because Daemonettes will be getting nerfs and people want to field something fast and destructive. Since shadow is nerfed or limited a bit in general with other armies, Nurgling invasion spam would actually be really powerful (big nurgling anvils that are boosted by nurgling invasion GuO).

From rare section 6 flamers will likely be common choise in most armies. This is because ETC restricts unit sizes and many small units will be seen. Both Juggers and Fiends will likely be popular choices too for the same reason. Many armies have hard time dealing with big jugger units due to comps and that was seen well in last years tournament. Both single juggers/fiends and big units will likely be seen.

And just because i'm bored, I'll post a draw list based upon nurglings:

This list will stall big dangerous units with furies and Nurglings and will constantly create more Nurglings with infestation. GuO will take out big monsters with miasma and two letter blocks will fight unit at time while others are held in place. This list can be tweaked a bit more to have 3 units of Nurglings and/or more single fiends. Also one more magic level can be given to GuO for more chances to get plaguewind. This list is extremely annoying to play against since everyone is stubborn and nurglings keep popping when you kill them. One would think that in ETC environment where draw games can be really powerful, this would be viable option also.

So Nick, lets hear your opinions too ^.^

Wow. Just wow.

Perhaps you should phrase this a bit better next time, because people did put their opinions down...

I think I'll take a bit of a hiatus from this board, people like Nick who post their messages like this above apparently irritates me more than people who put 'outlandish' restrictions at ETC, especially since people who are apparently bitching about the ETC lists have voiced their opinion...

Started a new job recently, so I'm coming home tired etc. Apologies to moderators if I'm crashing into the lines of 'impolite.'

To be fair, I'll be the first to admit that that my posts on this topic (as is often the case) could easily come off as bitching and moaning. But can you blame me? These ETC restrictions seem to be the product of a kind of thinking that makes the unfounded (especially in 8th) Daemon-hate on Warseer look reasonable and fair.

I'll readily admit totally missing the point of this thread. Sorry Nick. Honestly. This topic just blindsights me. With nerd-rage. It makes me wish there was a staterun institution who could show up at people's doorsteps and ban them from the hobby when-ever they're willfully being a pain and headache for all of us who enjoy Warhammer for exactly what it is - and in any case all of us who'd be humble enough to admit that even though Nothing is perfect who's to say I'm the guy who can fix things.

Perhaps the biggest reason why comps usually makes my blood boil: I can't get over the fact it's just the whims of some guy. And I know the GW oldtimers are essentially just some guys too (Jervis, Ward, Cruddace, meh..) but you know what I mean..

I did say some things earlier in this thread that could very well be seen as inflamatory to anyone who doesn't actually agree with me. I'm not proud of that. And so I apologize, again. :)

Also, for the sake of it. This is a draft. It has not yet been voted on and will most likely be edited. And I guess we can theorize all we want, if teams are still bringing deamons to the event then it is hard to argue that the restrictions are too hard, so time will tell.

So on topic, anyone else thought about taking dual princes for some bad ass miasma spam? :P

Mm yeah, that was bit rude from Nick, so mind your language in future. And everyone else too, lets try to stay civilized like always =)

Sherlocko: Dual princes? Heh, no. I have played corona soul hunger princes on fluffy lists sometimes and even there they didnt impress me much. Sure they can deal tons of damage, but they cost way too much and deal so little damage.

Those are some good points there Sherlocko - it is subject to change and Daemons were quite popular despite heavy comp last year. If Daemon players can work around this then the popularity of the army won't diminish much.

I don't think the Dual Prince trick will work though unfortunately, as taking 2 will use up all your lord allowance before you can buy them gifts or magic levels.

Just to add:

High Elves: High Elves armies have an extra 100 points for their roster (2500 total); High elves army can generate extra 3 powerdice instead of 2; Vortex Shard counts as +1DD; Book of Hoeth counts as 2PD and 2 DD; Banner of the World Dragon counts as +1 DD

How can we deal with that if we have onyl one dispel gift?

Nah, I was not that serious. Just thought it was kind of the only way to get acces to more than a single BRB lore. :)

How about 8 Fiends and Shadow or Light LoC? Thats probably the closest thing to a Deathstar you can bring. Cannons Is actuallt better with ETC LoS rules.
Perhaps four Flamers and some core. Not an army at all but probably given the right matchup powerfull. Would perhaps be more effective with Death, for Doom and Darknes and Soulblight.

8 fiends did well under last comps and would likely do well now too but would require that LoC to buff them a bit. Juggers are tough as nails too since there is much less shooting and smaller units in ETC. I like to play with idea of 8 juggers too, tough it wouldnt probably work that well in game.

I´m not sure what you mean? Max 6 Juggers and then you have no Commandgroup.
6 And mus and two Heralds?

Ah yes, there was points cap to units. Then 6 would be quite max size. I wouldnt waste expensive jugger heralds on that unit, mighty as unit like that might sound =)

Might makes right :)

Hmmm...unit of 8 Fiends plus a Shadow LoC...this just sounds fun in general.

ok, so i ran into a fellow at templecon today already tweaking his ETC list and this is what he was running-

level 4 GUO with mucus

HoT with wings and spell breaker

HoN BSB with icon of despair

HoK with firestorm blade and armor

28 bloodletters

27 plaguebearers

2x5 furies

2 fiends

1 crusher

6 flamers

he was using it very well, the caster GUO is a great choice at 2.4k. what do you guys think? i'll be posting a report of my game with him sometime next week if anyone is interested.

I apologize if my comment came off a bit harsh. A thank you goes out to those who have posted lists, thoughts and have kept the conversion positive. I just get sick of people constantly going off on tangents and just ranting about what is wrong with a comp system rather than responding to the initial question and being constructive.

Personally, I think a lvl 3/4 GUO will be common. Back up by 2 x 28 Bloodletters, flamers, fiends and various chaff to fill out the rest. I wouldn't be surprised to see a lvl 2 herald of tzeentch with the standard of sundering. I think the LoC definitely does become more attractive under the current restrictions, whether he'll outshine the GUO for first choice remains to be seen.

i did play in an event over the weekend that used the old ETC restrictions and a lot of DoC players further comped themselves by bringing lists made with the latest draft in mind. caster GUO was used by everyone but me (i took spirit swallower keeper). to be honest though, i think LoC might be the new way forward for me personally, as he's nearly as dangerous as a caster GUO in CC, but can fly and gets much better magic. this is the list that i will be testing out:

LoC
level 3 with death and tzeentch's will

HoN with despair Icon

HoK with armor

HoT with wings and spell breaker

23 bloodletters
FC, endless war

23 plaguebearers
FC, seeping decay

2x3 nurglings

6 flesh hounds

1 fiend

5 flamers

it won't have as much hitting power as LAV-kitsune's list but its basically the ETC incarnation of the LD bomb. although i think there may be some good mileage in a level 4 keeper with a siren song as well. basically, GD's are now mandatory, which is fine because they rock in ETC anyway.