TheRealVeon's PDF-document (work-progress 2.0 version) is found here:
PDF Download (11th July 2012)
* A summary of this Project also exists further down in this thread-post, invariably a bit more 'up to date' compared to the PDF although not as nicely presented!
* The 1.0 version of this re-write was printed in full-color high quality format (4 copies made) - and one of these copies were sent to Jervis Johnson at GW Design on June 8th 2012 - together with extensive 'Designer's Notes' and a small 'Errata'.

A New Dawn!
So Matthew Ward wrote us another Daemons of Chaos Army Book for 8th Edition and - just as expected - it was not a carbon copy of the Project that we submitted to Games Workshop a few months earlier. There are some details in the official book where our own re-write happens to coincide (for example: Inspiring Presence being restricted on a Mark-By-Mark basis) but generally speaking (and since the official book did not follow the design-philosophy hitherto standardized in 8th Edition) the official book is very different.
We have taken the decision to complete a 2.0 version of this re-write that is essentially compatible with the model-releases that came with the official book - while the integrity of our own original mission statement will remain intact (i.e. our re-write is an update of the previous 7th Edition Army Book, not a revision of the newly released 8th Edition rendition of Daemons).
While the 1.0 version had the ultimate aim of submitting suggestions and ideas to Games Workshop, the 2.0 version is purely a prestige Project done on our own behalf (and indeed, any Daemon-players blessed with a gaming-environment that allows 'house-rules' like these to be 'playtested').
This thread used to exist in the Dread Legions Main Fantasy Sub-Forum on this board, however upon the release of the official 8th Edition Army Book the decision was taken by moderators to pin this thread so as to avoid it getting mixed with the plethora of threads dealing with the official book.
All input from any and all interested parties are still welcome in this thread! This is a 'design-by-committee' Project - as such with inherent strengths and weaknesses - and the whole idea have Always been that the final result will be an Army Book that represents as many people's ideas of what Daemons should be like as possible!
-DaemonReign.

Play-Testing:
1. Daemons vs Empire 4000pts (DaemonReign)
2. Daemons vs WoC 2400pts (JonathanC)
3. Daemons vs Vampire Counts 2500pts (DaemonReign)
4. Daemons vs OnG 8000pts (DaemonReign)
5. Daemons vs DE 10000pts (DaemonReign)

Current Topics of Discussion on last page:
Matt Ward's new [official] Army Book has been released and it will certainly have some impact on the final version of this Project. This is what we're gearing up to dive into right now.

From this point: The actual re-write!
As our revision of this re-write progresses we've begun color-coding new 'edits', this is mainly to make TheRealVeon's work easier but can also be of value to new-comers as this color-coding shows how Games Workshop's releases have influenced us (and vice versa!).
Everything written in 'White/standard' text below is the 'original 1.0 draft'.
Everything written in red text are edits influenced by the White Dwarf patch for Daemons in August 2012. Orange colored text are edits influenced by the Warriors of Chaos Army Book being release in early 2013, and text colored green are the *present* edits made in response to the official Daemons of Chaos Army Book released for Fantasy in February/March 2013.


DAEMONS OF CHAOS
IMPORTANT NOTICE: Below is the work-in-progress draft of this Project where we gather all edits that later on goes into TheRealVeon's PDF document - thus details below may vary more or less from the PDF at any given Point in time. It is also important to remember, now that the 8th Edition Army Book has been released, that this Project is rooted in the previous 7th Ed Army Book in terms of stats for units - and only 'changes' to those profiles are listed below

Army-wide rules Summary:
Daemonic Instability as per 7th Edition Army Book.
Daemonic Aura (5+ Army Wide Wardsave), Magical Attacks (Ranged/Combat+Stomp).
'Inspiring Presence' - The Daemon in question must be of the same Mark as the General to benefit from Inspiring Presence. Furthermore; Unmarked Daemons benefit universially from Inspiring Presence and if a Daemon Prince without Mark is elected General it confers its Inspiring Presence on all Daemons regardless of their Mark.
In addition to being 'Daemonic', the vast majority of Daemons also belong to one of four main Chaos Gods:
"Daemon of Khorne" = Hatred (Daemons of Slaanesh), Magic Resistance (1),
"Daemon of Nurgle" = Hatred (Daemons of Tzeentch), Poisoned Attacks.
"Daemon of Slaanesh" = Hatred (Daemons of Khorne), Armour Piercing*.
"Daemon of Tzeentch" = Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle), Flaming Attacks**.
* Stomps/Thunder Stomps and Impact Hits made by Daemons of Slaanesh are treated as Armour Piercing (1) unless otherwise noted.
** Stomps/Thunder Stomps and Impact Hits made by Daemons of Tzeentch are treated as Flaming.
Command options are 10pts each, unless otherwise noted.

~~~~~~~~CORE:
Bloodletters 13pts/model
Options:
1. Blessing of the Bloodgod +1pts/model: MR2
2. Battlehardened +2pts/per model: Heavy Armour (5+ AS)

Daemonettes 11 pts/model
Options:
1. Furious +1pts/ per model: Every '6' rolled To Hit doubles the Hit.
2. Supernatural Sprint +2pts/ per model: Unit and joined characters are subject to the Swiftstride Special Rule.

Plaguebearers 12pts/model
Options:
1. Cloud of flies +2pts per model: Opponent gets -1 to hit with melee attacks.
2. Nurgle's Rot +2 points/model: Every model in base contact with the unit at the start of each round of Close combat takes a Strength 1 hit, allowing no armour saves. *As per Gift*

Horrors 12 pts/model
Stats/Special Rules as per 7th Ed Army Book.
Options:
1. Crackling Explosions, 1 point/model = When a Horror is slain in close combat it deals an automatic Flaming Hit on which-ever model killed it, using its own Strength value at the time of its demise. Note that casualties caused by Instability does not cause such Hits.
2. Windcatchers, 1 pts/model = In each friendly Magic Phase this unit of Horrors may Channel Power Dice per 'Size-Level' (i.e. 1-4) instead of just once. Note that the Windcatchers upgrade has no effect for purpose of Channeling Dispel Dice.
Pink Horror Magic Chart:
Level 1 - Flickering Fire
Level 2 - Gift of Chaos
Level 3 - Bolt of Change
Level 4 - Tzeentch's Firestorm

PlagueToads of Nurgle - 24pts
*See: Forgeworld Experimental Rules!*
(50x50mm base)
M6 WS3 BS0 S4 T4 W2 I1 A2 LD5
Unit Size: 3+
Unit Type: Monstrous Beast
Special Rules: Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Marsh/Swamp Strider
- No Command.
Options:
1. Cloud of flies +5pts/model: Opponent gets -1 to hit with melee attacks.
2. Corpulent Bulk +3pts/model = Regen 4+.

~~~~~~~~SPECIAL:

Furies 11pts/model
May take one of the following upgrades:
Mark of Khorne, *free* = Hatred (Daemons of Slaanesh), Magic Resistance (1),
Mark of Nurgle, 2pts = Hatred (Daemons of Tzeentch), Poisoned Attacks.
Mark of Slaanesh, 1pt = Hatred (Daemons of Khorne), Armour Piercing.
Mark of Tzeentch, *free* = Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle), Flaming Attacks*.

Flesh hounds 35pts/model
Add Devastating Charge (+1 attack on Charge) into base-cost.
Optional Upgrade:
1. Ambushers +5pts/model: Ambushers Special Rule.

Screamers 30 pts/model
Wounds and Attacks increased to 2.
UnitSize:2+
Slashing Attacks: In the controlling player's Remaining Moves Sub-Phase any unit of Screamers may perform Slashing Attacks against a single enemy unit. Any enemy-unit touched by a unit of Screamers flying over them suffer a number of S5 Flaming Hits equal to the number of Screamers in the unit, distributed as a Shooting Attack. An enemy-unit occupying a building cannot be targetted by Slashing Attacks, however, such a unit inside a forest can be targetted although the Screamers must then take a Dangerous Terrain test.
No optional upgrades.

Nurglings Unit Size: 2-12
Stats unchanged from 7th Ed Army Book.
- No optional upgrades.

Seekers 20pts/model
1. Furious +1pts/ per model: Every '6' rolled To Hit in CC doubles the Hit.
2. Rending Claws +2pts/ per model: Cancels armour save when rolling 6 ToWound.

Pox Riders of Nurgle - 38pts/model
"The Forgeworld models..."
Plaguetoad also mount-option for HoN.
Combined profile: M6 WS3 BS0 S4 T4 W2 I1 A4 LD7
Unit Size: 3+
Unit Type: Monstrous Cavalry (6+ armour save)
Special Rules: Daemonic, Poisoned Attacks, Marsh/Swamp Strider
Options:
1. Cloud of flies +6pts/model: Opponent gets -1 to hit with melee attacks.
2. Nurgle's Rot +6pts/model: Every model in base contact with the unit at the start of any round of Close combat takes a Strength 1 hit, allowing no armour saves. *As per Gift*

Fiends 55pts/model
Unit Size: 3+
Options:
1. Scorpions, +4 points/model = If in base contact with the enemy the Fiend may roll one of the attacks on its profile separately: This attack is assumed to have Strength 5 as well as the Armour Piercing & Poison Special Rules.
2. Striders, +3pts/model = Strider Special Rule.

BloodCrushers 70 points/model.
*Bloodreaper upgrade costs 15pts instead of the usual 10pts.
Juggernaut has 3 wounds.
Juggernaut has 3 Attacks, 'Brass Behemoth Rule' confers a +2 to Armour Save.
Unit Size: 3+
*Note that Juggernauts get +1 wound but no longer have KB!*
Options:
1. Battle-Hardened +10pts/model: Heavy Armour.
2. Blessing of the Bloodgod +3pts/per model: MR2.

BloodChariot of Khorne 140 points.
Stats as per 7th Ed Army Book.
+ 'Scythed' Special Rule.
2 Bloodletters as Crew.
Crew Options
1. Blessing of the Bloodgod +15pts/model: MR2
2. Fury of Khorne +15pts/model: Devastating Charge Special Rule.
Chariot Option
'Chosen', +45 points/model, +1 Jugger (+1 Wound, +2 S5 A).Also option for Herald Mount Type, and note that when taken as a Character Mount the character replace both Bloodletters.

Burning Chariot - 100 points/model
Stats as per 7th Ed Army Book
Add Flaming Attacks for All the Chariot ('Daemon of Tzeentch').
Add 'Featherweight Craft' Special Rule - chariot may march.
Crew: 2 Horrors.
Chariot channels PD/DD once per magic phase, when mounted by Horrors.
Crew Options (Only available to Horrors, not Flamer-chariot upgrade!)
1. Iridescant Corona, +25pts = Same as the Gift.
2. Aura of Tzeentch +25pts = Same as the Gift.
Chariot Options
1. May take up to 2 additional Screamers for +15pts each. Also option for Character Mount Chariot Type.
2. May replace both Horror crew with 2 Flamers for +50pts.
Note: When taken as a Character Mount the burning chariot has Flaming Attacks, Featherweight Craft Special Rule - and the Herald of Tzeentch replace both Crew.

Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh
* As per White Dwarf of August 2012.
Cost dropped to 105pts.
Optional Upgrades:
1. Rending Claws +10pts = 'as per Gift'
2. Aura of Slaanesh +25pts = 'as per Gift'

Flamers 35pts/model
[Replace 'Flames of Tzeentch' with 'Warpflame']
Warpflame: Rng: 12", Str: 4, Special: Flaming Attacks, Multiple Shots (D6), Quick to Fire
Note: Flamers do not suffer the To Hit penalty for multiple shots when firing their Warpflame.
Options:
1. Immolators, +5 points/model = Ignores all penalties ToHit when performing Stand & Shoot.
2. Changebringers, +20 points/model, gets Disc of Tzeentch and are Cav.

Hellflayer of Slaanesh
* As per White Dwarf of August 2012.
Base-cost increased to 140pts.
Soulscent: *Changed: Effecting not merely the Allures but the entire Crew of the model.*
Whirling Blades: When the Hellflayer is engaged in combat, its spiked axis continues to spin, slicing into the enemy ranks and lopping off limbs and heads. Enemies fighting the Hellflayer and its crew therefore have to be careful to avoid this spinning axis, lest they become maimed by an ill-timed attack. To represent this, any enemy model that rolls a 1 when rolling to hit the Hellflayer takes a Strength 4 hit.
Optional Upgrades:
1. Rending Claws +10pts = 'as per Gift'
2. Soul Hunger +25pts = 'as per Gift' (Crew only)

Beasts of nurgle 90pts/model
Cloud of Flies: -1 ToHit penalty in Close-Combat).
Attention Seeker(s): May issue/accept Challanges as if a unit-champion.
Options:
1. Playful +10 per model: Unit gains Stupid and Stubborn Special Rules
2. Rotten to the core +10pts per model: Unit gains +3 regeneration

~~~~~~~~RARE

Behemoth of Khorne - 230 points
(150x100mm base)
The Behemoth is a Juggernaut that has been swelled by Khorne’s rage and anger to several times its normal size..
Behemoth: M7 WS5 BS0 S6 T6 W5 I2 A4 Ld7
Skullshrine: M6 WS4 BS0 S6 T6 W5 I1 A3 Ld7
TROOP TYPE: Monster
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Magic Resistance (1), 4+ Armour save, Large Target, Terror, Onslaught (Behemoth only).
Onslaught: D3+1 Impact hits with Killing Blow on any turn the model charges.
Upgrades:
Fury of Khorne: Behemoth gains Devastating Charge special rule. – 15pts
Bloodlust of Khorne: Behemoth gains Frenzy special rule. – 15pts
If taken as a Lone Monster, may be upgraded to carry the Skullshrine of Khorne. The Skullshrine is very cumbersome requiring the Behemoth to be bound in chains; as a consequence the profile of the Behemoth changes to the Skullshrine profile above and the model loses the Onslaught special rule.
Skullshrine of Khorne (+60pts)
A Behemoth carrying the Skullshrine gains the following benefits.
Collar of Khorne: Magic Resistance is increased to (3).
Daemon chains: All Wizards in base contact with the Behemoth at the start of the magic phase take a wound on a D6 roll of 5+ with no armour saves allowed.
Well of Khorne’s Rage: May store any number of unused power dice at the end of your magic phase. At the start of your opponent’s next magic phase roll a D6 and add the number of power dice currently stored in the well. If the total is 7 or less, immediately add all the dice to your dispel pool as additional dispel dice (although your dispel pool may not exceed 12 dice as normal). If the total is 8 or more, all dice stored in the well are lost as Khorne’s rage is directed elsewhere at present.
Great Icon of Khorne: All Khorne characters within 12” of the Great Icon may channel dispel dice as if they were Wizards. All Wizards within 12” (friend or foe!) must re-roll successfull channels of Power Dice.
* Note that Behemoth's can be taken as Lone Monsters from the Rare Section, or as Monster Mounts.

The Eye of Tzeentch 2.0 250pts
(50x100mm base, 'short end to the sides')
Remote eyes for the ‘Wizard of Wizards himself..
M4, WS3, BS5, S5, T5, W5, I3, A(D6+1) Ld7
TROOP TYPE: Monster.
MAGIC: The Eye of Tzeentch is a Level 1 Wizard. It always knows the spell Glean Magic from the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch, and may not exchange it for any other.
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Flaming Attacks, Hover, Conduit of Magic, Skin of Star Iron, Whirling Blades, Bolt of Tzeentch, Terror.
Conduit of Magic: The Eye can be used as a conduit for casting spells by any of your Wizards within 12". Measure range and line of sight from the Eye as if it were the caster. If the Wizard casts the spell with Irresistable Force, they suffer the miscast effect as normal and the Eye takes an automatic wound with no saves of any kind allowed, and may not be used as a conduit for the rest of the Magic phase.
Skin of Star Iron: The Eye has an armour save of 3+.
Whirling Blades: When the Eye engages the enemy in combat, its star-armour angles towards the enemy and starts spinning, slicing into the enemy ranks and lopping off limbs and heads. Enemies fighting the Eye therefore have to be careful to avoid the spinning blades, lest they become maimed by an ill-timed attack. To represent this, any enemy model that rolls a 1 when rolling to hit the Eye takes a Strength 5 hit.
Bolt of Tzeentch: This is a Strength 8 Multiple Wounds (D3) ranged attack with a range of 24". If the Eye also has the Flames of Tzeentch it must choose each phase which of its two ranged weapons to use.
DAEMONIC GIFT OPTIONS: Aura of Tzeentch, Flames of Tzeentch.
Aura of Tzeentch: *as per Gift* (+25pts)
Flames of Tzeentch. *as per Gift (+25pts)

Exalted Seeker Chariot of Slaanesh
* As per White Dwarf of August 2012.
Cost reduced to 200pts. (1 Daemonette removed from profile!)
Optional Upgrades:
1. Rending Claws +10pts = 'as per Gift'
2. Aura of Slaanesh +25pts = 'as per Gift'
3. Luring Fumes +30pts = 'as per Gift'

SoulGrinder
* As per White Dwarf of August 2012.
- 'Warp Gaze' Upgrade cost reduced to 40pts.
Notation: Clarification that all optional shooting attacks are measured from the 'mouth' of the model, while the 'Harvest Cannon' is measured from the right arm of the model (where the cannon is modelled).
In addition to other options, may take one of the following:
Mark of Khorne, *cost?* = Hatred (Daemons of Slaanesh), Magic Resistance (1), *something*
Mark of Nurgle, *cost?* = Hatred (Daemons of Tzeentch), Poisoned Attacks, *something*
Mark of Slaanesh, *cost?* = Hatred (Daemons of Khorne), Armour Piercing, *something*.
Mark of Tzeentch, *cost?* = Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle), Flaming Attacks, *something*

Phantasm of Slaanesh 180pts
(50x100mm base)
M8, WS5, BS0, S5, T5, W4, I5, A5, Ld7
Unit type: Monster
Special rules: Armour piercing, Swiftstride, Terror, Sopoforic Musk, Divine Perfumes, Extatic Caress.
Divine Perfumes Breathe Weapon S2, -3 save mod, any unit that takes a wound from the attack is at -D3 WS & BS and I until the end of the next player turn. Roll once for all stats.
Extatic Caress = In each round of combat the Phantasm may forego its normal attacks (it may still Thunder Stomp and use its Divine Perfumes) and instead make a single attack against one enemy model in base contact. If this attack hits the Phantasm coils itself around the enemy model. Both the Phantasm and its victim roll a D6 and add their Strength. If the enemy model scores highest it breaks free immediately and may attack as normal that combat phase (providing it hasn't done so already). If the scores are equal or the Phantasm scores highest the enemy model takes a number of hits equal to the difference in scores (if any), wounding automatically with no armour saves allowed. In addition the enemy model may not attack this round of combat if it hasn't done so already. The victim is assumed to break free at the end of the phase before calculating Combat Resolution.
Options:
1. Sidewinder - +10pts Gains strider rule
2. Thrasher - +15pts May re-roll # of Stomps.

Plague Drones of Nurgle 55pts

Skullcannon of Khorne 190pts/model
Same as in the 8th Edition Army Book, save for the 'Daemon of Khorne' Special Rule having different properties (i.e. Bloodletters/Juggernauts are still S5 etcetera)

~~~~~~~~HEROES

HoK - 110pts
- Ballistic Skill increased to 3.
May ride Juggernaut (+50pts), Blood Chariot (+120pts), Behemoth (+240pts) and Skullthrone (+150pts).
New Available Gifts: Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Ruinous Blade, Magic Hater, Harbringer of Skulls, Fury of Khorne, Aura of Khorne, Bloodlust of Khorne, Death Strike, Lash of Khorne, Axe of Khorne.

HoT - 120pts
May ride Disc of Tzeentch for +20pts or Burning Chariot for +80pts
New Available Gifts: Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Soul Hunger, Loremaster, Arcane Knowledge, Warp Strength, Attuned to Oblivion, Elemental Form, Aura of Tzeentch, Obliteration.

HoS 100 points/model
Toughness increased to 4.
Level 1 Wizard +50pts
Level 2 Wizard +85pts
(In addition to Seeker Steed..) May be mounted on a Seeker Chariot, for +95pts and Exalted Seeker Chariot for +180pts.
May be mounted on Serpent of Slaanesh, for +50pts
New Available Gifts: Chaos Forging, Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Luring Fumes, Aura of Slaanesh, Masochistic Vigour, Rending Claws, Soul Hunger.

HoN 115pts
Initiative increased to 3.
Level 1 Wizard +50pts
Level 2 Wizard +85pts
In addition to Palanquin (+50), may be mounted on a Plague Toad (+24) and Plague Drone (+50).
New Available Gifts: Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Ruinous Blade, Blade of Entropy, Aura of Nurgle, Cloud of Flies, Stream of Corruption, Trappings of Nurgle.

~~~~~~~~~~LORDS

Daemon Prince 265pts
Amendments to 7th Ed Profile:
Wounds increased to 5.
Movement remains at 8
Leadership increased to 9.
Causes Terror!
Ballistic Skill increased to 4!
Gift Allowance: 100 points.
Options:
+25pts = Winged Majesty Fly
+30pts = Mark of Khorne: Hatred & MR1 + Khorne Gifts
+25pts = Mark of Tzeentch: 4+ Ward & Flaming Attacks + Tzeentch Gifts
+35pts = Mark of Slaanesh: ASF & AP-attacks + Slaanesh Gifts
+30pts = Mark of Nurgle: 4+ Regen & Poison Attacks + Nurgle Gifts
Additional 'unmarked' Gifts: - Chaos Forging, Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Ruinous Blade. Note that the Gift 'Winged Horror' is no longer available!
In addition a DP with a Mark of one of the Chaos Gods can choose to spend any amount of his allowance on Gifts available to Daemons of that God. They may not take any individual gifts worth more than 50pts however, as these are reserved for the God's most favoured servants.
- If not taking Mark of Khorne:
lvl1 - 50pts; lvl2 - 85pts; lvl3 - 120pts; lvl4 - 155pts.
(Unchanged access to BrB Lores + Daemon Lores if Marked)
+50pts Prince of Nurgle may be mounted on Palanquin of Nurgle and may in this case not make use of the 'Winged Majesty' Upgrade.

THE GREATER DAEMONS

Bloodthirster
- - - - Increase to 6 Wounds.
- - - - Increase Ballistic Skill to 4.
- - - - Decrease to Initiative 8.
- - - - Increase Cost to 470 points
- - - - New Available Gifts: Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Ruinous Blade, Magic Hater, Harbringer of Skulls, Fury of Khorne, Bloodlust of Khorne, Death Strike, Lash of Khorne, Aura of Khorne, Soul Hunger.
Lord of Change
- - - - 6 wounds.
- - - - Ballistic Skill 6.
- - - - Initiative 9.
- - - - Cost 440 points.
- - - - Universal Loremaster (Special Rule) - The Lord of Change is concidered to have the 'Loremaster Gift', meaning it always knows all Spells the Lore of Tzeentch or (if buying the Gift Master of Sorcery) knows all spells from whatever Lore it may choose to use.
- - - - New Available Gifts: Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Soul Hunger, Warp Strength, Attuned to Oblivion, Elemental Form, Aura of Tzeentch, Scrutinous Gaze, Spell Breaker.
GreatUncleanOne
- - - - WeaponSkill 6
- - - - Movement 5
- - - - Palanquin of Nurgle +50pts
- - - - Decrease base-cost to 435 points.
- - - - New Available Gifts: Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Ruinous Blade, Blade of Entropy, Aura of Nurgle, Cloud of Flies, Stream of Corruption.
Keeper of Secrets
- - - - 6 wounds.
- - - - Movement decreased to 9.
- - - - No 'innate' ASF, but access to Unnatural Swiftness Gift.
- - - - Remains at base-cost 450 points.
- - - - New Available Gifts: Chaos Forging, Spectral Distortion, Radiance of Dark Glory, Luring Fumes, Aura of Slaanesh, Masochistic Vigour, Rending Claws, Unnatural Swiftness.

2 NEW SPECIAL CHARACTERS:

Be’Lakor, The Dark Master – 615pts
Be’Lakor believed he could become as great as the Chaos Gods themselves. Cursed by Tzeentch to a shadow-existence for his hubris.. In the wakes of Archaon's advance, Be'lakor drove his legions southwards towards the lands of men.
Be’Lakor: M6, WS9, BS0, S5, T5, W5, I8, A5, Ld10
MAGIC
Be’Lakor is a level 4 Wizard. He always knows 5 spells from the Lore of Shadow or Lore of Death, and can choose to take some of his spells from both lores if he wishes. Decide how many he wants from each magic lore before rolling the dice to see which spells he gets.
Special Rules: Daemonic, Fly, Terror, Eternal Terror, Insurmountable Rage, Night Wards, Shadow-shroud.
Eternal Terror: All enemies suffer a -1Ld penalty when taking Fear and Terror tests because of Be’Lakor. In addition, all enemies suffer a -1 Ld penalty when attempting to rally.
Insurmountable Rage: Roll D6 for each Turn: 1-3 = Frenzy 4-6 = Immortal Fury.
Night Wards: Enemy wizards wishing to target a spell at Be’Lakor must first pass an unmodified leadership test or suffer a Loss of Concentration (although no power dice or magic items are used up in the process).
Shadow-shroud: All shooting at Be’Lakor and friendly units within 6” of him is at -1 to hit.

N’Kari, Greater Daemon of Slaanesh – 625pts
One of Slaanesh’s most favoured servants, N’Kari has entered the mortal realms time and again to reap souls for his lord and master. N’Kari is so horrifyingly beautiful (or beautifully horrifying) that few mortals who witness him and live retain their sanity, and those unlucky enough to do so have their dreams haunted by his disturbing visage and the dread passions it invokes in them. N’Kari has a particular delight in ensnaring the souls of the proud and aloof High Elves, as they have so far to fall when letting go of their usual restraint and giving in to the delights of pure sensation. Of all the High Elves, the one whose soul N’Kari desires the most is their champion, Tyrion. The Prince defeated him in single combat many years ago, and N’Kari knows that if he should claim his prize all of Ulthuan would become demoralised and fall soon after.
N’Kari: M9, WS9, BS0, S6, T6, W6, I10, A7, Ld9
MAGIC
N’Kari is a level 1 Wizard. He always knows spells from the Daemon Lore of Slaanesh.
Daemonic Gifts: Allure of Slaanesh, Enrapturing Gaze, Luring Fumes, Soul Hunger.
Special Rules: Daemonic, Large Target, Terror, Always Strikes First, Armour Piercing, Revelation of Darkest Desires, Hatred (Elves Only!).
Revelation of Darkest Desires: At the start of their turn, all enemy units (except swarms) with line of sight to N’Kari must take a Leadership test. If failed the unit takes D6 hits at their own basic Strength value, distributed as missile hits. If the unit consists of multiple troops types, use the Strength value of the crew/riders/handlers etc. If a unit suffers 25% casualties because of this they must take a panic test.
MAGIC WEAPON: The Unholy Spear
With a haft made from the leg bones of a Bloodthirster defeated in personal combat by N'Kari, this weapon has been the bane of many an enemy champion. Any attack with this weapon that rolls a 6 to wound gains the Multiple Wounds (2) special rule.

REVISION OF 'OLD' SPECIAL CHARACTERS

General note on: Special Characters for 8th Ed:
Unless otherwise noted Special Characters are subject to same amendments as 'normal' Heralds and Lords. As always, only changes to current profiles are noted below:

The Masque of Slaanesh - 100pts
Dances:
Dance of Dreaming - All enemy units within 6" are at -1 LD
Chason of Caging - All enemy units within 6" are at -1 Movement
Pageant of Pain - All enemy units within range take D3 hits, each causing a wound with no armour saves allowed on a roll of 4+ (roll once per unit).
Carousal of Confusion - All enemy units within 6" are at -1 Initiative.

SKARBRAND 625pts
- 6 wounds
- Rage Embodied = Frenzy to self and everyone (friend or foe) within 24", Skarbrand can never lose his Frenzy.
- Collar of Khorne Gift.
- Strength 7, Initiative 10.
- Heavy Armour.
- Immortal Fury (instead of Hatred)

THE CHANGELING - 70pts (Counts as a Hero/Herald)
Aura of Tzeentch (as per Gift)
Special Rules:
Scion of Tzeentch - The Changeling may only join Tzeentch units and Furies.
'Arch Imposter' - Changeling is secretly placed in any friendly unit of Tzeentch Daemons at the start of the game, and can be revealed at the start of any close-combat sub-phase. If the unit is in combat the Changeling must be placed in base contact with enemy, displacing a model per normal rules. Changeling has ASF in the close-combat phase in which Changeling appears.
'Grand Imitator' - The Changeling may copy WS, S, T, I & A from any/all models in b2b. (Note that it copies - not swaps! - these Stats, but is able to do so from friend or foe as long as they are in b2b!)
'Chief Prankster' - No other models in the army may use The Changeling's leadership value and he may not be the army general.

EPIDEMIUS
- Scion of Nurgle Special Rule = Epidemius may only join Nurgle units.
- Revised 'Tally of Pestilence':
Wounds - Effect
0 - 6: No effect.
7 - 13: All poisoned attacks made by Nurgle Daemons or models with the Mark of Nurgle will now automatically wound on a 5+ rather than a 6.
14 - 20: Spells from the Daemon Lore of Nurgle receive a +1 bonus to cast.
21 - 27: Epidemius' Regeneration is increased by +1.
28 - 34: All Nurgle Daemon characters gain the Nurgle's Rot gift if they didn't have it already.
35+ : All attacks by Nurgle Daemons get +1 to wound, up to a maximum of 2+.

SKULLTAKER 200pts
- Scion of Khorne Special Rule= May only join Khorne units.
- Collector of Trophies Special Rule= For each character or champion Skulltaker kills with his Heroic killing blow in a challenge he gains an additional +1 combat resolution for the rest of the game.
- Heroic Killing Blow Special Rule = Skulltaker has HKB (6+) and HKB (5+) in Challanges.
- Skulls for the Skull Throne! Special Rule = Skulltaker must always issue a challenge, or accept one if he is able to do so.
- May be mounted on Kuhl'tyran ('Juggernauth' +50pts) or Bloodchariot (+120pts).

KARANAK 65pts
- "At the start of the Game, Karanak nominates a target Character (re-rolls toHit/toWound against chosen target!).
- Special Rule May always "Make Way" in combat as long as it gets him into contact with his nominated target Character.
- 'Bloodhowl' Special Rule = Karanak counts as being the unit's musician as well as its champion.

BLUE SCRIBES
- Eternal Travellers Special Rule = The Blue Scribes may never join units.
- Revised Scrolls of Sourcery Special Rule = When Xirat'p wants to cast the spell he rolls up it is treated as a bound spell with a power level equal to half the casting value, rounding up.

KU'GATH 625pts
WS 6, M4
Magic Level 2.
Mounted on Palanquin of Nurgle (see additions to Palanquin!);
*Ku'gath's nurgling-thrower remains the same.*

KAIROS
- All stats remain 'as now' (i.e. disregard changes on LoC entry!)

END OF UNIT ENTRIES
BELOW: Review Gifts, Icons, Miscallenous and Magic Lores!

~~~~~~~~DAEMONIC GIFTS:
All 'current' Gifts remain unchanged except for changes *beneath* - all though some Gifts are mentioned here just to clarify that they are not changed.
All Characters have identical access to Gifts as in the 7th Ed DoC Book, see their profiles for specific additions/restrictions.

UNDIVIDED/SHARED GIFTS
- - - - Chaos Forging 20pts - Wounded Target re-rolls all successfull Wardsaves.
- - - - Spectral Distortion 50pts = -1 to shoot at Daemon and its unit. Warmachines that wish to fire at the Daemon or its unit must roll a 4+ (D6) or may not fire at all this turn.
- - - - Radiance of Dark Glory 20pts = Daemon and unit he is with lose 1 less wound to instability.
- - - - Daemonic Robes 20pts = Unchanged Function
- - - - Etherblade 50pts = No Armour Save.
- - - - Many Armed Monstrosity 40pts - +2 Attacks.
- - - - Unnatural Swiftness 25pts = ASF
- - - - Winged Horror +25pts = Fly Ability. *Removed*
- - - - Ruinous Blade 40pts = D3 Wound Weapon

KHORNE GIFTS
- - - - Obsidian Armour 50pts = *Same as now*
- - - - Axe Of Khorne 25pts = *Same as now*
- - - - Dark Insanity 55pts = Daemon has the Random Attacks (2D6+2) Special Rule.
- - - - AwesomeStrength 80pts = Model has S10 & uniquely this also effects thunderstomps.
- - - - Magic Hater 20pts = Any spells (friend or foe) cast by wizards within 6" of this model or targeted at units within 6" of this model will suffer a miscast on any casting roll that includes a double 1.
- - - - Harbinger of Skulls = HKB, 50pts.
- - - - Fury of Khorne 15pts = Daemon has Devastating Charge Special Rule.
- - - - Bloodlust of Khorne 15pts = Daemon is Frenzy.
- - - - Death Strike 25pts = Shooting attack (Range 12") with 'Sniper' Special Rule causing a hit resolved with Daemon's Strength value.
- - - - Lash of Khorne 45pts - The Daemon can choose which enemy character accepts a challenge rather than the enemy, providing the character was elligible to accept the challenge in the first place. This Character may not refuse this challenge.
- - - - Collar of Khorne 15pts = MR3
- - - - Aura of Khorne 5pts = Whenever the Daemon is effected by a spell that uses a template (vortexes etcetera) roll a D6: On the roll of a 6 the spell is instantly cancelled and removed from play, but note that it still deals normal effect prior to reaching the Daemon with this Gift.

SLAANESH GIFTS
- - - - Temptator - 25pts = *same as now*
- - - - Allure of Slaanesh - 45pts = Any enemy model that wishes to attack the Daemon with this Gift must immediately pass an Initiative Test lest it not be allowed to attack in this combat phase at all.
- - - - Enrapturing Gaze - 25pts = Any enemy unit in base contact with a Daemon carrying this Gift may not use Inspiring Presence, note that the General's Leadership is still used if the General is in the unit however.
- - - - Siren Song - 25pts = One use only. Whenever a Daemon with this Gift has Line of Sight to an enemy unit who declares a charge against another friendly unit, while also being able to declare a charge against the Daemon with the Siren Song Gift, the Siren Song may be activated before the charge distance roll has been made. The enemy unit in question must attempt to charge the Daemon with the Siren Song Gift as if this had been its initial declaration.
- - - - Luring Fumes 30pts = Enemy models in b2b halve their WS and I (rounding up).
- - - - Tormentblade 5pts = *Remove 'Hand weapon' from description of mechanic.*
- - - - Many Armed Monstrosity 40pts - +2 Attacks.
- - - - Aura of Slaanesh 25pts = Unit in in b2b have -1Ld. This penalty stacks with other reductions to Leadership, but not other Aura's of Slaanesh.
- - - - Masochistic Vigour 20pts = For every wound the Daemon suffers it's Strength increase by 1, this effect is lost if the Daemon is subsequently healed.
- - - - SpiritSwallower 75pts = Daemon regains one wound for every wound caused in close-combat. This includes wounds caused simultaneously as Daemon's own attacks - i.e. same initiative, both have ASF/ASL etcetera.
- - - - Rending Claws 10pts = Ignore Armour Save when rolling 6 ToWound.

NURGLE GIFTS
- - - - Blade of Entropy 50pts - For every unsaved wound the Daemon causes using its close-combat attacks the target must roll a D6. On a 4+ the target suffers all remaining wounds with no saves of any kind allowed.
- - - - Staff of Nurgle 35pts - Bound Spell Casting Level 4, casts Rancid Visitation.
- - - - Trappings of Nurgle 30pts - *same as now*
- - - - Nurgle's Rot 25pts - At the start of each round of close-combat any enemy model in base Contact with this Daemon takes a Strength 1 hit, allowing no armour saves. Any wounds count toward combat resolution.
- - - - Aura of Nurgle 20pts - +1 to Regen.
- - - - Cloud of Flies 25pts - Enemies in b2b are at -1 ToHit the Daemon in close-combat.
- - - - Stream of Corruption 5pts - Daemon may forego normal attacks and deal D3 automatic hit at 'own Strength -1' (Herald = S4, GuO = S5) in close-combat.

TZEENTCH GIFTS
- - - - Loremaster 30pts = The Daemon knows All spells from whichever Magic Lore it is using.
- - - - Master of Sorcery 20pts = Instead of using the Lore of Tzeentch the Daemon may choose one of the BrB Lores. 'Normal' spell-selection.
- - - - Arcane Knowledge 15pts = Knows +1 Spell from whichever Lore it is using.
- - - - Staff of Change 50pts = The Daemon may roll one of his close combat attacks seperately. If this hits, the target of the attack must pass a Toughness test or be removed from play with no saves of any kind allowed. If the test is passed, roll to wound and make saves from the attack as normal.".
- - - - Twin Heads 70pts - Daemon has +2 ToCast
- - - - Warp Strength 20pts = Every time a wizard within 12" of the Daemon casts a spell the Daemon gets +1S for the rest of the turn.
- - - - Power Vortex = *same as now*
- - - - Attuned to Oblivion 15 pts = Daemon channels are at +1 (i.e. 5+ instead of 6+ for nominal model) and note that this does not effect joined units.
- - - - Elemental Form 5 pts = Daemon has 2+ Ward Save against Flaming Attacks.
- - - - Aura of Tzeentch 25 pts = +1 to Daemonic Wardsave.
- - - - Iridescant Corona - 25pts = Every enemy model in b2b takes a S3 Flaming Hit every round of combat before any blows are struck.
- - - - Scrutinous Gaze - 5pts = At the start of each friendly magic phase the Daemon may look at any enemy unit within line of sight. The opponent must reveal everything that is not apparent about the unit (magic items and their bearers, hidden Assasins and Fanatics, etc). *DPoT & LoC only!*
- - - - Power of the Warp 25 pts = Once per friendly magic phase the Daemon may attempt to re-cast any spell that the Daemon has previously cast successfully in its unboosted version in that same magic phase, in doing so the Daemon uses Power Dice from the Pool as normal.

DAEMONIC ICONS:
General:
Daemonic Icons are 'Magic Standards' and therefore only 1 of each Icon can be present in the same Army, unlike Daemonic Gifts that may be duplicated on different Characters. Any spells or items that effect 'Magic Standards' therefore also effects Daemonic Icons, unless specifically noted otherwise.
Icon Allowance for Daemonic Units:
Core Units = Any Icon of Corresponding Mark costing up to 35pts
Special/Rare = Any Icon of Corrsponding Mark costing up to 50pts
The Battle Standard Bearer = May pick any of the Undivided Battle Standards. May also pick any of the 'lesser' Icons in their alignment whenever the General of the Army is also aligned. Note that a Daemonic Herald may carry a Battle Standard and also choose Daemonic Gifts as normal.

Khorne Icons
1) Skull totem: Unit automatically passes all “Enemy Sighted” tests. - 15pts
2) Icon of Endless War: Extra D6" to first charge of the game. - 25pts
3) Banner of the Blood God's Blessing: +1 Magic Resistance for the unit (to a maximum of 3). - 20pts
4) Icon of Crimson Carnage: The unit gains the Hatred Special rule. If a Herald of Khorne is in the unit they get to re-roll their missed to hit rolls in every round of combat, not just the first. - 50 points

Slaanesh Icons
1) Banner of Ecstasy: Stubborn for unit’s first break test. - 25pts
2) Siren Standard: Enemy may only hold as charge reaction. - 25pts
3) Icon of Exhilarating Vapours: The unit gains the benefits of the Soporific Musk gift - 25pts
4) Icon of Enchanting Beauty: Enemy unit wishing to shoot at unit carrying this standard must pass a Leadership test or may not fire this turn - 35pts

Nurgle Icons
1) Icon of Eternal Virulence: Poisoned wounds count double resolution - 20pts
2) Standard of Seeping Decay: The unit may re-roll failed ToWound rolls when making close combat attacks - 35pts
3) Pestilent Shroud Standard: The unit counts as being in soft cover (-1 ToHit modifyer) to enemy shooting. - 30pts
4) Icon of Stench: All enemy models in base contact with the unit gain the Always Strikes Last special rule (exactly as the effect of the 'Noxious Vapours' Gift) 50pts

Tzeentch Icons
1) Icon of Sorcery: Pink Horrors in the unit get +1 To Cast. - 25 points.
2) Banner of Change: Once per Friendly magic phase, D6 SD6 Hits against one enemy unit in base contact with banner bearer – 25 points
3) Vortex Standard: Pink Horrors in the unit get +1 to their channelling attempts. - 25 points.
4) Icon of the Essence: Pink Horrors ignore their first Miscast (exactly like Dark Magister Gift) - 20 points.

The Undivided Battle Standards
1. Great Standard of Sundering: At the start of the game, choose one Lore of magic. All casting attempts made by any wizards using this lore are at -2. In addition, any wizard using the lore of light will suffer a miscast on a casting roll that includes a double 1 or 2. - 60pts Or *same function as currently* but 70pts cost!*
2. Standard of Chaos Glory - 100pts *same function*
3. Banner of Unholy Victory 100pts = +D6 to CR
4. Great Icon of Despair 65pts = All Enemies within 12" have -1 Ld Penalty.
Note that the Banner of Hellfire has been removed, while its 'name' has been recycled as Tzeentch Marked BSB!

The Marked Battle Standards
*The requirement for a Battle Standard Bearer to pick any of these Icons is that his own Mark corresponds to the Icon in question, as well as the Mark of the General of the Army. When the Battle Standard Bearer and the General is aligned to the same Mark, the Battle Standard Bearer may also choose any of the 'Lesser' Icons of its alignment.
(1) Khorne:
The Banner of Martial Pride: Whenever the unit with this banner suffers an unsaved wound from a ranged attack in the shooting phase, the firing unit immediately takes a S3 hit (resolved as shooting). In addition, if a spell cast by a wizard (friend or foe) in any way affects the unit with this banner (including randomly moving templates in subsequent turns, spells that have no target, and friendly augments or enemy hexes which target all units within a range) then the casting wizard suffers a S6 hit. – 75pts
(2) Slaanesh
Banner of Intoxication: Enemy units in base contact with the unit carrying this banner are never steadfast. – 70pts
(3) Nurgle
Standard of Endless Rot: +1 Regeneration for the unit. – 80pts
(4) Tzeentch
Banner of Hellfire: At the start of each combat phase, all enemy models in base contact with the banner bearer’s unit takes a S3 flaming hit. Any wounds caused in this process are added to combat resolution. – 70 points

MISCALLENOUS ADDITIONS:

1 - Plaguetoad added as mount for Herald of Nurgle.

2 - 'Serpent of Slaanesh' added 'instead' of Fiend-mount, profile:
M10,WS4,BS0,S4,T4,W3,I5,A2,Ld7
50 pts/model
Unit Type: Monstrous Beast
Special rules: Armour piercing, Poisoned attacks.
-Mount option for Herald of Slaanesh.

3 - 'Palanquin of Nurgle' (+50pts/model)
*Available as mount for Herald of Nurgle, Prince of Nurgle and Great Unclean One.
*Unchanged stats, two added Special Rules:
- - - - - Borne aloft - A character riding a Palanquin remains the same unit type and gains a +1 bonus to his armour save.
- - - - - Pestilent Landside - If ridden by a Monster, the rider uses his own Strength value when making Thunderstomp attacks.

~~~~~~~~THE MAGIC LORES

THE DAEMON LORE OF TZEENTCH

Tzeentch Attribute: The Masters of Magic: Whenever a spell from the Lore of Tzeentch is successfully cast, after working out the spell resolution, re-roll the power-dice used to cast spell: Any 6 rolled adds one Power Dice to the Power Pool.

[ SIGNATURE ] - Flickering Fire:
5+ ToCast. Magic Missile Range 18". D6+1 Hits at D6+1 Strength.
Boosted version 10+ = Range 36" D6+2 hits at D6+2 Strength.

1 -Boon of Tzeentch:
Augment, Targets casting wizard.
4+ ToCast, Adds D3+1 dice to casting Wizard's Pool.
Boosted 9+, Adds D3+1 dice to Army Pool.

2 - Glean Magic
Hex
9+ ToCast - Hex Range 24". Cast on enemy wizard. If the spell is successful/not dispelled; Choose any one of his spells, you may immediately cast* the unboosted version of this spell automatically with no possibility for opponent to dispel.
Boosted 16+ To Cast Range 48" - In addition to above, spell may be cast on basic or boosted version.
*Note that the Lore Attribute of the gleaned spell is triggered when it is cast, as if the Daemon stealing the spell was the caster - then, when the gleaned spell and its attribute has been resolved, the attribute of the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch is triggered as well.

3 - Gift Of Chaos
- Augment Range 18"
10+ ToCast, target unit gains +1 Wardsave, in addition roll D6 on this Chart:
'1'= +1WS / '2'= +1S / '3'=+1T / '4'= +2I / '5'= +1A / '6'= Casting Player Choose Any Alt. 1-5.
The wizard may choose to have this spell effect all friendly units within 12", if doing so the casting value increases to 20+. Note that a unit can never get a Wardsave better than 2+, and never increase any given stat beyond 10.[/i]

4 - Bolt of Change
13+ ToCast Nominal (*same as in Current Book*)
16+ ToCast Boosted (Range 36")
19+ ToCast Boosted (Range 48")

5 - Maelstrom of Change
Vortex.
13+ To Cast, 23+ To Cast Boosted Version."SD3+1 with 4D6" range, with the boosted version using the large template. Roll once per Magic Phase to determine the Strength of any hits inflicted. In subsequent turns this Vortex scatters 2D6, if a Hit! is rolled the player who cast it decides the direction and if a double is rolled the Vortex is removed from play. No Armour Saves may be taken against damage caused by the Mealstrom of Change.

6 -Tzeentch Firestorm.
18+ ToCast, Direct Damage Range 18", Every model in target unit takes SD6 Flaming Hit. For every 3 wounds caused a Horror is created; forming a new unit within 3" of the Target unit. Boosted Version 21+ ToCast: Range 36". Horrors generated by a Firestorm are worth 50 Victory Points.

THE DAEMON LORE OF SLAANESH

Slaanesh Attribute: Whispers of Seduction Of all followers, Slaanesh values those in positions of influence most of all, as nothing gives him greater pleasure than to see even the highest and mightiest brought low and debased before him. Whenever a spell from the Daemon Lore of Slaanesh targets an enemy character, or an enemy unit containing characters, reduce the casting value of the spell by 1 (to a minimum of 1) for each character targeted. Hidden characters, such as Dark Elf and Skaven assasins, do not count towards this unless they are revealed or otherwise 'known' to the Daemon General by some other means.

[SIGNATURE] - Acquiescence
Hex
5+ ToCast Range 18" = Target unit is Stupid for the remainder of the game.
8+ ToCast Boosted, Range 36" = Target unit is Stupid for the remainder of the game.

1. - Cursed Caress
Augment, Targets Casting Wizard
7+ ToCast = The target model immediately makes one close combat attack using any Special Rules associated with its profile, on chosen enemy model in base contact. If this attack hits, it causes D3 wounds allowing no armour saves. The wizard may boost this spell so that the any successfull Hit instead causes D6 wounds, if doing so the casting value is 12+.

2 - Supreme Temptations
Hex/Augment
8+ ToCast = Range 24", Until the start of the Caster's next Magic Phase the Target unit has the 'Stubborn' Special Rule but may not make use of the Hold Your Ground! or Inspiring Presence Special Rules. The wizard may choose to increase the range of this spell to 48", if doing so the casting value is increased to 11+.

3 - Slicing Shards of Slaanesh
Magic Missile
9+ ToCast = Range 24", D6 S5 Hits, target must then pass a Ld test or take another D6 S5 Hits. This continues until unit either passes an Ld test or all models are slain.
15+ ToCast Boosted = Range 48", 2d6 S5 Hits, target must then pass a Ld test or take another 1D6 S5 Hits. This continues until unit either passes an Ld test or all models are slain.

4 - Succour of Chaos
Augment, May Target Wizard or friendly Daemon Unit, Until Caster's Next Magic Phase
10+ ToCast, Range 18" = Target unit ignores armour saves in combat until the start of the caster's next magic phase. If the enemy they are fighting would get no armour save anyway, the target unit may re-roll failed to wound rolls instead.
20+ ToCast Boosted, All Daemons within 12"

5 - Phantasmagoria
Hex, Until Caster's Next Magic Phase
10+ ToCast = Target unit within 24" of Caster rolls 3d6 for every ld-test discarding the lowest result. If an affected unit has the ability to roll 3D6 for a Leadership test and discard the highest dice, the two effects cancel out and the test is taken on 2D6 as normal. This spell can be boosted to effect all enemy units within 24", in that case the casting value is 20+.

6 - Pavane of Slaanesh
Direct Damage, Single Enemy model (per Sniper Special Rule)
15+ ToCast = Range 12", Target model rolls 3D6, for every digit by which this roll exceeds the target's unmodified Leadership value it takes a wound on the roll of 2+. Wounds caused by the Pavane of Slaanesh allow no armour saves. If the target takes any wounds but survives the attack, it has its Leadership permanently reduced by 1 (to a minimum of 1) for the rest of the game. The wizard may boost the range of this spell to 24", if doing so the casting cost is 18+.

THE DAEMON LORE OF NURGLE

Nurgle Attribute: Creeping Rot"Whenever a Nurgle spell is successfully cast any enemy unit within 6" of the spell's target immediately takes D3 Hits with a Strength value equal to the caster's magic level, wounds caused in this way allow no Armour Saves."

[Signature] - Miasma of Pestilence
Augment, Targets Caster.
3+ ToCast = Any enemy unit in b2b gets WeaponSkill and Initiative reduced By 1, to a minimum of 1.
8+ ToCast Boosted = Any enemy unit in b2b gets same stats reduced by 1D3 to a minimum of 1.

1 - Pit Of Slime
Hex, Range 24"
7+ ToCast = Target must pass Strength test using the lowest value in the unit or cannot Move or Shoot until the caster's next magic phase
10+ ToCast Boosted = Range 48"

2 - Stream of Corruption
Augment, May be cast on Self or friendly Character within 12"
8+ ToCast = Breath weapon attack that targets the caster, resolved instantly. Models touched by template must pass T-test or take a wound with no armour saves allowed. If cast on a model in combat, this spell causes 2d6 T-tests on the enemy unit where failed tests causes wounds with no armour saves allowed. The caster may choose to instead target this spell on any friendly character within 12", if doing so the casting value is increased to 11+. If cast on a friendly non-Nurgle Character the model takes an S3 hit with no armour saves allowed directly after spell-resolution.

3 - Rancid Visitation
Magic Missile
10+ ToCast = Range 24", Target unit takes D6 S5 Hits. It must then pass a Toughness test or take another D6 S5 hits. This continues until unit either passes a Toughness test or all models are slain.
16+ ToCast Boosted = Range 48", Target unit takes 2D6 S5 Hits. It must then pass a Toughness test or take another 1D6 S5 hits. This continues until unit either passes a Toughness test or all models are slain.

4 - Shrivelling Pox
Direct Damage, Targets Enemy Model as perSniper rule within 18"
9+ ToCast = Target takes D6 T-tests, taking a wound for each failed test with no armour saves allowed.
16+ ToCast Boosted = Range increases to 36", model has to take 2D6 tests.

5 - Blessing of Nurgle
Hex 12+
Blessing of Nurgle is a Hex spell with a range of 18". If successfully cast the target must re-roll all successful to wound rolls it makes when shooting and in combat until the start of the caster's next magic phase. If the target unit has the ability to re-roll failed to wound rolls for any reason then these two effects cancel out and the unit rolls to wound as normal. The caster may choose to increase the range of this spell to 36". If he does so, the casting value is increased to 15+.

6 - Plaguewind
Direct Damage
18+ ToCast = Range 18", Every model in unit takes T-test or suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed, for every 3 wounds caused a Plaguebearer is created forming a new unit within 3" of Target.
25+ ToCast Boosted = Range 36", Every model in unit takes T-test or suffers a wound with no armour saves allowed, for every 3 wounds caused a Nurgling Base OR Plaguebearer (casters choice, but you may not create a mix of the two) is created forming new units within 3" of the Target.

For some points I say that you are very correct, but on some points you get to the usual enthusiasm where new ideas tend to get bit too good and make already good units plain overpowered. Your post is long so I try to analyze it and add my own thoughs in parts.


CONCLUSIONS

1 - I agree they should be more viable. If everything would be totally balanced, which is bit of an utopia, you could make viable lists with either mono or multigod lists. In my opinion daemons do not need more troop types, but more customization options instead. For example Bloodletters could have a choise of getting khornate armor, frenzy, killing blow weapons or something like that. I will tell more about this idea later, but it would atleast give very good ideas for converting some models and making armies look unique. Re-introducing units like Pleasureseekers etc could be a fine idea too to creat some more diversity.

2 - Idea of it is nice, but it would make greater daemons way too good. GuO with regeneration is quite a bit harder to kill than herald with 2 wounds, so 2 blocks of Plaguebearers would be quite insane with this. LoC in the middle of horrors would be quite terrifying also as it could buff horrors with magic too. So yeah, I like the idea but think that it is definately too powerful.

3 - Magic lores mainly need higher casting costs, as almost all spells are way too easy to cast at the moment. Lores need one more spell to get to same level than basic rulebook lores and lore attribute would make lores more appealing to Slaanesh and Nurgle heralds. Lore of Tzeentch is still an excellent lore and it only needs some minor tweaking like introducing one mass destruction spell. I would think Slaanesh lore needs most work, as Ld effects were harshly toned down in this edition thanks to bigger Ld bubbles and Bsb effects getting better.

4 - More icons would mean more customization, but daemons are good with what they already have. They do not need it to survive, but different kinds of options would ofcourse be welcome.


CORE

I talked earlier about the customization and in this section I tell those ideas in more detail. Idea of custom troops is same that with any troop weapon and equipment choises, you could get great weapons for +2pts for example and stuff like that. I also like idea of keeping every unit their own personal touch, so no multiple attacks for letters, daemonettes are fast, nurgle durable and so on.

Bloodletters are too cheap for their stats, 13pts without killing blow would be what I would say is fair. Options would be:
Hellblades +1pts/per model: Killing blow
Armor of Khorne +2pts/per model: heavy armor and MR2
Fury of Khorne +2pts/per model: Devastating charge special rule
Bloodletters like this would have option on having every single update and becoming sort of an super elite. Armor is not too harsh update, but with 2 5+ saves it would definately make them tougher. Devastating charge is expensive, as it could become very powerful with charge flag and heralds hatred.

Daemonettes are too expensive I agree, so ~11pts each would be more fair.
Soporific Musk +1pts/ per model: same effect as with fiends
Aura of Slaanesh +2pts/ per model: Opponent gets -1 to Ld when in base contact with daemonettes
Furious +1pts/ per model: Fight in extra ranks
This would keep daemonettes fast and fragile force as they are, but would also make them seducing and dangerous foe that is intended to fight against steadfast blocks. Deep ranks with furious would give them extra attacks and with ASF rerolls its good bonus and aura would help breaking steadfast, triggering fear and herald items. It would make them more Slaaneshi and define their role as a nonelite killers better.

Plaguebearers are good at 12pts
Cloud of flies +2pts per model: Opponent gets -1 to hit in melee.
Blessing of Plaguefather +2pts per model: Immune to killing blow (not heroic killing blow) and get ward saves against instant killing stat tests.
Stream of corruption +2pts per model: Instead of normal attacks each Plaguebearer could make one automatic S3 hit on opponents.
Nurgle gifts would make them stronger and more resilient and they cost lots since the effects themselves are very strong. Stream would give them some more tactical edge against weak opponents.

Horrors are good at 12pts but need total revamp of their spell casting abilities. Free bound spells thats power depends on their level was a good idea and it would definately make them more like an magical manifestations. I do not have well thought ideas of their magic systems though so I do not have much to comment here.


SPECIAL

Flesh hounds are good as they are, but they could be given options like:
Fury of Khorne +3pts/per model: Devastating charge special rule
Striders +2pts/per model: Strider rule
Hunters +4pts/per model: Rerolls to hit and wound against one enemy unit chosen in the beginning of the battle.
This would strenghen their fluffy role as hunting dogs of Khorne. They would move fast, strike furiously and could be nominated to hunt a specific target.

Screamers would either deserve points drop of 10pts or T4 for added endurance at the same points. I would go with 30pts and T4 as it fits idea of elite army more, they are skirmishers afterall, so killing them with shooting is bit more harder.
Screamers would also deserve furious charge rule to make them more appealing on warmachine hunting.
Protection of Tzeentch 3pts per model: MR2
Eaters of magic 5pts per model: Every wizard withing 6" of the screamers needs 1 more to cast spells.
Small increase of toughnes would make them more viable, as they are now more like a free kills. Magic protection would be against magic missiles. Furious assault would make them viable but bit expensive war machine hunters. Magic eaters would give them new role that fits their fluff and still would not be too harsh as they are very easy to kill.

Nurglings are pretty good as they are. Being lesser daemons of the Nurgle I wouldnt even give them any gifts.

Seekers at 20pts is fair or 24pts with 3 attacks each.
Soporific Musk +2pts/ per model: same effect as with fiends
Aura of Slaanesh +3pts/ per model: Opponent gets -1 to Ld when in base contact with daemonettes
Furious +2pts/ per model: Furious charge special rule.


RARE

Crushers are fine as they are, but equipment choises like letters might be nice:
Armor of Khorne +10pts/per model: 2+ armor and MR2
Fury of Khorne +5pts/per model: Devastating charge special rule
Bloodcrazy +5pts/per model: Frenzy special rule
Crushers could be customized to even more destructive force, but with frenzy they could also be misdirected easily. Their high points cost ensures that they would not be overpowered even with charge banner and many attacks.

Flamers are fine. In my opinion they are not even that great as some people say =)

Beasts of nurgle would be fine at 100pts each but with extra ability of Cloud of flies that gives opponent a -1 to hit penalty.
Playful +20 per model: Unit gains Stupid and stubborn special rules
Rotten to the core +10pts per model: Unit gains +3 regeneration
Trained monster +10 per model: You can reroll your random attacks for each model.
Playful upgrade would again suit their fluffy rules and give possibility to make them into a great anvils that might play some tricks on you. Bigger regeneration skill would again make them more suitable anvils that couls still be countered with flames. Trained would give them more fighting edge, but still keep them very random.

Fiends are great as they are
Scorpion tail +5 per model: Fiend gets additional S3 poisonous attack


SOME MORE IDEAS

As for lords, all greater daemons are just great as they are now (no pun intended) and they need no fixing. Daemon prince would be good choise as it is now, if it would benefit something from the marks like:
Khorne: +1S
Slaanesh: ASF
Nurgle: +1T
Tzeentch: Loremaster of Tzeentch
AND in addition being former mortal you could add him into units even though he is a monstrous creature. Those additions would justify his high points cost and make him viable choise on lists and it would even fit fluff wise as he was once a mortal and fights with his "comrades" like one even though he is now a daemon. Other greater daemons joining units would be way too powerful though, as their stats and gifts are lot more dangerous.

Intoducing rare choise chariots for different deities would be nice. There isnt even much work there to do, just by doubling the price of herald chariots you could get balanced and fine choises that would again make the army more unique.

These were my thoughts of the topic. I am sure I had more of them, but writing for so long I have forgotten half of them atleast =)

Appendix B – Daemons in the 41st Millennium
The advantage of the Daemon models is that most can be used for both Warhammer and 40k. With this in mind here follows some suggestions on how the new units we have created for Warhammer can be incorporated into the current Codex: Chaos Daemons. Here we have taken a two-fold approach, either they can be incorporated into an existing army using the “counts-as” rule, or the rules presented below can be added directly into the codex using White Dwarf (assuming there isn’t another simultaneous Warhammer and 40k release like the last one) in a similar manner to the Eldar Night Spinner.

“Counts-as” option

WARHAMMER UNIT – 40K “COUNTS-AS”
Be’Lakor – Daemon Prince
N’Kari – Keeper of Secrets
Eye of Tzeentch – Daemon Prince of Tzeentch
Phantasm – Daemon Prince of Slaanesh
Behemoth/Skullshrine – Herald of Khorne on Chariot
Changebringer – Herald of Tzeentch on Disc
Plague Toad/Plague Rider – Beast of Nurgle

New units option

HQ: N’Kari – 280pts
WS8, BS4, S6, T6, W4, I10, A7, Ld10, Save 4+
UNIT TYPE: Monstrous Creature
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Fleet.
Revelation of Dark Desires: At the start of the Daemon shooting phase, all enemy units within 18” of N’Kari have to take an Ld test. Any that fail take D6 wounds with AP-, ignoring cover saves.
DAEMONIC GIFTS: Soporific Musk, Aura of Acquiescence, Transfixing Gaze.
WARGEAR: The Unholy Spear – Any attacks made by N’Kari that roll a 6 to wound cause two wounds instead of one.

HQ: Herald of Nurgle
Add to mount options: Plague Toad (+20pts). The Plague Toad adds +1 to the Heralds Wounds and Attacks characteristics, and changes the Herald’s unit type from Infantry to Cavalry.

HQ: Herald of Slaanesh
Add to mount options: Serpent of Slaanesh (+25pts). The Serpent adds +1 to the Heralds Strength, Wounds and Attacks characteristics, and changes the Herald’s unit type from Infantry to Cavalry.

ELITES: Flamers
Add to list of options: Entire unit may be upgraded to Changebringers for +5pts. Changebringers are Flamers riding Discs of Tzeentch.

FAST ATTACK: Plague Toads – 24pts
WS2, BS0, S4, T4, W2, I2, A2, Ld10, Save 5+
UNIT TYPE: Beasts
Unit Size: 3-10 models
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Slow and Purposeful, Poisoned Attacks, Feel no Pain.
Options: One model may be upgraded to have Noxious Touch for +10pts.

FAST ATTACK: Pox Riders – 38pts
WS3, BS0, S4, T5, W2, I2, A3, Ld10, Save 5+
UNIT TYPE: Cavalry
Unit Size: 3-10 models
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Slow and Purposeful, Feel no Pain.
DAEMONIC GIFTS: Plagueswords
Options: One model may be upgraded to have Noxious Touch for +10pts, one may have a Chaos Icon for +25pts and one may have an Instrument of Chaos for +5pts.

HEAVY SUPPORT: Phantasm of Slaanesh – 140pts
WS5, BS3, S5, T5, W4, I5, A5, Ld10, Save 5+
UNIT TYPE: Monstrous Creature
Unit size: 1
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Fleet.
Divine Perfumes: This is a shooting attack that has the following profile:
Range: Template, S2, AP2, Assault 1
Any unit that takes casualties reduces its WS and I by –D3 for the rest of the player turn.
DAEMONIC GIFTS: Soporific Musk, Rending Claws.

HEAVY SUPPORT: Behemoth of Khorne – 160pts
Behemoth: WS5, BS0, S6, T6, W4, I2, A4, Ld10, Save 5+
Skullshrine: WS4, BS0, S6, T6, W4, I1, A3, Ld10, Save 5+
UNIT TYPE: Monstrous Creature
Unit size: 1
Options: The Behemoth may be upgraded to a Skullshrine for +10pts.
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic, Furious Charge.
Onslaught (Behemoth Only): On a turn when it assaults the Behemoth gets +D3 attacks instead of the usual +1, and any of its attacks that roll a 6 to wound inflict instant death as the enemy are trampled underfoot or smashed asunder.
Shrine of Khorne (Skullshrine Only): Every time a psyker within 24” of the Skullshrine successfully passes a psychic test roll a D6. On a roll of 4+ the psychic power is nullified and fails to work.
Daemon Chains (Skullshrine Only): Any psyker that rolls a 1 to hit when attacking the Skullshrine in combat suffers an immediate Perils of the Warp attack.
DAEMONIC GIFTS: Iron Hide, Blessing of the Blood God (Skullshrine Only).

HEAVY SUPPORT: Eye of Tzeentch – 140pts
WS3, BS4, S5, T5, W4, I3, A(D6+1), Ld10, Save 4+
UNIT TYPE: Monstrous Creature
Unit size: 1
SPECIAL RULES: Daemonic.
Whirling Blades: When the Eye engages in close combat, its star–armour angles towards the enemy and starts spinning, slicing into the enemy ranks and slicing off heads and limbs. To represent this, any enemy model that rolls a 1 when rolling to hit the Eye takes an automatic Strength 5 hit.
DAEMONIC GIFTS: Warpfire, Bolt of Tzeentch, Iron Hide.
Options: May take any of the following: Daemonic Gaze at +20pts; Master of Sorcery at +10pts; We are Legion at +40pts.

I can only talk of what i know, but:

Demonettes and Seekers should have kept a strenght of 4 instead of armor piercing, back like it always was. They are not supposed to be the cheap core choice of the book, but focus on high speed, skill and enough strenght to actually kill.

I'd also like the return of Pleasureseekers in the list.

As well, a mean for Demon princes to do anything else than stand pretty.

I can see both arguments for DP , but it would be really nice to have a cheap lord choose or take a herald as a lord in low point games.

Id really like to see GD have a 4+ ward I mean come on.

Lore attribute would be a nice touch maybe something like

Nurlge: + - 1 T to your unit or enemy unit (max 1 to each unit) and rework the breath weapon spell)

Tzeench: like lore of metal but for ward saves. Make firestorm better)

sleenesh: tack on a -1 ld maybe and change the ASF and re-roll to hit spell.

More Icons would be frosting.

Love Kitsune core ideas. Stream of corruption seems a bit weak and maybe make blessing immune to posin as well.

Seems like some great ideas. Might be nice to hear what some non-daemon players think of them.

i would like to add only one thing, greater deamon + stubborn its a must.

Table of Contents

Appendix A
This is the actual re-write. Presented in PDF-format mimicking an actual army book.

Appendix B - The 'Legion Lords'
In past incarnations of Chaos there have been Exalted Daemons, characters that were a middle-ground between Heralds and a Daemon Prince. We analysed the possibility of reintroducing something like this in the form of Infantry Lords to the Daemonic repertoir, which we named 'Legion Lords.'

This board was divided over the pro's, con's, and possible constingencies of adding a Lord choice (effectively bridging the gap between the Daemon Prince and Heralds) with the ability to join units. We decided not to include these Legion Lords in the actual re-write, but our drafts for what we envisioned can be viewed here as a reference.

It should be noted that after dropping the idea of these Legion Lords we made a lot of changes to the Daemon Prince that arguably makes the inclusion of Legion Lords obsolete. In essence, their inclusion would probably necessitate the Daemon Prince becoming more powerful and with a higher points cost to differenstiate it from these new Lord choices.

Appendix C - Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Chaos Daemons
This project has been focused on the Warhammer Fantasy Battles Daemons of Chaos, but consideration was naturally paid to the application of our suggestions in the 40k setting. Appendix C therefore presents a rough draft adressing how units like (for example) the Phantasm and Behemoth/Skullshrine could operate in Warhammer 40,000. It should be noted that, unlike our Fantasy Section, we have no immediate plans to playtest in Warhammer 40,000.

Appendix D - Concepts and models.
During the course of this project some of us have been inspired to create conceptual models for some of the new units that we suggest - pictures of these, as well as inspirirational material randomly found on the internet are bundled in this Appendix for reference.

Appendix E - Review of Playtesting for Warhammer Fantasy
As we submit this project to Games Workshop we have already started playtesting the contents of Appendix A. This has already led to minor changes to details (implemented in the first draft sent to Games Workshop) and will no doubt generate further changes down the line. Appendix D will be a separate submission at a later point, not included in the initial package sent to Games Workshop.
It should be noted that battle reports and discussion pertaining to them are being continously added to the thread at the Daemonic Legion Forum (www.thedaemoniclegion.com).

General Designer's Notes with regards to Appendix A - The Re-write

Introduction:
The purpose of this project has been 'flesh out' the existing Daemons of Chaos Army Book, essentially updating it for the 8th Edition of Warhammer Fantasy. 'Fixes' have been employed, rather than removal, when it comes to gifts and icons deemed problematic in the current Army Book; These are to be considered suggestions for how to keep these items, but we are humble to the fact that some old items are likely to be removed as new ones are inserted. This re-write has naturally been inspired by the army books released for 8th Edition thus far, and it is in that spirit that we sincerely hope our work will be a source of inspiration for the Lead Developer of the next Daemons of Chaos Army Book. This re-write is being sent to the Games Development Team, and will be followed by a more extensive "Playtest-Run" where we will report back to Games Development on our own findings.

Disclaimer! - While we have been taking this project very seriously, it is important to point out to any reader that this re-write is 100% fan-based and Games Workshop has not been involved, commented on, or 'supported' this project in any way. We're just a varied assortment of Daemon-players from around the world who have come together on a Forum (The Daemonic Legion) to discuss something that is very dear to us: Daemons of Chaos!

These 'Designer's Notes' will cover the sections of the army book as we have worked through them, focusing on those subjects where this 'consensus project' reached the least consensus. Details being mentioned briefly, or not at all, are such issues where consensus was reached by our Board. The purpose of these notes are, after all, to give a quick guide to the re-write so every new points cost or rules change will not be defended specifically. Before discussing these sections, some general 'principles of design' should be mentioned.

Daemonic Instability
We have decided to keep the mechanic of Daemonic Instability from the current army book, while acknowledging that both the "Storm of Magic" and "Tamurkhan" (Warhammer Forge) releases featured Daemons with the Unstable Special Rule. It is our view that Instability is a more interesting mechanic, and above all that it creates a good separation between Daemonic units and the Undead. Removing Instability for the sake of streamlining gameplay does not seem worthwhile to us. If it is indeed the ideological intent of the Games Development Team to remove Instability, we would prefer virtually every option over the Unstable rule (which belongs to 'dead things' in our view). For example, the old mechanic of entire units being removed when rolling higher than your unmodified leadership value in a break-test could be re-instated and this would be 'preferable' (despite requiring the same re-evaluations of points costs across the board) compared to giving Daemons the Unstable Rule, which in our view would simply turn Daemons into a ‘3rd Undead army’ for a lot of players.

We do acknowledge that Daemons are a 'strong' faction amongst the armies in Warhammer, particularly able (in our present army book) to create a vast array of competitive builds with great synergy. This issue has been partly addressed with a new version of Daemonic Rivalry that effects the Inspiring Presence of Daemonic Generals as well as rebalancing of the more powerful options currently available to Daemons.

Daemonic Rivalry
Our suggestion for Daemonic Rivalry is intended to be mostly a background-driven rule, although it's also intended to curtail the versatile synergies of the Daemon Army in a marginal way. The concept of Daemonic Rivalry has been embedded into this re-write in two ways:

First of all, we have embedded 'affiliation' in the already present Daemonic Special rule, where-by all Daemons (except Furies in the Daemon Prince) are specifically noted to serve a particular patron god; in the Army List this is seen by brackets e.g. Daemonic (Khorne). Daemonic generals, thus, only confer Inspiring Presence on Daemons that are servants of the same Chaos God. As will be further discussed below, changes have been made to the Daemon Prince (most importantly increasing its Leadership) will however allow players to have an Undivided General (getting Inspiring Presence on all Daemons), albeit with the downside of the 'Unmarked Daemon Prince' being more fragile - and having 6" less range on his Inspiring Presence - compared to the Greater Daemons.

Secondly, aside of the 'negative incentive' put on Daemonic Inspiring Presence; we suggest a 'positive incentive' with respect to the alignment of Battle Standard Bearer and the General of the Army. Essentially, if your Battle Standard Bearer and General are followers of the same Chaos God, the optional Icons the Herald may pick include not just the (4) 'standard' BSB-Icons but also any unused 'unit icon' from the Chaos power in question. In addition, we suggest the addition of a '5th' God-specific Battle Standard Icon, that is strongly themed to the background of each Chaos God, and naturally only available to the Battle Standard Bearer. Even then, it can only be taken as long as the Battle Standard Bearer and General are servants of the same Chaos God.

The majority of this board feels that our version of Daemonic Rivalry is soft enough in mechanical terms in order to not ruin specific players armies and private notions of 'how Daemons should be played', while at the same time imposing a degree of restriction that encourages background-driven lists and essentially gives Daemons a little weakness for all their inherent strengths. It is our sincere hope that the Lead Developer would look toward creating restrictions like this, rather than (for example) removing Gifts, Instability, Daemonic Aura, or re-instating the requirements of 'True Core' from previous editions.

Daemonic Gifts
We have decided to keep Daemonic Gifts working the same way they do in the current book. The number of Gifts available has been expanded, and this is to be regarded as a 'bundle' of suggestions for mechanics that we think would work well as Daemonic Gifts. We are aware that the number of Gifts will most likely be fewer in any official release, but we felt the nature of this re-write made it suited for making a broad set of suggestions. We have of course noted a decrease in army-specific Magic Items in other 8th edition army books - although all such armies are compensated by having access to a wide range of 'shared' Magic Items from the main rulebook. Indeed, the number of Gifts in our revision are almost exactly as many as the 'net total' of Magic Items available to other 8th Ed Army Books. Simply put, it is the sentiment of this Board that Daemons should have access to at least as many Gifts as currently.

The opinion of our Board was quite divided with respect to the two 'dispelling' Gifts (Spell Breaker and Spell Destroyer) - the question being whether there ought to be a special restriction making these particular Gifts only "0-1 per army." The argument for this is that other armies only get access to one Dispel Scroll. The opposing argument is the poor aesthetic/background of creating a special case for a certain set of Gifts; coupled with the fact that 'duplication' of these Gifts haven't been presented as a balance-problem by the community (i.e. most people rarely include more than one per army anyway). In addition, participants in this project also pointed out that despite the Dispel Scroll being a 0-1 choice Magic Item, most other armies have access to an array of other "anti-magic" items (which Daemons don't have access to at all) that compensate for only having access to one ‘auto-dispel’ item. We ultimately agreed that this issue is best left to the Games Development Team in its entirety.

Daemonic Icons
Acknowledging the Errata/FAQ that made them "Magic Standards" (i.e. 0-1 choices), we have followed suit and essentially doubled the number of available Icons to each Chaos power. The internal balance of the Battle Standards has also been addressed, and the options for Battle Standard Bearers have also been increased (i.e. the Battle Standard Bearer's optional Icons are increased in variety when the General of the army is a servant of the same Chaos God, as mentioned previously).

Upgrades
In order to increase the depth of the dynamic in our current book we've employed a general principle of "two upgrades" per unit. However, as you will be able to see throughout this re-write, there are a handful of units (Furies, Nurglings, Screamers, Flesh Hounds...) that have been left without such upgrades. These decisions have been taken mostly on a basis of background as it didn’t seem fitting for some of the units of ‘lower status’ to be endowed with 'upgrades'. Also, applying upgrades universally seemed superfluous (in some cases only adding 'rules creep', as it were).

New Units
This has been perhaps the most freely creative part of this project, as we've simply brainstormed a couple of new units (Behemoth of Khorne, Phantasm of Slaanesh, and The Eye of Tzeentch) as pure 'guesswork'. More so - at this point, even compared to the rest of this re-write - we are certainly humble to the fact that we have no idea what's actually being developed. Our basic guideline has been little more than looking at 'what other armies have been getting' in 8th Ed.

The idea of a dual-kit (i.e. a box that can either build a Slaanesh or a Khorne 'thing') was abandoned. We realise the desirability of a 'big cross-Mark dual kit', however, and wouldn't be surprised to see one in the future! In our opinion, the vast conceptual difference between Daemons of different Marks is poor grounds for making a "dual-kit" aesthetically. Hence, in this re-write are suggestions for three God-specific units (all are monsters in the Rare Section), which we imagine could be released in separate boxes (Finecast or Plastic).

We could see a 'dual-kit' working with a "Daemonic Cauldron" or "Daemonic Altar" (or similar contraption), but it was the unison sentiment of this board that this would fit Daemons rather poorly. New units should be Daemons in our opinion, and the reason for installing our suggestions in the Rare Section is mostly that the Core and Special Sections had already gained another five units not currently available.

We have suggested the addition of 'new' units that exist through Forge World (Plague Toads and Pox Riders) as well as reinstating Daemonic Chariots as fully independent Special units (all bar the Nurgle-chariot since this one is not featured in the current book even as a mount!). These new units have been sprinkled across the sections, as will be discussed further below. Most notably, Plague Toads are the only addition in the Core Section, and this is 'balanced' by there being no new Nurgle unit in the Rare Section. While every other Chaos power gets a Chariot in the Special Section, Nurgle gains Pox Riders instead.

Army Composition
It is worth noting specifically that Bloodcrushers and Fiends have been 'moved' to the Special Section. This was prompted by the additions of new units that would otherwise have 'crowded up' the Rare Section. The changes to Bloodcrushers and Fiends were not dependant on this move to the Special slot, however, except for the minimum unit-sizes being changed from 1+ to 2+ (Bloodcrushers) and 3+ (Fiends), as would seem appropriate for Special units. This move to the Special Section is 'conditional' on the inclusion of the other Rare Units that we have added. Bloodcrushers and Fiends (without the addition of other Rare Units) could very well remain Rare Units and thus accordingly keep their 1+ unit size requirement - although comparable units in new Army Books for 8th Edition are all Special Units.

Furies have also been moved to the Special Section, in an attempt to follow precedence of other army books in 8th edition. Their current status of not counting toward any requirement/restriction seems to be a thing of the past, put simply.

Designer's Notes on the Sections of the Army Book:

CORE UNITS
Plague Toads have been added here, using rules fairly identical to the experimental rules provided by Forge World prior to the Tamurkhan release.
The already existing Core units have received minor changes to points costs where appropriate, and each unit has been endowed with two optional upgrades each.

SPECIAL UNITS
This section has grown considerably compared to our current army book. We have reintroduced Chariots for Khorne, Slaanesh and Tzeentch as independent units, and Furies, Fiends and Bloodcrushers have been moved to this section.

**************

RARE UNITS
Flamers of Tzeentch and Beasts of Nurgle remain in this section, mostly changed with respect to the optional upgrades they have been endowed with. In addition, here we also find the Behemoth of Khorne, the Phantasm of Slaanesh and the Eye of Tzeentch - our ideas for 'big kits' that are becoming a much cherished signature of army releases for 8th Edition.

HERALDS
The Heralds have received a minor increase in cost across the board, minor changes have also been applied individually: Most notably the option for Slaanesh/Nurgle Heralds to buy a second Magic Level. Another change worth mentioning is the addition of Ballistic Skill for the Herald of Khorne - as prompted by Daemonic Gifts that requires Ballistic Skill.

LORDS
*The Legion Lords* - These profiles have been kept in a separate Appendix for reference. They can be described as a creative 'merge' between the current Daemonic Heralds and the 'Exalted Daemons' that once existed in the Game. These profiles are very 'rough' compared to our other suggestions - and are to be reviewed as such.

The Daemon Prince - Keeping the basic structure of this unit it still turned out to be probably the most revamped unit in this re-write. Both our Board and all external sources agreed, quite simply, that the Daemon Prince in the current Army Book needs a very definite overhaul. Our suggestion for Daemonic Rivalry also makes the Unmarked Daemon Prince an important part of the Lord Section, further adding the need of making it generally more viable.
Therefore the improvements made to this profile may appear as extreme to the casual observer. Aside of a cut in basic cost, the Daemonic Marks are suggested to carry 'Daemonic traits' (i.e. Hatred & MR for Khorne etcetera), the Gift Allowance have been increased to a full 100pts with the added benefit of freer access to 'Marked Gifts'. The 'Winged Majesty' (Wings) was added due to the removal of the Winged Horror Gift, and if taking the Mark of Nurgle one may also mount a Daemon Prince on a Palanquin.
As radical improvements for the Daemon Prince as we've suggested, there were still members of this Board who thought we hadn't 'gone far enough'. The discussion was oftentimes profound, long and heated. Given the 'new' role of the Daemon Prince in this re-write, and given the huge disparity between the opinions of different Board-members, the profile submitted is merely a benchmark for play testing (and the Daemon Prince will be a key focus of such testing!).

The Greater Daemons - We essentially added a 6th wound to these profiles and re-evaluated their point costs individually. The Bloodthirster ended up considerably more expensive as a result of this, while the 3 other Greater Daemons are fairly equal in cost compared to the current Army Book.
Minor 'tweaks' (mostly background-driven) were applied to other Stats on their profiles (such as the Movement of the Keeper and Great Unclean One being reduced slightly).
Origins of our revised Greater Daemons - The reason why we put such priority to adding a 6th wound to their profiles is not entirely based in nostalgia. We simply felt that in order for Greater Daemons to remain 'great' in the environment of 8th Edition having 6 wounds is basically necessary. Another much discussed option was to endow the Greater Daemons with same kind of 'traits' that Heralds possess - coupling this with the addition of a 6th wound would have prompted these profiles to become too expensive (not fitting into 'normal' games, as it were) so we were forced to make a choice.

SPECIAL CHARACTERS
General Note on the Special Characters - We have kept ourselves to suggesting two new Special Characters, and it seemed reasonable to add a Character to a 'slot' that is empty in the current Army Book. Presently, we have no Special Character that is either a Daemon Prince, or a Keeper of Secrets. At this point we surveyed the history of the lore of Warhammer Fantasy and picked out Be'lakor (Daemon Prince) and N'kari (Keeper of Secrets) to be our candidates.
The Special Characters already present in our current book have all been more or less re-worked from a rather strict perspective of fixing imbalances. Save for the Changeling all the current Special Characters remain largely the same at surface - although the Changeling is no longer a champion-upgrade but instead a Special Character Herald, which deserves a special mention.

DAEMONIC GIFTS
General Note Concerning the Daemonic Gifts: - The Winged Horror Gift being the singular exception, we have not suggested any removals of Gifts that are available in our current book. The majority of these Gifts have been more less edited however, mostly in terms of basic point cost but we have also changed the mechanics for some of them. Some of these Gifts will be mentioned specifically below (e.g. 'Siren Song', 'Master of Sorcery' etcetera) due their pivotal role in the Army.
New Gifts - This Board has made a handful of suggestions for New Gifts in each Mark-Section as well as for the 'Undivided Gifts'. Some Daemonic Characters have also gotten access to Gifts previously not available to them - such as the Keeper of Secrets getting access to "Unnatural Swiftness" as we have removed its present Always Strikes First 'innate' Special Rule. Most of these edits speak for themselves - in 'Appendix A' - and will not be dealt with in detail in these Designer's Notes.
Siren Song - There are two sides to this Gift in our current Army Book. On the one hand it is widely considered to be a crutch for Daemon players, while on the other hand the Siren Song Gift is rather integral to make a Slaanesh-heavy (or even a 'MonoSlaanesh') army function at a competitive level. Since it has been our ambition to make Slaanesh Daemons function without this crutch, it was only natural to effectively decrease the utility of the Siren Song Gift by some degree. Essentially, our version of this Gift is much harder to use as well as easier for the opponent to counter - while remaining the same cost as presently.
Master of Sorcery - While very suiting in terms of background, this Daemonic Gift is simply too cheap in points - specifically for the Herald of Tzeentch. Since it was the devout opinion of a majority of this Board that Tzeentch Daemons (of all Wizards!) should have access to Loremaster-abilities we spent alot of time creating a balanced set-up. This required fixing more than merely changing Master of Sorcery specifically, and our solution can be reviewed by surveying the [edited] Master of Sorcery Gift, the [new] Loremaster Gift, the [new] Arcane Knowledge Gift, as well as the [new] 'Universal Loremaster' Special Rule that we have given the Lord of Change.
The new 'dynamic' and cost of this new set-up of 'magic-access Gifts' should be apparent to the reader at this point. As the Herald of Tzeentch needs to get both the "Master of Sorcery" and the "Loremaster" Gift in order to get today's equivalent of "Master of Sorcery" (i.e. knowing a full BRB Lore) we have effectively doubled the cost of this upgrade from 25pts to 50pts. This increase of cost was the main point of changing this Gift. We see further improvements with this set-up however, as it grants a choice to the Daemon player between everything from merely knowing 2 spells from the Tzeentch Lore, to knowing a BRB Lore with one extra spell (Master of Sorcery + Arcane Knowledge), to spending its entire Gift Allowance in order to know a Full BRB Lore.
As has been mentioned, in order to make the cost appropriate also for the Lord of Change, it is no longer merely Loremaster of the Tzeentch Lore (as currently) but carries its status of Loremaster over to any Lore it may opt to choose thanks to the [new] "Master of Sorcery" Gift. Many of us felt that we really 'nailed it' in terms of fixing the issue of Master of Sorcery and we cannot wait to continue play testing it!
Slaanesh Leadership-based Gifts - Under this heading we are dealing with Gifts such as Tormentor, Allure of Slaanesh and Enrapturing Gaze in the Slaanesh Gift Section. The reasons for our editing with respect to these Gifts has been based largely on the new environment of 8th Edition (re-rolls due to Battle Standards) which have made some costs and mechanics inappropriate. Our findings were that while Temptator merely needed a halved cost, and Enrapturing Gaze only a minor tweak to the actual wording, the Allure of Slaanesh Gift simply needed a new mechanic (based on Initiative rather than Leadership) as well as a new cost.
Auras of the Gods - Amongst the various other Gifts we've added to the different Sections of Marks there's also the 'Auras' - which have been consistently added for each Daemonic Mark. Tzeentch- and Nurgle Characters thus getting access to improved Wardsave and Regeneration respectively needs no further explanation, while we allowed ourselves to do something a little different with the Aura of Khorne: The reason being (1) that the Gift Immortal Fury already exists (and Heralds already have Hatred innately), and (2) that Khorne ought to have a really cheap Gift just as the other 3 Marks. Thus every Mark now has Gifts ranging from 5pts and up.
The Aura of Slaanesh turned out to be identical to a certain Vampiric Power in the new Vampire Counts Army Book (released long after this project started) - but we sincerely felt that the Vampires were borrowing into the domain of Slaanesh Daemons (rather than the opposite) with respect to this and decided to keep the Aura of Slaanesh as we originally envisioned it. The reason being that Leadership-altering abilities is strongly associated with Slaanesh Daemons, and by neutering the strength of items such as The Great Icon of Despair and the Masque of Slaanesh, by at the same time creating a Slaanesh Gift that reduces Leadership we have shifted the power of Daemons to alter enemy Leadership further toward Slaanesh.
Death Strike - A Gift from the Khorne Section, borrowed from the world of Warhammer 40,000. This suggested addition prompted us to endow Heralds and Greater Daemons of Khorne with a value for Ballistic Skill. By the addition of this Gift every Mark of Daemons gets access to some sort of shooting/breath attack, which in our mind creates a good dynamic.
Awesome Strength - Coupled with a slight increase to its cost we suggest that the effect of this Gift be exempt from the normal rules (as per official Errata/FAQ) regarding Special Rules never interacting with Stomp/MonsterStomp. The alternative is to keep the increase to Strength (10) and forego the special case interaction with MonsterStomp - in which case the Gift should simply be conciderably cheaper.
Torment Blade - It's important to note that we wish to see the current wording of "Hand Weapon" removed from the description of this Gift - as it's caused confusion in the community on whether the Torment Blade is supposed to count as an 'extra hand weapon' in addition to the 'magical' effect of the Gift. 5pts is a good cost for the special effect, but does not seem to cover an extra attack as well (and certainly not for the Keeper of Secrets!).
Staff of Change - This Gift has also been revised, and most importantly it also carries the same wording of 'hand-weapon' in our current Army Book (like the Torment Blade) which should be removed in our opinion.

DAEMONIC ICONS
Introducing the Daemonic Icons - Our current Army Book clearly was not written with the intent of Daemonic Icons being 0-1 choices. This is however an explicit ruling from official Errata/FAQ and we've chosen to adhere to these changes. All the Icons in the present book have been kept (except the Battle Standard 'Banner of Hellfire') all though in most cases modified. We have also added 2 'unit-icons' to each Mark, as well as 1 Marked Battle Standard to each Mark (the latter being an option for the Battle Standard Bearer exclusively, but being stipulated by alignment of affiliation (Mark) between Battle Standard Bearer and the General of the Army - as already mentioned.
We also suggest different Allowances in terms of cost for units depending on whether they are Core (<35pts), or Special/Rare (<50pts) in order for a more interesting structure to be possible.
Undivided Battle Standards
The four (4) shared Battle Standards are allocated to the Battle Standard Bearer as in our current Army Book. In addition, but restricted by the choice of the Army's General, each Mark also has a '5th' Battle Standard Icon that may be carried by a Herald of corresponding Mark.

DAEMONIC LORES
The origin of the Daemon Lores of Magic - Aside of the obvious edits prompted by 8th Edition (Signature Spells, Lore Attributes & 'Boosted' Spells) we have followed the guideline of building on the present Army Book in this Section just as in the rest of this project. Some spells have been changed dramatically but as a rule we have tried to keep as much as possible of the current Lores.
One spell has naturally been designated the status of Signature, and each Lore has also gotten a 7th spells just as all other 8th Edition Lores.
The biggest across the board change made to the Daemonic Lores of Magic has simply been to increase Casting Values for practically every spell - which, again, only seemed appropriate!
Above all, the general traits of our Daemonic Lores have been kept in mind here as Tzeentch (for example) portrays a lot of damage-spells with a high element of randomness, and Slaanesh naturally deals much in psychological effects.

Initial Results of Play Testing

From the handful of playtests that have been conducted at this point we are in good spirit about having broadly reached the goal of our endeavor: Our rendition of Daemons obviously still displays all the things that makes this Army unique, but at the same time the 'sharp edges' have been toned down considerably making many a match-up more interesting. The addition of upgrades for units presents the player with an abundance of tactical choices in list-building - where-as a too extensive use of upgrades will render the Daemon Army extremely expensive (thus weakened) as a whole. We will continue our play testing, but so far results have been very uplifting!

Once having gathered sufficient data, we indend on submitting a second package to Games Workshop detailing our finding in play testing and any changes to our revision of the Army Book that may have occured in this process.

White Dwarf Rules-Patch Amendments:
- As a response to the new units and general rules-changes implemented by Games Workshop (via the White Dwarf) in August 2012 we removed the following entries from our re-write:

Phantasm of Slaanesh 180pts
(50x100mm base)
Phantasms, like Fiends, are variations of the dreaming presence of the Great Tempator Slaanesh. They can vary greatly in appearance, but invariably has the lower body of a multicolored serpent and the upper body reminding of a Fiend or Keeper/Large Daemonette.
M8, WS5, BS0, S5, T5, W4, I5, A5, Ld7
Unit type: Monster
Special rules: Armour piercing, Swiftstride, Terror, Sopoforic Musk, Divine Perfumes, Extatic Caress.
Divine Perfumes Breathe Weapon S2, -3 save mod, any unit that takes a wound from the attack is at -D3 WS & BS and I until the end of the next player turn. Roll once for all stats.
Extatic Caress = In each round of combat the Phantasm may forego its normal attacks (it may still Thunder Stomp and use its Divine Perfumes) and instead make a single attack against one enemy model in base contact. If this attack hits the Phantasm coils itself around the enemy model. Both the Phantasm and its victim roll a D6 and add their Strength. If the enemy model scores highest it breaks free immediately and may attack as normal that combat phase (providing it hasn't done so already). If the scores are equal or the Phantasm scores highest the enemy model takes a number of hits equal to the difference in scores (if any), wounding automatically with no armour saves allowed. In addition the enemy model may not attack this round of combat if it hasn't done so already. The victim is assumed to break free at the end of the phase before calculating Combat Resolution.
Options:
1. Sidewinder - +10pts Gains strider rule
2. Thrasher - +15pts May re-roll # of Stomps.

Seeker Chariot 130 points.
Stats same as current Mount-option + 'Scythed' and 'Armour Piercing' Special Rule
2 Daemonettes as Crew.
Crew Options
1. Rending Claws +10pts = 'as per Gift'
2. Aura of Slaanesh +25pts = 'as per Gift'
Chariot Option
'Ascended', +10 points/model, Adds a third Seeker Steed to the Chariot - also optional upgrade for Character Mount Type Chariot, and note that unlike other chariots the Character replace both Daemonettes when Seeker Chariot is taken as Mount.

These units were swapped for the new Slaanesh Chariot Variants presented in the White Dwarf.

GREATER DAEMONS

Greater daemons definately do not need stubborn. Sure it is nasty when you have bad luck and your 500pts greater just melts away, but that is very unlikely thing to happen. Unbuffed Thirster for example deals avarage of 6,81 wounds with stomps on T4 Ws5 guys with As4 or lower. Add some gifts and you get even bigger number and considering that most greaters are very fast they are likely going to get the charge bonus which means avarage of 7-8 combat resolution. You really need some rotten luck there as opponent even needs 5+ to hit and 5 or 6+ to wound and still has to pass through armor and ward.

4+ wards on greater daemons would be quite darn powerful. Imagine killing GuO with that or KoS with spirit swallower, ouch. Only daemon I could give that would be lord of Change for the same reason that he gets better ward in 40k, he Changes forms, twists reality and thats why is hard to wound. He is also daemon with worst defences since he has low Ws and no ways of getting more protection like armor, ld tests, regeneration or stuff like that.

GuO already has his gift that makes him appear as a good and loving father and that is Nurgling infestation. Making him able to join bearers would be horrible points denial. Imagine steadfast train of plaguebearers with GuO and herald in the first rank. It would be almost impossible to break through.

Locus to share to all nearby models would be too powerful as you could get several heralds benefits with only one greater daemon. For example 2 bloodletter hordes would gain hatred if nearby with the thirster so you could save points with Khorne heralds and get Tzeentch heralds there to buff them even further. Alone it is not that bad, but if combined with rest of the army it gets bit nuts. It would be bit like Skarbrand but not as good. Well, maybe for 35pts upgrade might work or something like that.

MAGIC LORES

After thinking lores overnight I came up with some ideas about Tzeentch lore:
Lore attribute: Illusions and insanity
Casters who pick lore of Tzeentch are masters of deceit and they seem to have no obvious weaknesses as their bodies have no real form. They get +1 to their ward save and transfer this to the unit too if heralds. (with this heralds of tzeentch would give 4+ ward to horrors and locus could be something different, like horrors gaining D3 power dice for their own use which would make them more viable unit again. LoC would get his 4+ ward, but ofcourse lose it if he would pick some other lore)

Signature spell, Flicker fire as it is

1. Boon of Tzeentch as it is
2. Glean magic with 8+ to cast
3. Gift of chaos as it is
4. Bolt of Change as it is
5. Changelings, 13+ casting value
Augment spell that could only be cast on horrors. Horrors copy WS, S, T, I and A from one unit it is fighting in close combat. Lasts for your turn. (again I used the random theme of Tzeentch here. It would make horrors viable fighting unit but against some armies this spell would be totally useless like skavens for example or prove only little use like with high elves. Not overpowered but definately fluffy and fun)
6. Tzeentch firestorm as 16+ casting value
Every model in the unit takes a Strenght D6 hit with armor saves taken normally. Horror is created for every 3 unsaved wound etc etc. (this way lore would have its own mass destruction spell that has very unique Tzeentch feel on it. Higher casting cost is for pink horrors could spam it too and it has potential on killing even elite units with S6).


CORE CHOISES

I was thinking of daemonettes having S4, but after doing some math realised that it would be too good and I think I saw what GW was intending to make them to. With S4, 10 daemonettes compared to 10 letters would deal 5,33 wounds vs 4,89 against most foes and with ASF rerolls they would become even better. So then we would have faster and stronger Bloodletters that have no real weakness but superior herald choises. Instead I think GW had in mind to make daemonettes an unit that slaughters goblins, normal men and like, but they didnt balance them throughly. By giving them "Fight with additional rank" they would fit this role perfectly, by being better in combat against those foes than bloodletters but still being balanced with ASF rerolls and weaker against armored foes where letters on the other hand would do well.

For Plaguebearers I made the vomit S3 because automatic hits are quite powerful and if combined with banner of seeping decay it would become too powerful if the vomit did more damage. Imagine 30 S3 hits with rerolls, it is quite nice already.


SPECIAL

Screamers in units of 3 are quite ok, but in bigger groups they cost way too much and are too easy to kill, thus I suggested T4 or points reduction.

About those daemons that were left off. Pleasureseekers were daemonettes riding on a "titwyrm", the one you can get with chaos mortal champion. Changebringers were flamers on discs and Plagueriders were bearers riding on a plaguebeasts. Pleasureseeker is almost identical to what fiends are now, but they could reintroduce them something like "elite fiends" or single model unit or even as a herald choise.


RARE

I would put chariots here because in special choises one could use 50% of points on them and make almost full chariot army. Being on rare choises you would be limited on picking too many and would have to choose between other equally good rares. You could however make very intresting combinations with chariots supporting your core troops for example.

By the way, long writings like in this thread are really intresting and fun. This is how forums should be, keep it going =)

Agreed. This is the sort of substantial brainstorming that really entertains.

My comments, following your mark Kitsune.

Greaters:

Stubborn is too powerfull even a Daemon-lover like myself can see that. There need to be some "holes" that the opponants can use to have a chance. A Stubborn Thirster would be able to front-charge almost anything and just send it running by round 4. It would have cost like 700 points vanilla and with the new percentage restrictions for army-building I don't think that's viable.

Wardsave. I only EVER meant that the LoC should have a 4+ WardSave. I maintain this. Either it gets 4+ Ward or it should be substantially cheaper - because well right now it's just too easy to remove.

You're probably right about the GoU being too powerfull in a steadfast-bus. Then again, all you need is one Purple Sun and *poff* that GoU is all by his lonesome again. :P So you got me like half-convinced here I must say, because the basic concept (like I said before) has a very strong appeal beyond conciderations for game-play.

I Skarbrand really any good to begin with? I don't use SC's but Skarbrand never stood out as competative.. Unless you play against Dark Elves of course.. hehe Then I might have used him.

Anyways, about the "Locos for Greater Daemons" issue I think we can argue back and forth really. Sure, you are right about a Bloodthirster being able to boost two Bloodletter Hordes thus saving you the hero points for Tzeentch heralds with Light/Beasts Lores that makes the Bloodletters even crazier. On the other hand, I still don't buy the "competative" part of paying ~500 points for a Thirster that just stands on the front-line. My point is that you'll still want that guy flying around causing havoc while the Hordes are nearing the enemy - the Locus would be more of circumstantial bonus for whenever the Thirster charges into an already ongoing battle where the Letter-Herald has been struck down.

No big deal. My main issue with Greater Daemons, and yes it is a minor boost but not a crazy one I think, is that some of their Gifts should be removed from their "Gift-choices" and simply insterted into their vanilla Cost. Like "Re-rolling hits" for Bloodthirster - just increase his point-cost and let him buy something "less obvious" for those 25 points. And while you're at it increase his pointcost by 50 (not only 25!) so as to remedy some of the worst whining.

Same thing with the GoU. It should, conceptually, have Regen. I am less concerned about the cost for this. Just want the rules to "feel right".

Lore Attribute, New Spells Etc.
Good thinking there as usual man! I only really have ONE issue that I really feel I must go against and that's still concerning The Firestorm. Your "version" is not nasty enough in my humble opinion. My suggestion is more like this:
Tzeentch Firestorm, Casting value: ~18+
Every model in unit takes a D6+2 Strength Flaming Hit (roll only once for the Strength Value, of course) with normal saves allowed, for every wound (or, at the very least, every Second wound) caused a Horror is created blablabla. Tzeentch Firestorm can also be cast on ~28+ in which case the range is increased to 48".

Something like that.. Come on Kitsune! hehe This is the Mega Spell of the Mega Lore of the Mega Magic Daemon Lord of Mysteries we're talking about.. It's gotta at least compare to the Purple Sun, Dweller's, etc.

Generally speaking I find your level-headed approach invaluable for actually having a discussion because you're right I tend to let my enthusiasm get the better of me - but sometimes I must say I think you're being a little too careful. Please don't take this the wrong way, I know I'm a charlatan just shooting from my hip whereas you make a more scentific evaluation of things, but still, in the case of Tzeentch Firestorm I say (again, mostly a conceptual standpoint) that it must/should be set in relation to the nuke-spells of the BrB lores.

Daemonettes. Your reasoning seems really solid and balanced here.

Pleaguebearers. Is that vomit attack supposed to be a breathe-weapon (one use only) or more like trolls can vomit as much as they want? In the latter case S3 is fine, if it is one use only I'd say slap on S4 and let it become that "fist in the face" the opponant knows he's got to ride out when he's failed to Purple-Nuke them. B)

Screamers.
As I've said earlier I am completely ok with giving them T4. It would also work just fine to drop them like ten points and just leave it at that. I had one idea of my own about them that I think got lost in the haze with my original post that I am gonna mention again because it would be really interesting to see what you're educated thoughts are:

Let the Toughness and point cost remain the same. But change their Slashing Attacks to "One hit per rank/file" instead of just one hit per unit. Do you follow my reasoning? - A Screamer passing over a horde from the side would cause 10 hits, for example.

They would be just as easy to remove, only whenever the enemy actually fails to remove them they will actually Do Some Damage. Because right now they just don't have Any edge at all - and frankly even if they did have T4 I'm not overly convinced they'd be that much better.. Unless you slap on that Furius Charge bit you mentioned earlier so that they can at least hunt warmachines.

Chariots and whether they should be Rare or Special.

Your argument for not having them as Special is my argument for having them as Special. hehe - If someone converts enough chariots to make an "all chariot" DoC army then more power to him, I say.

Ok seriously, maybe you're right. But I think it'd meam that well at least Beasts of Nurgle might have to move to the Special Section (not that I would use them even as a Core choice under current conditions.. or well.. as a Core choice maybe I would actually but..)

This will be bit shorter comment, but lets get started. About GuO and steadfast buss: not every army will have lore of death or be able to roll purple sun it or cast it freely with irresistable force. Would you pick lore of death against daemons if you dont know what your facing? Letters being I4 and most of the characters having high stats and even magic resistance would make lore of death quite poor choise and you would more likely pick something else.

We do not play spacial characters either for most of the time, but sometimes we get crazy and just test them for laughs. Scabard is quite insane to be honest. Have him and your Nurgle guys will reroll hits (more poisons), you do not need khorne heralds, fiends will become insane and so on and ofcourse he has a breath weapon. About greaters giving locus to nearby units you are right for me being bit too careful there. Being extra careful is usually better when making rules and stuff, but this subject I am not entirely sure and some game testing might give good hints on how it works.

Tzeentch firestorm as I suggested would already be powerful. Do not forget that it summons magic casting daemons and possibility of S6 hits to every model can sweep even a chosen horde at ease and thats something none of the other mass destructions do. Also imagine that you deal 50 S4 hits on empire halberdiers for example. Thats avarage of 33 kills and 11 horrors behind or next to it. Those new horrors would channel dice, be able to cast spells can even rear charge and remove rank bonuses. On S5 or 6 you would cause 40 kills and create 13 horrors. It would have chance of being extremely potent mass destruction but also could only inflict some S1 hits, and since it allows all saves heavy armor, wards and magic resistance could still help there and balance it out. Number of kills with S4 are afterall quite darn good for 16+ spell if you compare it to dwellers or purple sun for example where for example dwellers would likely kill half of the halberdiers which is less than firestorm at S4.

I was thinking that Nurgle plaguebearers would use their vomit like trolls, so S3 would be fit. I would be tempted to lower points cost of the screamers but that might break the low in numbers elite army theme a bit, so I would instead buff their skills. Doing hits on ranks would be too good unfortunately, as even one screamer could deal 5+ S5 hits on a normal block, and with 6 screamers it would come just silly. Considering their fluff they could have a rule like "preying the weak" that would make them deal D3 S5-7 hits (might be bit too tough) on the foes that have less numbers than screamer unit. This would make them ideal war machine hunters, but still very easy to kill and still expensive in points.

Chariots would in my opinion fit in the rare section, as most of the fast and hard hitting choises are there already. Making them special choises would mean that you could spend 25% on rare fast choises like fiends and ~50% on special and herald chariots to make army where everything moves 10" or more and hits lick bricks. That would be pure point and click army where opponent would rarely have time to counter anything thanks to dazzling speed of the daemons.

ass almost all my thoughs said only one thing i have to add i guess.
GUO and PB imune to poison that only looks notmal, i mean a body that is made fro diseases ad plagues should be poisoned :)

Then they just say "well, soldiers coat their weapons in holy water"
Because you can poison an skeleton, why not poison an nurgle daemon :P

because GUO doesnt have blood, venom is there instead of blood :P

In order to create magic casting horrors, the firestorm need to inflict 18 wounds (6 spawned)...which it cant, unless you add the horrors to an existing horror unit within 1" of the target, or i read the spell wrong.

I'd have no problem with demonettes fighting in extra ranks, that could perhaps solve the issue with them as the weakest core.

You're right: The CURRENT Tzeentch Firestorm can't create a magic-casting unit AT ALL. It, by definition, can never happen since the number of hits inflicted is finite (not any 8th Ed "one hit per model in unit" shennanigans) and since you create a New Unit every time you cast it - so all you get is a bunch of small Horror-units that can't negate ranks, can't cast spells, and are worth 50 victory points to the enemy even though you usually have like one or two (if you're lucky) horrors being created from casting the spell.

Me and Kitsune have been talking about how this spell should be turned into a Real destruction spell - an issue where, as usual, Kitsune is alot more moderate than I am..

I want it to be a "remove your deathstar from the table Now, please" spell.

Kitsune thinks half is enough. :D

So will mine, a little pressed on time right now.

- About the GoU battlebus. Ok I'll let that one go.. You're right of course. It's just that my Plaguebearers tend to get Purple Sunned for some reason.. I guess my friends sneak-beak in army-builder to check what I am bringing..

- About Locus. I hope it was clear that I meant that the Locus would ONLY work on the respective troops from the given Mark, right? In any case, like I said you got me half-convinced it would be overpowered.

- In Tzeentch Firestorm. I guess your version is pretty powerfull as well. It's the mere "possibility" of rolling a 1 for Strength value that I really wanted to remove with the "D6+2" clause. Because in all seriousness it doesn't seem to matter much if the strength is 6 or 8 - still wounds on 2+ when you're making those 50 hits and sure there might be some armour saves taken on Strength 6 which certainly won't be there at Strength 8. Still, oh well, you're probably right..

- Sceamers. Ok maybe not one hit per rank/file. Somehow I think it would be fun 'cause it would at least make them a "Remove that unit or this is gonna Hurt" kind of unit-choice. Now they're a "Remove that unit when you got nothing better happening on your flank, or they will annoy you a little bit."

- Since Chariots can't march which (as of the Burning Chariot) is a good thing, I'm not convinced a Special Choice Chariot would be all that broken. Couldn't it be mended with the pricing in point? Again, you're probably right I just don't like that the Rare section is swamped with stuff that cancels itself out in army composition (then again, maybe that's the point..).

Cheers!

DaemonReign I completely agree with you on the GD having hate , Regen built in.

Would a 4++ on greater daemons be that awful ? its only one higher. Gives us a coin flip vs cannons and vs 30 arrow shoots or 10 attacks not a big change. for a 550+ point model is it so bad to make them shoot 2 cannons to kill it

Kitsune the only thing about your Tzeench lore attribute is it dose not add anything to the spell. It really is more of a locus. if you made it +1 to ward every time he cast you have something interesting and a game of who cast spells to try and live longer.

I had a question about the PB breath attack, is it all PB that get the attack or just the ones that can attack? so would you need a hoard to get 30 attacks?

Agreed with Greater demons should have a 4++ ward save, they typically loose wounds due to combat resolution anyway.

Canon balls should not have good odds of crippling a 550 pts model in one go, especially that now they are more or less glorified sniper rifles.

And that is why they should get a 4++ not stubborn. I would go as far as a 3++ on Tzneech.

Daemonreign: Yeah you were clear about locus effect of greaters. I would like to playtest that a bit before deciding as it can have some tactical value. Making it 35pts gift would be balanced as it prevents from taking some gifts.

Flamestorm would be quite alright even when cast at S2 or 3 as it would still inflict many casualities on T3 troops with size of 40+. Reason why it needs to be bit more random is that you could pick army with LoC and 3 horror blocks and simply annihilate everything with magic if the spell was so powerful. With random factor you can never be too sure. I might even consider raising the cost to 18 or 20+ or making it range 12" with level 2 cast of 21 and 24".

Screamers are the most point effective unit in the daemon army with their slashing attacks and their only weakness is their low endurance, they just die far too easily. 6 automatic S5 hits kills pretty reliably 5 T3 troops and if they fly over 2 or even 3 units they kill 5-15 in a single phase. Thats 3 ranks off in total, so I would say it is more than just a small nuisance.


deviant cadaver and Depravity: 4++ ward on a greater daemon is too tough in my opinion. Cannons are not only thing that threaten daemons, but armies like WoC and skaven would likely add D6 strenght bolts on them. Greaters are fast and can easily position themselves to be out of LoS for many wizards and most have abilities that can protect them from ranged. KoS can pull mobs to him with siren and be safe from combat that way, LoC can use magic to protect him, GuO actually gets 4+ reg and only Thirster is without protection. Some could get daemonic robes too. Instead of having 4++ save, daemonic robes could be buffed to give 5+ armor so it would give more protection against small bolts and shooting. 4++ save with T6 and high Ws is very hard to counter and heralds could pick life to heal them. It is totally different in 40k where balance is more on shooting than in melee, but in fantasy battle I would keep 5+ wards. Greaters will rarely lose combats even against high static resolution, as thunderstomp and many high strenght attacks guarantee most daemons 5+ kills.

Tzeentch lore attribute sure is more like a Locus. Any ideas on some other lore attribute? About bearers, I would work their vomit attack out like trolls vomit so all 30 could attack. It might be bit too strong like that and S2 could be more fitting.

My feeling is that the LoC is the only Greater Daemon that ought to have 4++ Ward. It's just too silly the way a big block pancy crossbows can remove it one phase. To hell with balance, that shouldn't be possible. :)

The KoS and Thirster on the other hand would have to cost conciderably more with 4++ save. The whole point is that 4++ save is really alot better compared to 5++ than statistics will tell you. In the individual circumstance 4+ is something you can "rely" on, 5+ is just something that comes true if you're lucky.

If you pick an LoC and three Horror blocks I think you should be able to annihilate Everything with magic - I mean, you should have a chance of annihilating Everything. In 7th Ed DoC Tzeentch had the pure dice supremacy to sometimes pull that off (with bolt of change) but I played a couple of games like that and lost most of them because if you weren't very very lucky with the dice you got steamrolled.

In 8th the magic phase has just changed. That's why, or maybe because of, those super nuke spells in the BrB lores. You don't have the flexibility to play with the power dice to the same extent, not even if you've got enough Power Vortexes to have 12 dice every phase. So if you go "mono-tzeentch" I actually think it's very appropriate to have one spell that has the impact of Dwellers or Purple Sun but hits everything equally hard (i.e. no focus on hurting low Initiative or Strength or what not) sort of like the 13th Spell for Skaven, safe for the fact that this is Tzeentch we're talking about so magic should come a little easier so a fairly low casting value wouldn't be wrong either.

The main problem here is that when you throw this thinking into a Mixed list you quickly end up with really nasty synergies that might just break the entire Book. I imagine that is your main concern Kitsune. Thanks for keeping a leveled perspective.

Screamers cost effective? Yeah I know what you mean but that "cost effectiveness" is theorethical if it just takes one phase a minor shooting to remove them. And even the dream scenario where they maximize their slashing-kills I've never seen them do any "real" difference. "Oh you slashed 5 guys from 60-strong steadfast block.. Good for you, they almost took their points back those flying fish.."

I just got a brain-storm sort of idea for Lore Attribute of Tzeentch:

- Kinda like the Death Lore.. Power Dice generation associated with successfull castings. That would re-intitute Tzeentch magic right there. Fixed!! Let's say:

For every successfull casting the caster adds D3 Power Dice to the Pool.

Even Dwarves would fear Tzeentch Daemon Magic in This fashion.
:evil:

What about making the Firestorm S D6+1? I think that D6 is too low (as you have a full 1/3 chance of needing 6's to wound Orcs and Chaos Warriors) but D6+2 is too strong (even on a 1 you're wounding humans and elves on a 4+, and a 1/2 chance to wound Orcs and Warriors on a 2+). Probably up the casting value and keep the range low (12" for the basic version sounds right).

As for a Lore Attribute, how about something that reflects the sheer insanity and terror of Tzeentch? Maybe force a panic test on any unit that takes casualties regardless of the number, and give them a penalty (-1 or -2) if they would normally have to take one? Or any unit that takes casualties suffers from Stupidity in their next turn? Probably not the best suggestions as is, but I feel like an attempt to make a fluffy Lore Attribute would be the way to go.

Edit: I like the concept of power dice generation, but Death already has it, and the redundancy would be boring. Plus an extra D3 off of each spell would be really quite powerful.

S 3 vomit seems all right they are all giving up a str posin 4 attack.

As for the ward save they are expensive, LOS is not that hard to draw even when there fast after all movement phase is before magic or shooting.

I guess i just see it as a way to make them more fun. right now the more competitive list don't rally run them. like you said it dose not make a difference on the GUO, LOC maybe cause he is so bad at CC other two it might be hard to make an argument for. Maybe add it on to demonic robes and make it cost 50.

lets see for Tzeentch lore attribute.

1.caster with the lore of tzeench Channel on a 4+
2.+1 to cast ( and maybe disspell ) for each spell cast before it this turn.
3. free d6 str d6 magic missile shoots ( now free with every spell !!!!!) 6-12 range or in spell range ( 6 in if spell has no range)

d6+1 Strength for Firestorm might be just right.

12" range on the lower value, and why not two more level's like with greater range. I personally find that "not crazy".

Good ideas for Lore Attributes. There certainly is a redundancy about generating Power Dice, even though it would be done in a different way and offer a completely different sort of tactical thinking.

I do like the 4+ to channel except for the fact that channelings don't break the power dice cap of 12 and that's really the cap that Tzeentch Daemon Magic should be given a pass around as far as I am concerned. I seriously think it should be the Tzeentch signature - one way or the other - that Tzeentch simply know how to harness the winds of magic in a more effeicient way compared to the others.

The question is only what to Give without breaking the entire list. D3 Power Dice per casting is prolly too strong, yes. On the other hand channelling on 4+ given my above reasoning is too weak.

Perhaps the Lore Attribute of Tzeentch should just simply be:
"Ignore the Dice cap, period."

I know this, again, becomes questionable and has wierd implications unless you play mono-Tzeentch. Still, something in this direction... maybe..

About greater Daemons I am not sure whether they have become less interesting in 8th due to their "actual" composition being bad, or whether it's just a question of internal balance in the DoC book itself shifting toward stuff like 600 point units of Bloodletters.

That being said, I agree that all Lord Choices and especially the godawful Daemon Prince should be made more fluffy and fun.

Bloodthirster - I maintain that it should have "re-roll hits" automatically, and in that case like I said 500 points vanilla.

GoU - Same thing as with the Thirster but now we're talking Trappings-gift. Regen should be a Nurgle-attribute. Every Nurgle unit should have it. Or at least Locus.

LoC - 4++ Save I think seems only natural. After that I still concider it a reasonable question whether or not 450 is still too much points - at least so long as the the Tzeentch Lore isn't buffed conciderably.

KoS - Like the Thirster perhaps raise the price just a little. Some sort of protective gear wouldn't be in wrong in the Gift-section. Maybe tailer some of the existing gifts as well.. SoulEater for example.. Really worth all your points? I for one would like to be able to take SoulEater and Siren Song.

Then again, hehe, if anything Siren Song should prolly be a 50-point item.

Daemon Prince - Basically I am even-steven between Kitsune's "way" of re-writing the prince and my initial idea about making it The Lord Choice that can be tailored to Fit into any army list - a cheap Lord that you can squeeze into a 2k battle, or a mega-lord for that occassional 10k battle.

Either way, the most important thing here is that the respective Marks are currently too flat. There should be clear attributes/stat-changes for choosing to khornate etc.

Cheers.

How about GD having a biger ward save from shooting only? in CC they would have 5+ as now but in shooting~3+ or 4+, because now its to easy too kil them in shooting.

That's a great idea actually.

It focuses on "the problem" without breaking what already works, so to speak.

The only problem is the differentiation that somehow doesn't ring as very "gw-like".

But yeah, like I said, my initial reaction to this idea is that it focuses on the problem while leaving the rest alone.

Very clever! :)

Ah, there is some good stuff written in here again, so lets start about magic again. I think firestorms improved version like this: against T3 (which afterall majority of models has) strenght 1 = bad luck and few casualities, 2 = almost same effect as final transmutation, 3 = Same as dwellers but with horrors popping up, 4 = flamestorm effect from lore of fire, 5+ = hell breaks loose and majority of models die in the unit. So even with roll of 2 against T3 models the spell can actually be quite ok and in addition it summons horrors. D6+1 would be ok if it was only a destruction spell, but it is a summoning spell at the same time and still with some luck on you side you can get some insanely devastating results when rolling 6, almost everyone dead and you get lots of horrors.

You really thought up some good lore attributes. I thought that "add one dice per succesful casting" too, but discarded it right away. There is afterall a spell that already creates more dice, so if you start with it you will pretty much be able to cast whole lore even with bad winds of magic....with all your Tzeentch wizards.

Panic test lore attribute is intresting idea, but with 2-4 wizards that can create more dice spamming that skill it would become too good. Just imagine panic test to every unit on a single phase, statistically that means fleeing with atleast one unit and they possibly took only minor casualities. Stupidity is nice too, but suffers bit from the same concept that I just mentioned and it kind of steals Slaanesh signature spell and attach it to every Tzeentch spell.

I think Deviant Cadaver has good idea with 4+ channel. It has some potential, but can also be abused by taking lots of Tzeentch heralds and horror blocks of 10 (like in 7th edition). On mixed lists it could be working though. Idea with +1 to cast with succesfull casting sounds better and it is bit like fire lore. I would copy lore of fires attribute a bit and change the lore attribute to something like this:

If a spell has been cast at a unit that already been hit by other offensive (other than gift of chaos and glean magic) spell from this lore you can add cumulative +1 to the casting total. This cumulative bonus cannot exceed wizards magic level.
This way you could get lots of casting bonuses with every Tzeentch unit bombing one single target and even make horrors viable in large numbers. Wizard level cap is there to prevent abusing of level 2 LoCs that could spam their whole lore and get massive bonuses. If you get something like 3 spells through (maximum number of spells that give this bonus with one wizard), bonus would be massive +6 for a level 4 mage, but with all dispelling that is pretty unlikely. You could continue casting at the same target with other wizard then and make the bonus even greater. Gift of chaos does not get the effect, as you could target all nearby units with it and then get bonuses to anyone you want. Glean magic could do the same thing by copying spells like pendulum and screaming skull etc.


But back to the troops. Screamers slashing attack is the most cost effective thing in the daemons book and their lousy endurance is only thing that makes them bad. Avarage of 5 kills from 6 models is nothing to laugh about though. If there is 3 units they deal 15 kills, maybe even on several units. I really would not care if units are 60 big, if I get 45 of them killed by just flying over them I would be quite satisfied. This is ofcourse very hard to accomplish, but proves that screamers only need some durability buff to be worthy.

Yeah, perhaps the vomit attack is good at S3 on Plaguebearers. They afterall lose all advantages of other benefits they might have. Balancing factor might be that if they do the vomit attack they do it with ASL, which is not bad with their I1, but would prevent haxing some ASF vomits or other silly stuff =)


And then the great daemons ward thingy. I am with the same track with Deviant Cadaver. 4++ ward could be given by already excisting items. GuO would be good daemon to start and one could just make trappings give 3+ regeneration and nothing else at the same points cost. OR drop the price to 35pts and give same benefit. Item is still bit on the 7th edition where you could get armor, reg and ward from it but now it only gives 4+ save and +1 to ward.

Daemonic robes for could get that +1 ward against shooting effect instead of "harder to wound" effect. It would actually make the item viable as it would also give slight protection against smaller shooting, but same protection against cannons and such mathemathically. As it is I have never seen anyone use it on competitive environment. On thirsters you could get this +1ward against shooting with obsidian armor or just leave him as he is now, which I would support fully. He has 3+ armor afterall.

The reason why I would instead add 4++ ward on items instead of static points of the daemons is simple, it prevents them from becoming too strong. By taking robes on KoS you could not get spirit swallower, but if the daemon would cost, say 500pts, it could still pick the swallower and be the ultimate points denial with 4++ ward and wound recovery. It makes daemons more custom instead of just granting them more durability and then giving more gifts to get more power.

About siren song being 50pts, I totally agree. With both KoS and heralds it would only make them more balanced. Siren song has some insane potential at the moment and costs far too little.

And now that we start having these great ideas, what would you say if I started gathering them up for our new "army book idea". We could even send it to GW and think that hopefully they pick some of our ideas =)

That was the whole intent behind why I started this thread so YES!!

Let's keep this up over the coming weeks and hammer something out.

Tzeentch Firestorm.

So... D6 Strength..

What about the Horror/3 wounds.

with "Plaguewind" there's parity between caused and gained wounds. One Nurgling Base per 3 wounds.

Let me put it like this: If you got a Horror for Every wound caused then I'd be fine with just D6 Strength. If we're gonna stick to 3 wounds/Horror I'd opt for at least the D6+1 Strength version.

Lore Attribute:

You don't comment on my idea:

"Daemon Tzeentch wizards ignore the power dice cap".

Simple, to the point, Tzeentch magic strength re-instated, mono-tzeentch viability re-instated.. Doesn't seem too broken either, I mean seriously how many Power Vortexes are you gonna have? - 10? Ok, have fun casting Flickering Fire 20 times every magic phase..

I mean concider it, if you will.. It would be unique, fluffy, and pretty much re-balance things in one sweeping go..

The idea about a cumulative plus on casting for bombing the same unit is a good angle as well. The thing is, and this is just my personal impression from 8th Ed, all these +1, +2, +4 back and forth are really over-rated. You wanna get a spell off you use "enough dice" to statistically do it, you want to draw out the enemy's dispel pool you use "just enough" dice. Of course, if you got +4 on the roll you can theorethically use one less dice, but the random range of your actual roll is far greater than the impact of the magic level.

Just my impression. Alot of people talk about magic levels like they really, really, matter and to me it's much more important What spells you actually have at your disposal.

Same thing with casting values, now that I am on the subject. I couldn't care less if a spell is 8+ or 12+ (for example) if I really want the spell to go off I'll use 4-5 dice regardless.

So aside of this suggestion for Lore Attribute being a bit complex (I mean the all spells except Gift of Chaos etc) I just don't personally see the big benefit. Sort of like some Lore attributes from the BrB - +1 to cast against Cav and Warbeasts.. whoho! who cares? <_<

Screamers

Yeah we keep agreeing here over and over again. Toughness 4, another wound to the profile, increased kill-capability with the Slashing attack, make them 10 points cheaper.. It all ends in the same conclusion: Something's needed.

PleagePuke

They're giving up a S4 Poison Attack for that S3 Hit. Is it supposed to ignore armour like troll-vomit does (I seem to remember that it does)? Always Strikes Last well maybe, do you really think it's necessary? Make a S4 ASL vomit attack in that case.. hehe

Gifts

We need to work through the whole list of Gifts really. Off the top of my head there's a few that really stand out:
Siren Song - 50 points
Staff of Change - 25 points (if even that..)
Daemonic Robes - Need a re-write like you guys have been talking about. It could be +1 to Wardsave, or something like "Model can never be wounded on better than 5+" - that would make it viable, at least for Heralds.
Etherblade and Many Armed Monstrosity - I think both are too expensive personally.
Dark Insanity - 50 points is a nice and even number.
Trappings of Nurgle - Like you say, needs a re-write because it's all 7th Ed:ish.

Well, these need to be worked through thouroughly.

FIRESTORM

You get pretty ehthusiastic about the firestorm. Just imagine level 2 Tzeenthc herald castin that spell on random horde of 50 and getting S5 or 6. That would deal 40 kills on avarage. It is already VERY powerful, but if it would add one horror per kill, you would get 40 horrors too, a level 4 mage that could easily do the same thing again and have huge static bonuses, steadfast and all!

That is why one horror per 3 kills is fair enough, as it gives you some horrors but does not make the whole spell broken super summoning spell. I wanted the spell to have similar effect like chaos warriors Tzeentch lores gateway, for most of the time it kills only few models like 2-6 or something, but it has possibility of destroying the entire unit. In game terms and statistics S1-3 is pretty much like bad result from gateway and 6 is "kill whole unit". You seem to forget the tactical advantage of summoning horrors too. If you get something like 10 horrors behind the enemy unit, they march block and on next turn they can rear charge for +3 bonus and if there is enough models they will negate all ranks. And in top of that they can channel magic dice and cast spells. That is powerful, no doupt. Plaguewind itself is broken at the moment and it should have line like "nurgling swarm will appear for every three wounds caused with maximum number of wizard level bases". It is already very powerful mass destruction and nurgling effect just makes it too good.


LORE ATTRIBUTE

Sorry that I forgot about your idea. It is far from overpowered, it actually is underpowered in my opinion. In 2400pts game maximum number of heralds with vortex is 4 and that means spending 25% of hero points on non optimal choises. Even with channels and vortexes you wont get enough dice to make use to it. Other thing is that if you get that lore attrtibute it gets bit unbalanced with some other lores. Do they get to get over this limit aswell? How about some combos like getting 20 power dice after purple sun sweeping through whole ogre / orc army?

+1 lore attributes might sound bad at first, but they are powerful. You pay 30pts or more for similar magic items and in general it is like adding power levels to your wizard for free. Lore of beast attribute is bad as it only reduces casting cost, but +1 to the value also means that its harder to dispel, meaning that even low number of horrors or level 2 herald could compete against level 4 mages. I suppose you have not tried fire lore much, as the lore attribute that gives D3 power is actually quite good. This (+1 attribute) would also give some chances of LoC leading magic spells with +6 to cast gift; he would start casting with making dice for himself and cast 1-2 dice spells like flicker fire and bolt of tzeentch and then 40 horrors with banner of sorcery would follow up with +7 to cast (if loc got both spells through) and last herald could make spell with +4-7 bonuses. This would atleast make items like power vortex good choise when compared to MoS and spell breaker. You could really base your army around magic, or just keep some horrors and make spells hard to dispel.


TROOPS

Vomit on plaguebearers is simply a "weapon choise" against weak units. 30 automatic hits with S3 deal statistically more damage than 30 S4 hits. It allows saves as normal, as otherwise it would become way too powerful. 30 S3 automatic hits means 15 wounds on T3 troops after all and 22,5 with seeping decay. For 2pts per model it would be good way to get rid of steadfast units and weak unarmored foes like marauders.


GIFTS

I would say, keep staff of change as it is, but instead change it to work on "each succesful hit" like orcs and goblins wand does. LoC has 5 attacks and with Ws6 he hits most lords on 4+. Opponent could roll normal ward save to the instant kill so that it would not be too powerful (with 2-3 hits per round it is likely to kill character on one round). With 50pts it would make LoCs power against characters in par with other greaters, be threatening but not too powerful.

Daemonic robe that would prevent wounding on 5+ would be way too powerful for heralds as Slaanesh heralds have T3. +1ward against shooting would be more fitting in my opinion, if less powerful for heralds. Dropping +2A and ignore saves to 40pts would be fitting as they would be something more like rulebook items then.

Dark insanity on the other hand has cost of 55pts for reason. It prevents you for having it and other good 25pts gifts. Thirster with 7 attacks is already dangerous foe with his stomps and all, but giving him spell breaker and immortal fury in top of that would be quite insane.

You make a convincing point about Firestorm. I guess it's just happened to me too many times that I've rolled a bunch of 1's when casting Bolt of Change, Flickering, and Firestorm.. I've just gotten weary of how what should be a napalm bomb of irrerisistable can turn out to be a picket lighter thrown across the field..

And about the 1 Horror per 3 wounds.. Don't forget that you need to actually HAVE the models for them to be turned. hehe

Still, ok fine I concede that the Main problem with Firestorm currently is that the number of hits isn't relative to the unit-size. As long as "every model" in the unit is hit the spell can remain pretty much the same as far as I am concerned.

Plaguewind is a typical nuke spell isn't it? I mean.. I wouldn't call it more broken than Purple Sun. If I compare the two I'd rather have those 20 Power Dice compared to a couple of Nurgling bases. But bottom line is they're both situational, aimed a specific weakness (toughness, initiative) and the only thing that makes Firestorm different is the universiality that I really think it ought to have (being Tzeentch and all).

"How about some combos like getting 20 power dice after purple sun sweeping through whole ogre / orc army?"

Well if you ignore the Power the Dice cap then I guess you just ignore the cap.

Glad to see I finally managed to have an idea that isn't broken. ;) My thinking was the it would re-instate "mono-tzeentch" viability because with a mono-tzeentch army chances are pretty high you'll hit the 12-dice cap (ok maybe not in a 2k game but as soon as you reach 3 or 4k it's another story with all those channellings). On the other hand, if you play with a mixed list featuring maybe only one Tzeentch herald then the Attribute would just be a lucky freak bonus on rare occassion (or, of course, any time you fire off the Purple Sun into an Ogre army and don't end the phase on the miscast roll).

After reading harder into your thinking about the cumulative +'s to casting I like that idea too. It wouldn't help knucklehead players like me much I'm afraid, but I am sure other people would be able to work it like you say.. haha

TROOPS

The Strength 3 vomit is a great idea! I just thought you were being "too careful" again with the ASL-talk. Come on, let people have their fun when they manage to cast stuff like Birona's or whatever..

GIFTS

Staff of Change - Wow man "Strength test or die" for every hit would actually be pretty tempting to have on your basic Herald too (not as tempting as on the LoC of course but still).

Daemonic Robes - +1 to WardSave or "never wounded on less than 5+" seems just as powerfull to me. Probably isn't if you crunch the numbers, I know, but still.. I have no problem with your alternative.

Dark Insanity - Yes it's obvious Why it's priced to 55 points instead of 50. Those five points is the reason I've never used that Gift on a thirster. It just too steep. If we're not gonna give the Thirster any other buff compared to now I think This would be a very minor thing indeed. Then again, I might underestimate it since I've never used it.

"giving him spell breaker and immortal fury in top of that would be quite insane."

So what? He's got a dispel scroll instead of the Armour of Khorne that he can have currently. I really don't see the problem. Dark Insanity is a gamble-item either way.

Finally.

Initially you layed out your thoughts on how Daemonic troops could be upgraded, as an alternative to my "new units"-approach. That was all good, save for one thing that I want to finnish off with:

When it comes to Bloodletters you gave them the possibility of upgrading to armour that granted 5+ Save.

I just want to say I really think it should be 3+. Armour of Khorne. Period. Of course this would have to cost a couple of more points. Naturally!! It would make Bloodletters really, really expensive - like a "Chosen"-choice if comparing to the WoC book.

5+ is just so easily negated. A mono-khorne list ought to have the ability to build something that isn't a glasshammer. You wouldn't be able to build large hordes with expensive troops like my 3+ AS Bloodletters, and hey if you did you'd end up with serious "all eggs in one basket" dilemmas.

I just feel it's something missing from the list. It's existence wouldn't be broken by definition I'm sure you'd be pretty quick about pinpointing a fair cost for it.

No offense.. I mean.. The rest of the stuff you said about these upgrades seemed alot more thought through than my own ideas.. The only thing I can't get my mind around is that armour-choice for Bloodletters.

Half way through painting those 80 bad boys by the way.. They've already sucked down 2 Baal Red Washes hehe..

Cheers!

Well in that case, i guess GW will be more than glad to toss in such a spell :D

SPELLS

Plaguewind is very powerful spell even against T4 as it kills 1/3 of the whole unit and half of it from T3. Comparing its casting cost for other mass destructions it just is too cheap even without nurgling effect, but nurglings is what makes it absolutely great spell. You can nuke one unit, summon some nurglings behind the lines and attack warmachines with them or get +3 combat resolution, or summon huge pile of nurglings infront of the unit to stall it. That is why I would limit number of nurglings to wizard level and raise the casting cost. Comparing it to purple sun isnt quite fair as purple sun can kill your own wizard, has random movement and template that does not neccessarely hit every model in the unit.


GIFTS

For a Tzeentch herald staff of change at 50pts would be quite fair as they only have 2 attacks. I would like to play test it on LoC though, as it seems bit nasty like that. Daemonic robes 5+ to wound vs 1+ ward is huge difference if you calculate it mathematically. Imagine S5 hitting your Slaanesh herald, he would be penaltizied from 2+ to 5+. Now that I think it, with dark insanity perhaps more dangerous combo would be dark insanity with obsidian armour, if it was only 50pts item.


TROOPS

I refrain from "letting people have their fun" with whatever combos they might get for balance. If we get some things that are way too good then other armies will get them too, and that will lead bigger inbalances with each army book. And for that reason I would give the gift some penalties.

For Khorne daemons the 5+ armor I decided purely to give more protection against Low Strenght hits like arrows and melee. I highly dislike idea of making letters some sort of "space marines" that are perfect on everything. S3 and 4 are the most common strenghts that you are going to see in the game anyway and against S3 armor 5+ reduces number of wounds by 1/3.

About bloodletters durability in overall, 5+ ward translates roughly for T4 against S3 attacks and gets better if opponents S is higher. So daemons already are more tough than basic humans and as ward is not negated by strenght like armour it is quite solid protection. In numbers this would translate as follows:
30 Ws 3 S3 hits against letters: 5 wounds
30 Ws 3 S3 hits against T4 no ward: 5 wounds

30 Ws 3 S4 hits against letters: 6,67 wounds
30 Ws 3 S4 hits against T4 no ward: 7,5 wounds

30 Ws 3 S5 hits against letters: 8,33 wounds
30 Ws 3 S5 hits against T4 no ward: 10 wounds

As you can see, ward already provides better protection than T and with high Ws of 5, almost every opponent will hit letters on 4+ and some weaker ones hit on 5+. I will now display hits with the 5+ armor on. Hits will land on 4+ so you could simulate missile fire in here aswell:
30 Ws 3 S3 hits against letters: 3,33 wounds
30 Ws 3 S4 hits against letters: 5,56 wounds
30 Ws 3 S5 hits against letters: 8,33 wounds, no use to have armour

It is notable that Bloodletters already have very high offensive statistics so giving them too high defense would make them easily too powerful. Giving 4+ save would be tempting, but that would in my opinion be too much. One can ofcourse say that chaos warriors have that armor and even better offensive stats, but then again chaos warriors are way too cheap and they should cost roughly 17-18pts to be in par with basic empire troops, daemons and O&G considering the points effectivenes.

Edit: Good one Runidis, that made me snicker =)

Daemonic Icons

I have two basic standpoints here:

1 - They're supposed to be "Magic Standards" now. Ok fine, so no duplicates, then I want at least twice as many to choose from.

2 - Their pricing should vary more, and thus the range of points you can spend on standards ought to be greater.

So..

Daemonic Core should be able to choose between Icons costing up to 50 points.
Special and Rare choose up to 100 points worth of Icons.

First some brainstorming on the current standards:

The "may always march"-flag for Khorne is worth 10 points now. Marchblocking just isn't what it used to be, as we all know.

The "Charge d6 extra" might be a little underpriced on the other hand.

The "re-roll failed wounds" (Nurgle) - underpriced?

Poison wounds double CR - overpriced?

Plus 1 to casting (Tzeentch) - Underpriced? Rhethorical question. Of course it's too cheap. But it should be: It's Tzeentch.

3d6 Power level 3 s3 hits in CC - hm... it's the whole "bound spell" catastrophy again..

Siren Standard - underpriced? should it be? It's sort of Slaanesque..

Stubborn for first breaktest - I think it's Ok where it's at.

BattleStandards

Banner of Hellfire stands out here.. I think it just needs a re-write 'cause it's just not good. I mean you would hardly want it if it was default for BsB and came without extra cost.. The whole bit about power level for bound spells meaning the reverse thing in terms of casting in 8th just makes it.. suck.

Great Icon of Despair - underpriced in 8th, definately a bargain right now. Question is: Should it remain so? With the general fear/terror nerfing we've seen in this Edition I think we should be left with something.. no?

The Stubborn within 12" flag - I think dropping it back to 100 points even would reflect the fact that it's still good but not as sweet as it was in 7th.

Just writing off the top of my head now, don't have the book infront of me, so I will leave it at this.. There are other Bsb's like the "plus d3 to CR" that I have always found totally redundant and never used...

New Icons?

Kitsune made Frenzy an "upgrade" choice for Khorne otherwise I would have made that a new Icon.

A PermaHatred icon would be a nice Khorne flag too - if 50 points is too little it would become something that only Bloodcrushers could pick (given the framework of my thinking) but still pretty fitting, I think.

A Stubborn-Icon effecting only the unit maybe..

A Cheap Icon increasing Magic Resistance.

An Icon costing twice as much as the "Endless War" one, that adds a D6 to EVERY charge move.

Let's look at Nurgle..

The Icon of Pestilent Shroud - Enemies are at -1 ToHit (Shooting and CC).

The Icon of Metamorphosis - For each 3 Poison attack wound a Nurgling base is created. :rock:

Icon of Perpetual Plague - For each Poison Attack wound the unit regains one wound.

Let's look at Slaanesh:

A fairly cheap ASF-icon seems pretty obvious, for starters.

Icon of Vanity - Enemy failing fear-test autoflees.

Let's look at Tzeentch:

Vortex Icon - All channelattempts within 12" succeed on 4+.

Another Icon that works just like a Power Vortex.


Ok all of this is pretty scetchy.. But if we're gonna put together a comprehensive "new book" we need to look at every aspect.

Your integrity is impressive Kitsune.

However.. Army-book creep is a "law of nature" with GW releases. Soon the new OnG book will come out and from the rumours I've seen I gather that they will pretty much just make Everything better and cost less. Of course, you might say the OnG of all armies can take alot of boosting without breaking the game but still, I think if we're seriously gonna put something together that GW would concider seriously (like they'll concider Anything seriously) we might as well leave room for some creep in there.

About the "new DoC" book I am 100% certain of two things:

1 - It's gonna be a good many YEARS before they make a new DoC book.

2 - When that book is released DoC will climb right back up to the top of the pile as far as "tiers" and all that crap goes.

I hope you get me here. I mean: If it was up to me I would put You in charge of GW-balancing.

The reason I don't care all that much for balance is that it has never existed and will never exist in this game. It just seems futile, even though it's of course very respectable at the same time.

Ok I am double-posting here so I'll cut myself short this time..

Thank you for your compliments. If this is going to be sent to GW, I would like it to be well thought and written post instead of having overblown ideas that favour daemons as later one is easily discarded as "oh yeah its one of those posts again". If everything is well rationalized and explained it can be used easier to make new rules and book and is less likely going to be skipped over. GW could do whatever with the new book, they could keep its power level same while upgrading all the other books (like with beastmen) or downgrade its power back to daemonic legions (where anything could just dissapear with puff of smoke).


FLAGS

I am fine with having only one flag of each per army, but agree that there should be more flags then like you suggested.

Khorne flag that prevents march blocking is quite viable for some setups where you might deploy your khorne unit far from general and bsb. Ld 7 will fail Ld tests on 50% chance after all. Dropping flags price to 15pts would be fair in my opinion. I like 15, as it is roughly the price of our ideal bloodletter so you should either pick flag or one extra letter. Chargeflag really is not that bad in my opinion as you can only have one. Perhaps 30pts or 35pts instead of 25 would be more fitting, but I have never had my opponent complaining about it being too overpowered as it is now.


Banner of seeping decay with nurgle is a tough call. In my opinion price is fair, as with 30 models foes it increases the kills roughly by ~2. In mathemathic terms it is almost as having +1 S, but does not affect armor, magic or other things. I consider it as a "weapon that gives +1S" to each model with 1pts or similar. As unit sizes have went up, maybe rising it to 30 points would be good, as you usually get 30+ models when going in horde. Poison flag is not overpriced but it is very situational. It only works against lowly armoured foes (6+) and not much against anything else. With this flag you could go into deep ranks and have poison deal the combat resolution. For example with 11 attacks (champion included) you will likely get 1,87 poisons, which is 1-2 more combat resolution. For 30 attacks that is 5 poisoned attacks = 5 more combat res. And if we count Epidemus in this (who is underpriced) we get very good flag actually.


+1 to cast flag should be underprized? You really seem to like Tzeentch =) Other armies pay roughly 30-40 points for +1 to cast, so the flag could cast something like 20-25 points to be fair. As horrors pay 12pts to get the flag in first hand and can be reduced easily in magic levels. 3D6 flag really suffers for the bound spell thing, I agree. It could be changed to 15pts flag that strikes 3D6 S3 hits once per game, or something similar like some flags that deal 2D6 S3 hits in the beginning of your magic phase.


I think Siren flag is quite ok as it is. It is a good flag, but if your opponent relies purely on gunline and has no melee units to back them up, he deserves it. It is just balanced to have counters on certain types of armies, and daemonettes only have T3 after all. Same goes with stubborn flag, it is quite ok.


Banner of Hellfire is awful. Making it deal D6 S6 hits in each unit in melee in every magic round would be more fair considering its points cost. After all it makes its bearer with 2 wounds cost almost 300 points with all gifts.

Great Icon of Despair is fine too on its own but only becomes unfair if combined with masque in my opinion. It is expensive and does not affect many armies/troops and is almost essential for Slaanesh army that relies lot on Ld spells and its effects on protection.

The Stubborn flag would be fine with 100pts as you suggested.


NEW ICONS


A Perma Hatred icon could be Khorne only bsb icon that costs 25pts. Permanent hatred for the unit that herald with this flag leads. I do not like idea of giving hatred flag to letters without herald, as it would only be way to get hatred cheaper than by getting herald.

Daemons already got two stubborn flags, so making more of them would not be wise in my opinion.

A Cheap Icon increasing Magic Resistance sounds good and very khorne too. MR2 flag should not be way too cheap, something like 35pts since it provides 3++ save after all with wards.

An Icon costing twice as much as the "Endless War" one, that adds a D6 to EVERY charge move sounds good too. 50pts to increase every charge moves distance is not that bad.



The Icon of Pestilent Shroud - Enemies are at -1 ToHit (Shooting and CC). If they already got similar effect for unit upgrade, this gets too tough.

The Icon of Metamorphosis - For each 3 Poison attack wound a Nurgling base is created. Wow, way too good and way too many synergies with other magic spells. This gives some other ideas though, like Nurgles rot item that costs 50pts that turns models it kills into a plaguebearers. Available only to heralds of nurgle. Plaguebearers are after all victims of Nurgles Rot

Icon of Perpetual Plague - For each Poison Attack wound the unit regains one wound. And combined with some rerolls to hit with magic this would be quite insane again.



Cheap ASF-icon has same problems as the Khorne one. Who would pick herald if you could get cheap ASF icon?

Icon of Vanity - Enemy failing fear-test autoflees. Nooohoo way. This would bring it all back to 7th edition madnes where Ld bombing could annihilate even toughest of units with ease. Something like: enemy who fails fear tests gets -1 to Ld if he loses combat, would be more fitting.



Vortex Icon - All channelattempts within 12" succeed on 4+. As an bsb standard that costs 125 points this could be ok. After all you could easily have Tzeentch army with 6 wizards (including horrors) within 12" and that would create you avarage of 3 more dice for dispelling and casting in each phase.

Another Icon that works just like a Power Vortex. Yeah, its good idea but it should have higher cost than power vortex as you do not need character for it. 40 or 50 I would say. If the power dice would be only for Horrors then it could be 25pts.

Daemonic Icons

Just wanted to brainstorm a little. :D

The "PermaHatred/ASF" Icons that you dislike because they circumvent Heralds.

The use I saw for such an Icon would be for smaller flanking units where you might pay "half" the points-worth of a Herald to get the "locus"-effect but foregoing the actual herald.

Tighing the PermaHatred to actually having a Herald is a good idea, but I was thinking unit-flags rather than BsB's with these suggestions.

Like: ok, maybe not channel on 4+ within 12".. how about 5+.. better?

It's not that I like I Tzeentch in particular it's just that I am trying to think like GW.. :)

"Every third poison attack wound" is not gonna be all that crazy.. Or at least I really didn't think so yesterday. If you had a flag that gave back wounds to the units like I suggested you'd give back some of the resiliance PB's lost from 7th Ed. It wouldn't be for free either, of course. And the other one would spawn a Nurgling base now and then if you were fighting in Horde formation - but Nurglings are skirmishers after all (do you mean synergies with Plaguewind and Nurgling Infestation? I think synergies are cool haha but if you say it'd break the game I'll take your word for it).

Siren Standard, and Icon of Endless War are the two Daemonic Icons that my friends sometimes have been grumpy about. Icon of Sorcery they concider "discounted for reasons of fluff" kinda like I hinted myself - it's obviously "too cheap" for any other army But Tzeentch. Again, I'm sorry Kitsune I'm beginning to gather you're sort of allergic to that sort of thinking.. :D

- Changing Banner of Hellfire and the Tzeentch 3D6 S3 Hits Icon to being fully "automatic" would of course fix them.

- Great Icon of Despair and Sundering are (again) two Icons that my friends have been whining a little bit about for some reason. The Despair-one, I guess, because some armies are just not used to failing ld-checks, and the Sundering one because the way it's written is "soo 7th Ed" with how you get miscasts for double 1's-3' when those kinds of miscasts doesn't exist anymore..

Special Characters I am just ignoring because I'm at this juncture I am very "anti-GW" mentality in Not Liking SC's whether they are good, bad, balanced, fluffy, ugly or whatever. As far as I am concerned there shouldn't be a single "character" or unit in ANY army book that you can't tailor yourself with Gifts/items and so forth.

Especially in the case of Daemons I actually blame the unholy Three (you know which ones) for playing a dominant role in giving DoC a bad rep throughout 7th Ed. As far as I am concerned it wasn't "autobreaks", ITP or anything like that - it was the "approved" tactic of getting characters costing about half of what they should cost to the (in my mind) fairly small games that tourneys are based on.

Skulltaker and Masque in a 2k list is bad comp.

Skulltaker and Masque in a 4k game (where I like to be!) would probably get "lost in the haze" in another way - not that I have ever playtested that theory because my group is ultra-strict about ignoring EVERYTHING from SC's right down to named champs (so I have never used the Changeling or Karanak either - even though I am "allowed" to use Karanak if I'd really want to.. which I've never done).

In my opening post I mentioned Furies and how I think they could do well with some sort of buff..

- I'd like to see them counting toward Core requirement. As far as I can see you still wouldn't make an "all fury" army what with them being Skirmishers and all.

- Their Ld too.. If you lose combat by 1 they auto-disappear. I think that's a little step for 12/model.

Minor things:

Bloodchariot/Seeker Chariot/Burning Chariot - Regardless of whether an option would exist for havig them as Rares or Specials I would like to see them being better, and more costly of course. Basically, for all three chariots add one point to S and T and slap on the "equivalent" increase in points.

The Burning Chariot - I don't think this one in particular should be anything but "Herald equipment" (i.e. no Stand alone Rare Chariot) but there are other fixes:
It doesn't say explicitly that it has Flaming Attacks, 4++ Ward seems only fitting, and some special rule that allows it really fly (20"). This coupled with better S and T would of course make it like twice as expensive, and while I am not sure it'd be a "better choice" I just feel it'd be more fun to play it something that really feels like a Burning Chariot.

It's like GW threw in these chariots knowing that "Ha! We'll never ever make models for them anyway, who cares just spell the Title-heading correctly and never bother with the rest".

Laters!

ICONS

You might want to use permanent hatred flags on smaller units but competitive player that would want to minmax whole list sure would not. I for example would slam it on my biggest letter box and put herald in a smaller group so it could go after regenerating monsters and my big perma hatred could munch all rank and files. Another reason why I dislike this idea a bit is because it makes letters so similar to daemonettes, both have their rerolls to hit then.

Tzeentch Bsb flag that makes channels work on 5+ could be better as with 6 channelers it would give you roughly 2 dice in each round. It still would be worth 75pts in my opinion as it gives both offensive and defensive buff to the army, though it would not work that well in mixed list. You can compare it to power vortexes that also work when dispelling. One power vortex costs 30pts and if flag gives 2 power dice and 2 dispel dice, it is quite good even with 75pts. Skaven for example have an item that channels dice with 5+ for one model and it costs 20pts with some added effects and in basic rulebook channeling item costs 15pts.

Oh, and instead of "thinking like GW" I prefer thinking math and overall synergies and balance of the game. I love fluff too, but I do not want fluff rule over balance and this seems to be what GW is doing much. I see the reasoning behind it and why they keep doing it, but for competitive play it is bad news.

Nurgle banners I consider broken because they have such an huge impact in horde formations. Flag that regains models back with every poisoned attack would likely return 5 Plaguebearers back in every round if opponent has only 6+ armor or none. That is 60pts back per round and 120pts if you count opponents turn too. It will easily become too great. Nurgling effect is fluffy and I like it, but again in the game terms it allows to create 1-2 bases in the units flank and with that you can gain easy +2 static resolution + nurglings attack and extra 70pts worth of models. Something like Nurgling infestation might work better. 50pts flag that adds nurglings for every 3 poisoned wounds you get to nearby nurgling base. This way you would be forced to have nurglings nearby and it would not provide free static resolution in every combat round.

Could you tell more why your opponents think that Icon of endless war and siren standard are bad? What kind of armies they play and such, as I have not heard bad things about those flags, not even on tournaments. Endles war can be good with extra D6 to roll, but it only works once so I would not think it being too good.

Despair icon is in my opinion very daemonlike and should remain in the list as it is now. It works well with fear and helps breaking steadfasts that can be a problem to daemons. Even at cheapest it costs 190pts to bring this flag and it has limited range of 12" and herald can be killed easily if opponent so desires. Not so bad. Sundering flag still makes opponent make the miscast roll on a double 1-3, so it still works as intended.


CHARACTERS

I am not fond of special characters either and overall I have seen only couple of people who think that they are ok. Hatred against those "game breaking characters" run deep and I remember that even when we started the game long time ago in the early 90's we outright decided to ban special characters as they were just too unfair. This does not mean however that special characters would not deserve some balancing. If they all were balanced and not some cheaper über versions of other hero choises they could be a nice addition. Also not thinking of them when balancing the book would be unfair to those people who like to use them as it would make their game broken. But I would leave balancing special characters to the very end where rest of the book is fixed and finished as otherwise they could get some unintended benefits from flags and stuff for example. This might be the problem why GW always makes them unbalanced, they make them in the beginning with all the characters and then move on to the units.


TROOPS

Furies in my opinion are good as they are. I would definately NOT make them fill the core requirements as that way one could easily make flying circus army that just flies around the opponent and nukes it to dust without opponent being able to do anything. It has been possible eariler and still some armies can pull stuff like that quite easily. Even daemons can make something like that and it is not fun army to play against. Ld 2 can be hars, but they are 12pts flying fear causing unit that with general nearby can rear charge and hold an opponent easily down for only 60pts, that is good as it is.

Chariots, hmm. 4++ ward on flying chariot of Tzeentch would be nice indeed and not all that bad either, considering its low T and offensive stats. Boosting strenght however is not suggested, as it would make chariots bit too good in combi charges. Just imagine 4 D6 impact hits that wound almost everything on 2+ and add crew and mount attacks and you get what I am thinking. It gets too reliable way of destroying elite blocks. Scythed wheels would be good idea though, atleast for Khorne. Some extra abilities like with core daemons could also be introduced to make chariots have some other ways to use them too. For example Tzeentch chariots furies could make their slashing attacks as normal, so it could do something else instead of charging. You could pay 35pts to make the rider a flamer for example and similar things.

As for special charters it be nice to see some sort of balancing aspect. in 40K when fatewaever take a wound if he fails a leadership test he flees into the warp.

I think the Khorne GD has eternal frenzy. Just something to make it risk and reward not what it is now where they are either way under or way overpriced.

Also a special KOS would be nice.

I think the stat-lines of all the chariots would be good as is. Give the Khorne Chariot a pair of Bloodletters as crew and Scythed Wheels, Slaanesh gets a pair of Daemonettes. Tzeentch Chariot should have Flaming attacks, possibly a 4++, and Screamers should definitely get Slashing Attacks. I really like the idea of a Flamer as the rider, but that chariot would have to cost a lot of points. T4 and 4 wounds isn't a lot, but with Slashing attacks and Flamer shooting it would be deadly outside of close combat (2,4, or more S5 hits and D6 S4 shots each turn) and with the Flamer's 2 S5 attacks it would still be pretty nasty in combat (and a crazy good warmachine or fast cav hunter as it is fast and maneuverable). Actually, I LOVE the idea of being able to take that chariot. I just wonder how many points it would cost? Maybe 165?

How would you feel about choices to make a herald a lord slot for low point games?

That or what are the options for daemon princes?

Id say make the mark free or make it have some boost. Let them take 100 pts in gifts and maybe lower the base cost just a tiny bit.

it might be interesting to have devotion levels so you have the option for cheap lords but could scale up a bit.
lvl1
nurge +1 t -1to hit ? ?
Khorne +2 atts hatred ? +2 atts
Tzeench +1 to cast 4+ ward ? ?
sleenesh +1 I asf ? ?

lvl2

nurge -1to hit
Khorne hatred
Tzeench 4+ ward
sleenesh asf


lvl3

nurge ?
Khorne ?
Tzeench ?
sleenesh ?

lvl4

nurge
Khorne +2 attacks
Tzeench
sleenesh



Have to come up with higher lvl stuff and points but what you think?