For those who still think Obama is somehow going to be different than Bush...

~~~ARTICLE~~~

Paul Joseph Watson
Wednesday, February 4, 2009

The Obama administration has been caught in a fresh torture controversy after it emerged that America threatened to cease all intelligence ties with Britain if it revealed that a British suspect held at Guantanamo Bay had been tortured into confessing to being part of a dirty bomb plot.

“Two senior British judges have expressed their anger and surprise that President Barack Obama’s Government has put pressure on Britain to suppress evidence of torture in US custody,” reports the London Times.

“Lord Justice Thomas and Mr Justice Lloyd Jones said they had been told that America had threatened to stop co-operating with Britain on intelligence matters if evidence were published suggesting that Binyam Mohammed, a British resident held at the US prison camp at Guantánamo Bay, had been tortured into confessing crimes.”

In their ruling, the judges, acting on behalf of the Foreign Office & Commonwealth Office, scorned the hypocrisy behind the Obama administration’s actions.

“We did not consider that a democracy governed by the rule of law would expect a court in another democracy to suppress a summary of the evidence contained in reports by its own officials . . . relevant to allegations of torture and cruel, inhumane, or degrading treatment, politically embarrassing though it might be,” they stated.

“We had no reason . . . to anticipate there would be made a threat of the gravity of the kind made by the United States Government that it would reconsider its intelligence-sharing relationship, when all the considerations in relation to open justice pointed to us providing a limited but important summary of the reports.”

Binyam Mohammed has been held at Guantanamo Bay since September 2004 after being kidnapped at the behest of U.S. authorities in Pakistan in 2002. He claims he was tortured and mistreated into confessing to being part of a dirty bomb plot. Reports written by U.S. intelligence officials apparently confirm Mohammed’s claims.

The British judges declined to publish the reports after America’s threat, but lambasted America for bullying Britain to conceal information that posed no threat to America’s national security.

“Championing the rule of law, not suppressing it, is the cornerstone of a democracy,” said the ruling.

“The suppression of reports of wrongdoing by officials (in circumstances which cannot in any way affect national security) would be inimical to the rule of law and the proper functioning of a democracy.”

The controversy follows the revelation that Obama, despite his superficial moves against torture which have been given much attention by the establishment media, has in fact signed an executive order that will ensure a continuance of the practice of “rendition,” the secret capture, transportation, and imprisonment of so called “enemy combatants” in countries renowned for carrying out torture.

Secret rendition “black sites” hit the headlines in late 2005 when U.S. and foreign intelligence officials blew the whistle on the CIA’s practice of hiding and interrogating “al Qaeda” captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe.

The secret facility was revealed to be part of a covert CIA prison system, set up after 9/11, that at various times included sites in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several democracies in Eastern Europe, as well as a small center at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba. The Washington Post refused to name the European countries involved after pressure from senior U.S. officials.

Horror stories of brutality and psychological torture of detainees at the secret prisons emerged soon after.

Many on the political left were fast and loose with their praise for Obama after he made moves to shut down Guantanamo Bay, but the real torture black sites and the process by which suspects are kidnapped and taken to them will remain in place thanks to Obama’s executive order.

~~~END ARTICLE~~~

May I ask for sources other then Prison planet at some point in the future...

Why do whenever I look up for any information about anything in your post I only end up finding it on prison planet and other similar website.

There must be some information about this in some British journal. Anything really.

After reading the various articles and having good knowledge of how the media spins things...

This sounds like The Obama Administration is asking that this information be withheld from the public.. So it is brought up correctly in his trial.. Which BTW is essential for a fair unbias trial... Read the News. A good idea of our local politics is the Brianna Denison Murder Trial... They caught a guy.. His case hasnt even ended yet and since the day he was arrested the Media has branded him a Murderer.. What happened to Innocent until Proven guilty? I really doubt that he isnt the murderer the evidence that the public has seen is pretty much sealed his fate.. But still he should be considered Innocent until he is PROVEN guilty. The public shouldnt have even known about the evidence or the guy being arrested. What happens if he is not-guilty and is allowed to continue his Life... His name is not Stigma. he wont be able to work anywhere, people will shun him.. Pretty sad really.. I feel sorry for the Guy if he is innocent. Take the following example too.

How would you feel if someone murdered your mother.. and lets say they catch the person.. then in prison he was beatup by a guard for some reason.. (maybe resisting instruction or striking him?)
The info about this guy being maltreated is spread across the media and its getting spinned that he was unwarrantly assaulted, because nobody cares about a prisoner getting beat up if he struck the guard or was trying to escape... Now comes selecting the jury.. No matter where they pull the Jurors from, the media spinned idea of an Innocent prisoner getting beat up for no reason is for most in the Jury's mind.. The defense attorney will turn that story even more in the media before the trial.. and use it to get his client a plea bargain. Now the person who murdered your Mother is going to a Prison for 10 years with parole in 5.. Instead of 25 to Life. All because of the media taking information that shouldnt have been released and spinning it to make a better story.

Really, As far as I am conserned the whole Gitmo thing is crap. In the Case of US citizens.. if they committed a hostile act against the US. they should have been tried in Military court when they were captured and if proved to be commiting those acts executed for Commiting Treason during time of War... Yes its legal.. and has been done before. The others should have been sent to be tried in their own countries.. In countries that wouldnt agree to try them then they should be held as enemy combatants until such time as the conflict in question has ended.

The Bush Administration was Correct in their holding these people.. they pose a threat to the lives of Citizens of the U.S. and were captured as Enemy Combatants in a conflict that has yet to end.

They However were wrong in how they conducted the incarseration.. It should have been simple Solitary Confinement.. No Interagations. Just 3 squares a day and an hour outside each day. End of story.

The maltreatment if it has occured in the manner the media potrays it is again wrong.. they are still people... They may be terrorists... But think of it this way. What were the US Founding Fathers called by the British during the Revolution.... And by treating them in an unhuman manner.. what does that really say about our cause?

This Spoonfeeding dribble that is posted is just that.. For people who like being spoonfed information without thinking about the issues.

I will say this I hate the Islamic Terrorist BS.. I think that they have taken a religion that Holds ALL life sacred and with more examples of that than the Bible or the Torah and twisted it for the few exerpts that could be used to fit their own agendas.... But the people who take everything they read in the media.. expecially like the stuff that this post is about are no better than the mindless people commiting heinous acts of terror in the name of a Religion that denounces those acts.

This is off topic.. this is my opinion.. Its simply statement of that opinion.. no part whatsoever was intended to offend, single out, or subjugate anyother opinion.

Honestly, Obama is no Bush... Never will be.. I am glad to see that he is picking some good cabinet advisers with lots of foreign policy experience. Im also glad that he is holding the same stance on terror for the most part as Bush.. For all Bush's failings, all his Mistakes, and all his invented words (hispanically Speaking????WTF) He did do one thing right... Not a single Terrorist Attack has been committed to furition since 9-11-2001. So maybe he didnt do all that bad after all?? :blink:

@ mormeguil, you apparently didn't look at the links. This was reported in the london times. Prison Planet cites EVERYTHING. I included their source links for a reason.

The trial is over. All court records are public information. To supress them is a clandestine act of attempting to hide your misconduct.

You're also forgetting that most of Guantanimo's prisoners were picked up in city sweeps where innocent civilians are randomly picked up off the streets. This is one of the main reasons for controversy over being deprived fair trials. The fact that there are innocent civilian family men behind bars who've been removed from their family for being out past some military imposed curfew or in the wrong place at the wrong time.. removed from their country while their family starves. There have been investigative reporters who've found these families and shown how civilians were illegally arrested and put behind bars indefinitely without a right to trial.

You're also forgetting the US military officer who was asked to pose as a prisoner for a training drill at Guantanimo. He was asked to pretend to be an uncooperating prisoner who refuses to get out of bed. The gaurds in training didn't know he wasn't a real prisoner. He was beaten so badly that he now has brain damage. This is just one of the many examples of abuse and inhumane treatment of prisoners at Gitmo.

Wrong, there were the anthrax attacks which came directly from a US government military compound... supposedly orchestrated by 1 deranged man... who supposedly committed "suicide" in the hospital via tylenol overdose before he could be tried and interrogated.

There was the 7/7 bombing of london, which just happend to happen on the EXACT same day, at the EXACT same time, at the EXACT same places, in the EXACT same way, that a government-run terror excercise drill was planned. What are the chances of that?

There have been hundreds of terror acts committed overseas, that were directly inspired and provoked by this so-called "war on terror". Then there are also the supposed US terror plots that are "thwarted", which have been proven to be half-retarded numbskulls who are coerced and convinced by an FBI informant to commit a completely nonsense and impossible terror plan. So we literally have our own government, putting together/staging terror attacks. Also don't forget Mumbai.

Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean they aren't happening.

Ok, On the trial... Its not over... The evidence of the maltreatment is paramount in not only HIS case but in the Case of the Guards and other workers of the Base.. Their cases are not yet arraigned... He isnt the only one at that base. As far as being picked up.. it wasnt random.. and if you think so keep reading your swill.. They in some way made themselves, by their actions into Illegal Enemy Combatants which the Geneva Convention allows arrest of and detaining until the conflict is over. Thats whats allowed. The people may not have been a terrorist.. but officially if Someone is to throw a rock at a soldier in a warzone, they are no longer a civilian.. they have made themselves a combatant. Im not saying that everyone of them is some crazed dude with an agenda.. I just saying that they shouldnt have been doing what they were captured for doing.. People who are arrested for capital crimes are known for staying in jail for more than 2 years before trials.. what is so different here. If they are found innocent.. they should be compensated for their incarseration or be allowed to file suit for wrongful imprisonment.

As far as my comment.. Is should be common sense that Bush couldnt stop terror attacks on British Soil.. he holds no authority there. I didnt think I had to notate "US" in the statement.. On the Anthrax.. Source?? I can only find headlines of False Anthrax other than the original attack which happen before 9/11.. Even so.. We haven't had another goddamn plane run in to any buildings or any losses of life "on US soil" even remotely like we did on 9/11?

I was in the millitary until a week ago when I got my final discharge complete. I was active in the systems of reporting an investigating terror.. I never saw a terrorist face to face, but I can tell you with good certainty that Al Qeada has attempted to attack the US twice since.. neither have been a success.. They are stronger now then they were then.. But now the World knows their tactics and their job is alot harder. Im not saying the government is right in its attempting to have evidence kept out of the public eye.. I just giving a Real World example of why they most likely are.

I highly doubt that every guard at Gitmo is guilty of maltreatment of prisoners.. but if all the information leaks the ones who are innocent have next to NO chance of getting that verdict. Is that fair just so you can read your juicy story?

I think that the government should be transparent.. but I really think that the Justice department has a responsibility to the rest of the people who may stand accused to make sure that evidence is properly handled in these cases... If people have problems with how things are going.. they should make it know and start public outcry, not write and sell article to a newspaper. And if they are unwilling try to effect change or put up with it.. they should leave. Its pretty simple to me. I was born in a Nation that told you what you couldn't say, where you couldnt go, what you would do for you career. All for the betterment on Mother Russia and their People!! I live in a nation now that lets you say what you want. with very minor repercussions.. Lets just say the Writer of the above article would have either has a slug in his head or cutting down tree in Siberia for 40 years for saying something like that about the Soviets if he were in Russia 30 years ago. I can choose my career, and if I want can freely drive across the nation. But am I free.. No. Im not under that false illusion as many in the US are.

The attacks on british soil happened after this so-called war on terror began. If this war on terror was the right defensive approach, then why do terrorist groups now have the best recruiting mechanism and way to kill americans (on the terrorist's own soil) they could've ever hoped for.

The anthrax attacks happend AFTER 9/11... read your history a little better. They most certainly were not fake.

Where in the world do you get this idea that 2 actual Al Queda attack attempts on the US have been thwarted? Please give me some kind of source for that. Because I have heard of absolutely NONE, other than absolutely absurd cases where an informant working for the US gov implanted the IDEA, inspiration, motive, drive to commit an attack into some half retarded group of underprivileged immigrants who could never have actually committed the attack in their wildest dreams. That whole JFK airport pipeline idea? Completely physically impossible (as was reported by engineers/employees/representatives of the pipeline itself), much less within the supposed "terrorists" resources to even TRY! There is no proof anywhere that these completely cooked up for show, "thwarted attempts", had anything to do with Al Queda. Or are you toting the whole "all terrorists are Al Queda" line?

Servius, your idea that the US military has imprisoned the people held at Guantanimo solely for seeing them commit an act of violence, war, or terrorism against the US or even anyone at all, is clearly not true.

I know it would be wonderful if we could trust that our government has our interests at heart and wouldn't do something bleeped up unless it was absolutely neccessary. But that is rarely, if ever, the case. Our founding fathers knew that, and setup our country to be the most critical of all of their own government, thus keeping it in constant check. Unfortunately, we've allowed ourselves to be manipulated and dumbed down to the point where we are barely doing anything to keep it in check, and we are disrespected and ignored by our government. We only have ourselves to blame, as the warnings and lessons have been in tact since the birth of our nation.

.nick

Woohoo! Revolution ahoy! :lol:

Ok. Che. On the Al Quada Attempts Neither were on US soil they also were never publicly acknowledged. Both involved operations by Al Qaida in Iraq and planned attacks of the Iraqi Government. While you may disagree with the point that we havent been attack. I disagree. The ORIGINAL Anthrax Scare happened long before 9/11.. I remember as I was in High School at the time. I see your source where there has been Anthrax after 9/11 with proven validity.. sorry.. I was incorrect. At least I can admit that kind of thing. I have a different defination of terror... If sending someone a white powder in the mail is terror... then really most any crime could be considered terror.. Some yahoo sending a package with powdered sugar to a senator isnt terror to me.. Even if the Sugar is anthrax. Thats murder. Some yahoo comindeering a plane of innocents and crashing it into a building full of more innocents who were just there going home or at work.... Thats terror. We have differing definations of terrorism is all.

On the Fact of Gitmo: The US has the Right as a Sovereign Nation under the Geneva Convention to arrest and detain Enemy Combatants or other persons who have shown reasonable intent to commit acts of violence against said nation's property or citizens. That part of the rules of war.

On the fact of people being innocent and being held.. Im sure its completely possible.. People who are US citizens are in Jail to day for crimes they didnt commit.. Im well sure of that.. Im also sure that a few of the people who were detained in Gitmo and have been released were commiting acts against the U.S. or another Sovereign Nation. Just as people in the U.S. commit crimes and go to trial and get aquitted of their charges. The Justice System isnt perfect.

As Far as the reasons Gitmo exists.. its valid. How it has been Administered? Almost assuredly NOT. Many of your sources point out one flaw in your whole Anti-Government Retort. The fact that the detainees were given to the U.S. by other nations or represenatives of other nations for "witnessed" acts against them or other nations. I say Witnessed as is the fact that I could Say I say you shoot a road sign to the police.. which in my area is a felony (go figure). The police would then investigate the sign and arrest you for it. Does that mean you did it? No. But how else are they supposed to go about figuring out who shot that sign! LOL.. Its called False Positives. They happen alot in the justice system. How many times have you read about people being put in prison by eyewitness testimony...only to be aquitted years later due to new evidence or use of new technologies to investigate the current evidence.. What did that person see then?? Waldo?

One of the problems I see with the above false positives is the fact that the DoD gives unconditional rewards to people who bring in terrorists. If I lived in Iraq.. I could go pick up a truck load of day laborers telling them they were going to clean a building and take them to the Green Zone and "turn them in" for witnessed terrorist activities. and I get a check.. This happens quite often. Almost all of them are released on the spot.

If you also read more into the Gitmo detainees.. the Uighurs mentioned above in preticular are criminals... In china. But not in the U.S. It looks like the Chinese simply pawned them off to the DoD getting rid of them. Its the DoD fault for just accepting them with open arms and putting them there.

As far as the accusations of torture. Most of what has been called "Torture" these days we perfectly acceptable tactics to glean information from prisoners.. most of the cases were not beaten. They were put on Bread and Water diets and put in long solitary confinement. Waterboarding etc.. We arent talking Nazi style.. Live skinning of the arms, removal of eyes, burning of the pallet, etc. Torture is a very general term these days. Personally, I don't consider being giving the bare minimum diet and put in a dark room torture. Waterboarding.. its a fine line.. I dont think its a good way to get valid information.. sooner or later people will just admit to what ever the person says.

I disagree with your point of the Government ignoring the people.. If they were why is Obama trying to get a Stimulus passed. If he was ignoring us he would be trying to use that money to expand government. I agree with your unsaid point of "If the Founding Fathers were here today they would be upset with the government" The electorial college in preticular would piss them off greatly. as its basically the Lord and Serf system.. only the Serfs vote for the Lord. I think they would be angry with the size of the government. The constitution was designed to lay alot of the governing power with state and local governments. The federal government was pretty much there to levy taxes for the treasury to pay for the military and officials wages the remainder of which was split based on population to each state. This is what happens to this day.. the only problem is that the Federal end has gotten so large and widespread in its control of civic and state governments that most of that money stays in the federal system.

Alot of your points Che I agree with. I just think that alot of your reasoning behind those points it too lead by what your read in the Media. What you dont seem to see is that the Media isnt there to provide you the honest news.. they are there to make money. If that means taking a story and ommiting some of the details to make it a more controvercial story.. They do it.. My wife is a Social Worker at a local hospital. Recently, A women was shot in a convence store. she was seriously injured. the clerk was knocked into a wall and went in to a coma. The store had no camera and there was no witness to the shooting.. only a person on the street who heard the shot and saw the shooter leave. The News made the women out to be some sort of "Hero" in that she charged the robber and got shot in the process.. Well the Clerk woke up 5 days later. and while watching the news started crying.. My wife was there and asked why she was... It seems that the Women and the shooter were together and that the clerk was fighting with the women over the till. the shooter took a shot and hit the women. he then shoved the clerk into a wall causing a tv to fall on her head. The Media flat made up a story to tell the public. with no evidence to support it only to find out the opposite was true. The reported was suspended and the news agency had to place a retraction. The Media does tell the truth alot of the time.. Just not the whole truth or a twisted truth... All for the sake of the mighty dollar. I think alot of what you hear in the media has to be taken with a grain of salt. while there are points of good info.. there is just as much bad info.

As far as trusting the government.. LOL We as citizens are not supposed to trust our government.. The Constitution and many of the memours of the founding fathers imply that the government is flawed and that the citizens are the oversight.

I agree that many people are complacent. And simply accept what they are told.. Some accept the Government Line as truth, Some accept the Anti-Government Line as truth.. Both are complaciant. Its when you take the time to give your own thought to the information and act in accordance with your conclusions that you can effect change..

Che.. You seem to have some major problems with the way the US government is run.. Which is cool.. Its the right of being a Citizen of the US... My question to you is this.. Becides posting your thoughts on a warhammer messageboard which grabs less that 1% of the US population as viewers, what are you doing to change the way the government is ran? Or is this it? Personally, I have am wanting to run for public office but more to change local government not federal. Nevada has enough problems without the federal government getting involved.

Ending my rant.. You seem to think that with all your sources that it makes you right and me wrong.. You can think that.. But sources are rather...well.. Useless and they are multifaceted things showing many different opinions, views, versions of events, etc. I can find sources that "prove" The US has made contact with Aliens as well as sources that "prove" the opposite. Quoting Newspapers and Media Outlets to me... Doesn't prove jack. I have less confidence in the Media than you do in the US Government.

I value your opinion. I hope you can value mine.. Really we see eye to eye on this in alot of ways.. though I think my opinions are far more moderate.

Back on topic.. You still have yet to "debunk" my example as to WHY the Obama administration would want that information held from the public.