Hi,

yesterday i've tought about the GDs in the new book and as far as we all know they are the only LvL3(4) wizards in the book.
DP can only pay (tzeentch as well) for one additional powerlevel and after that they are at most a lvl 2 wiz'.

Our heralds are not able to reach lvl 2 !, except tzeentchian heralds who are allways at lvl2.


Back to the question: Are we forced to use a GD if we want to have a good magic phase?


If we wont play a GDs in a >2k army, the only chance to have a good magic phase we have, is to play 3 or 4 heralds of tzeentch (10 powerdices). All of the other heralds are a lvl 1 wiz' only and you cant bye them a spellbreaker.


I dont like that, because GD are all the way to strong to play them in a friendly game.

It certainly seems like it in some respects. At least if they gave Slaanesh and Nurgle Heralds the ability to be Lv2's and Daemon Princes up to Lv4 it would give people a choice of what to use. So it does seem like there pushing everyone in a particular direction. Kinda disappointing when you think of it that way.

Azel

Not at all. I use a Nurgle Herald, Slaanesh Herald and Khorne Herald and it works fine!

Hey

If you want to use Slaneshi or Nurgle Magic, then a GD is necesary, but with Tzeentch it ain't that way.

The Heralds are very good casters, especially with the Vortex/Sorcery combo and 1 or two Horror Blocks with Banner of Change give you the necesary PD.

My current List's magic division are two Heralds of Tzeentch, with Vortex and Sorcery plus one Block of 30 Horrors with banner of Change , that's 11 PD (with 4 of them Pool)
+ 1 Bound Spell.
DD are 6 wich is enough most of the Time.


Greetings Billingsly

hmmm... tricky question... I'll answer in the light of problems I always encountered with...

I always had problems with large monsters in SoC slaanesh list.

At the last two tournaments I fineshed 9-th cause of it. Otherwise I'd be in top5. I swore to take GDaemon now, cause Keeper will shread dragons into peaces.

But now there is a new option.
With mix, you can always take some khorne for high strength and tzeentch for PD.

So basicaly all that you can have with GD (high strength and magic) you can replace with either khorne or tzeentch.

Dragon, yeah, come baby and play with bloodcrushers. M7+D6 charge banner... 2 of them can bring dragon down in two rounds.

I think you could have a pretty effective magic phase still with a bunch of heralds, the 1st spell for nurgle and slaanesh are both very good.

Honestly though... who would want to play without a GD?

jk, I know not everyone loves the Bloodthirster as much as I do.

I plan on mixing it up with KoS, GuO and my favorite FW Thirster though.

I don't know where that "they're too strong to be used in friendly games" comes from. Does "friendly game" mean your boys hold hands with the opponent's boys and try not to be too scary?

:P

I for one would have no problem with running a GD, knowing that my opponent will have a lord choice in his army. As a Daemon Prince is not worth taking compared to any of the GDs. And as good as the heralds are they are just not equal to a lord choice of any of the armies.

I will still be using Dp's. When all is said and done most people who used DP's didn't max out on magic and items anyway. I know I rarely gave higher than level 2 as I'd sooner use the points for more troops. I know that GD's have gotten cheaper but just be aware that they are still a big point sink when they are blown away. But most of this debate depends on your play style,

Later
Mark

I run a BT 99% of the time. And now he got WAAAAAY better. He used to be the center of my army, with crushers as supports. Now the BT is the support to my blocks of horrors and PBs. It makes the list sooo much better when you aren't relying on a frenzy large target flier to win you combats and take enemies down. Now I use him to destroy enemy support units, flying units, monsters I might not want to fight against with my units, and steam tanks.

Power Vortex is 30 points, Sorcery is 25, so can cant have both on a single Herald.

That was discussed earlier

and seemed unclear, so i will use it (untill the book is out at least ;) )
and then look it up.

But yes in rumour Thread iit is marked as 30 Pts. thats right.

Greetings Billingsly

I have seen the book many times, Power Vortex is 30 points. :)

There is no such thing as too strong for a friendly game, that's when you're supposed to use the biggest nastiest stuff you got, that's what makes for a fun game.

I look forward to facing my friends 2000 nurgle with my 2000 khorne, that'll be two greater daemons in a big clashing battle, awesome! :)

I don't think we're forced to at all. The only Lord choice I see never being used is the Prince due to his recent nerfing. I will be using three Nurgle Heralds and where as my magic phase won't be offensively strong, it'll hold back the worse of magic. Tzeentch will be the only one with strong offensive magic all the time - its their main strength. The only thing stopping me taking a GD in 2k is the points cost.

I can still see some hope in princes actually. They can be pretty hard hitting and fast to boot. However, the cost is far too much for what you get, and the place of fast monster/character that cannot join units and can cast spells is already taken.
So, I have actually changed my position after thinking about it, though I will still use one in 3000+ points...

Less points and the ability to be level 3 mages would have certainly made them a whole lot better.

That's where you use skull taker on a jugger and killing blow papa!

That is pure evil, Al!

unless he has balesword and noxious vapors, you should be able to run up, challange, and killing blow him pretty easily, maybe even get him twice so he's forced to take 2 5+ wards.

Actually...that's quite brutal Al..not that I'd expect anything less from you ;)


If you think about it...Skulltaker can annihilate a GUO fairly easily.


He charges in...(easy with 14-inch charge on Jugger). He has WS-9 ! So he hits Papa on 3+ ....he then has STR-6 so causes "normal wounds" on a 4+ ...but since he's got that lovely Skulls for the Skull Throne ! - power...any 5's or 6's mean instant death, even for the 10-wound behemoth that is a GUO. B)

His Jugger also has 2 STR-5 attacks, of course, and with Hatred on for both of them, you should be getting 4-5 hits no matter what you roll with the Killing Blow's.


Papa is screwed here because he's WS-4. He can only hit Skulltaker on a 5+ ! And when he does hit, though he can wound him pretty solidly with STR-8 (Flail) (Default gear)...but amazingly, due to his mounted 0+ Armor Save, Skulltaker STILL would get a 5+ Armor Save, AND his 5+ Ward Save to prevent any wounds.

Papa is denied any Armor or Regen saves (so no Trappings help for you Papa !) from the Killing Blow's ...and all he has to do, as Al noted, is fail a 5+ Ward Save even once...and he's gone !


Let all bow before the Slayer of Kings ! May the blessings of the Blood God ever flow on the mightiest of Khorne's Champions....U'zuhl, The Skulltaker ! :evil:

Theoryhammer is great fun! Now try running that combat with the Skulltaker and his Jugger always striking last and having a WS1 S1 T1 I1 A1 stat-line.

Always Striking Last he couldn't do anything about...but consensus here seems to be that Magic Resistance can be taken against the effects of Miasma of Pestilence since it is a "spell affecting them (him)" - per the rulebook entry on Magic Resistance.

Thus, Skulltaker has MR(2)....so that, alone...is going to be enough to stop the 3+ casting roll for Miasma...unless the Nurgle player throws a lot into it ...and even then...the Khorne player could use both his Dispel Dice, plus the 2 freebies from Skulltaker's MR(2) to likely stop it.

Even with STR-8 for the Papa's Flail, he still needs 5+ to hit, 2+ to Wound, and then Skulltaker gets a 5+ Armor (modified from 0+) and 5+ Ward to stop any potential wounds the Papa has caused with his 4-attacks in total.


I still like Skulltaker's chances to emerge alive (with at least 1-wound left) to deliver his potential Killing strikes.

A S1 model can not wound a T6 model according to the BRB, so does that mean that Skulltaker cant KB a GUO while under the influence of that spell?

An interesting question !

Looking at Killing Blow, all it says is "If a model with the killing blow special rule rolls a 6 when rolling to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent. No armor saves or regeneration saves are allowed against this wound, though ward saves can be taken as normal." - pg. 95, Big Red Rulebook


This would suggest (literal reading of the rule) that you don't actually have to be able to wound a target "literally" to get Killing Blow to take effect (unless this has been FAQ'd by GW elsewhere that I'm not aware of ?). You simply have to roll the 6.

In U'zuhl's case, he only has to roll a 5 OR a 6 thanks to his "Skulls for the Skull Throne!" ability.


So I would say, even at STR-1, if he rolls a 5 or 6, Papa Nurgle's in trouble.

Miasma is cast on the GUO, so no MR for the Skulltaker. S1 vs T6 means the Skulltaker doesn't even get to roll.

Better luck next time.

Err...all due respect, I think your interpretation is wrong on both counts.


Firstly, Miasma of Pestilence never says "this is cast on the Daemon itself". All it says is "all models in contact with the Daemon have their ...etc. etc. reduced to 1".

Some people (not necessarily myself, mind you) are already arguing that that is CLEARLY a spell that is "affecting" the models in base-to-base contact with the Daemon using the spell.

As they are being AFFECTED by the spell...they are arguing Magic Resistance WOULD apply.

They are saying MR would apply for this...for a Fireball...for The Beast Cowers...but not for something like Raise Dead (doesn't affect them) or The Bear's Anger (cast on an enemy character for instance), etc.


I am not saying they are right...just that they have at least a decent position from which to argue since the Rulebook only says that Magic Resistance comes into play when a spell "AFFECTS" the unit with the Magic Resistance, and I can't see how one could argue that Miasma is NOT "affecting" them.

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Second point....where does it say that STR-1 VS. TOUGH-6 means a model "does not even get to roll" ? I don't see that anywhere in my Rulebook.

All it says is that if you see an "N" in the table for STR VS. TOUGHNESS - that it means "the target is too tough to be hurt" . . .


However...it doesn't say that you cannot or don't get to pick up and throw your dice anyways...just that under normal circumstances, nothing you rolled would have any chance of causing a normal Wound to the target. HOWEVER...Skulltaker's ability is clearly not normal, and Killing Blow simply says "if you roll a 6" ... etc.

Thus, you could argue that it's the same for Skulltaker, except he needs only roll a 5 or a 6, even with his STR reduced to 1 ?


If anyone has seen a FAQ on this, I'd be interested in hearing about it !

Another important thing to keep in mind is that the GUO can cast only in his turn, but as Skulltaker on "daemonic steroids" (FC you hit the nail on the head :lol: ) is faster as the GUO and will therefore charge him, he will never be able to cast the spell...

Like I said, the only probable solution for the GUO to win that combat is if he uses noxious vapors and balesword. And there isn't really a great chance of that happening, with only hitting maybe twice(since he need's 5s) against a 5+ armor and ward.

FC: you're right about the always being able to killing blow stuff. Poison works the same way, If I did that spell on PBs, they can still autowound me with poison.

Does Miasma of Pestilence not last until the casters' next magic phase? I believe it does.

If we're doing the Theoryhammer thing, then would the GUO not have Miasma in play every turn if the Skulltaker were on the other side of the table? I should think so. Perhaps MR would kick in once the Skulltaker engaged the GUO (no book to check the exact wording of the spell), but to do so he'd have to survive the first round of combat (at reduced stats). With so much at stake, the GUO would be foolish not to throw 5 dice at Miasma at the next opportunity. Even if the spell fails, the Skulltaker has to survive another round of GUO attacks.

As for Killing Blow, a model with S1 has no chance of wounding, so there is no roll made. Poison is a different kettle of fish because the wound is determined by the to hit roll and so completely circumvents the need to roll for wounding.

Hmm there's nothing saying that you cast that spell on enemy model... But fluff part says thats something coming from the caster so I think that Qrab is right.

In the small RB it says that you roll to wound first, then you compare strenght and toughness (P. 29), so KB is working even if skulltaker has S1!

I agree, with KB it's possible to wound on 6s (or 5+ in this case) just as it's possible for poison to wound even if they're weak.

I suppose the fluff would be that he locates the one soft spot to hit and kills him right out...

"Go For The Eyes Boo, Go For The Eyes!"

I have to agree with Qrab as well, it seems like an ability that allows the caster to effect enemy units, and is therefore a way of indirectly affecting them, in the same way spells like flaming sword of rhuin affect the enemy via the model they are cast on.

Please tell me, where does it actually say that no roll can be made?
I can see an analogy made with rolling to hit. Say you need a 10+ (a six followed by a six). There is a very low chance of you actually hitting, and though there is still a chance, I don't see how the way poison would affect this is any different to a killing blow on something that cannot be wounded. If you do roll a six, you will auto wound, overiding the extra six needed to wound. If you roll a KB, it overides the non ability to wound due to low strength.

Look at the roll to wound chart. Compare S1 to T5 or higher. There is an "N" where there should be a number. "The target is too tough to be hurt. N stands for 'No effect'."

When the matrix result is an "N" you don't even get the opportunity to roll.

Thats not true, on P. 29 it says roll first, compare S and T second! Thats the way its done and you can therefore inflict KB even if you could not harm him otherwise at all.

Non sequitur.
The fact that it is impossible to wound a model does not mean that you cannot roll to wound them, or that any other abilities cannot come into effect.

To follow from my earlier point, what would happen if you rolled to hit with a poisoned attack, against something that cannot be hit?
And don't bring up undead ethereal models, since they cannot be effected by any attack, whether poisoned or not. It says that they cannot be effected by any non-magical attacks, hence you do not get to roll to hit at all if you don't have magical attacks.
The case we are arguing over is different. There is nothing saying that you cannot roll to wound, just something saying that you cannot possibly wound conventionally, so that still leaves models able to killing blow things that they cannot wound normally.

Right - well said ERrorght - Your name is crazy-long and complicated :P


But you make a good point, which is what I was trying to say. Qrab was presuming that no roll CAN be made / attempted - which is NOT what the book says. The book merely tells us that (under NORMAL circumstances) rolling to wound would be pointless since you cannot (NORMALLY) harm the target.

BUT...if you have something like Killing Blow - then there IS a point/reason to try to roll...because getting that "6" "Activates" the Killing Blow special rule...and thus you could (potentially) take out the target with it.

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However, I'm leaning towards agreeing with Qrab that Miasma would not be something you could use Magic Resistance against - but just be prepared for opponents to try and argue that point when you play them - that's all I was saying.


And...Qrab....thanks to you for even mentioning Miasma in the first place, in this thread, as it got me thinking :evil: (And when Fulgrim thinks...it's usually bad news for Daemon-Opponents everywhere !) - and planted the seed that grew into the thread over in the Nurgle Sub-Forum - which I just finished up ! Go take a look - I showered you with praises B)

Back on topic: Do we need a GD to get an effective magic phase?

In a Slaanesh army, you take a KoS and make it Lvl4 (that's 570 points without the gifts), two Heralds (around 125-135 each) and you WANT to take the Masque at 90 points. So that's 910 points spent on characters and you WANT to make a Herald the BSB with the -2 Ld banner so that's a total 1010 (withtout gifts and mounts) for 8 casting dice and 6 dispell dice...

Maybe you'd consider taking a Prince instead of a KoS to reduce the point cost, but then you lose two levels of magic...

@ Sadistic Master - Heralds of Slaanesh are 90pts, Lvl 1 costs 50pts, so they're 140pts without gifts/BSB/etc.

And in reply to your overall question - yes (for Slaanesh and Nurgle, not so much Tz).