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Title: "D" Force Of the Hellenic Army
Description: Rapid Reaction Forces


Lord - April 12, 2006 08:22 AM (GMT)
Quick Resume...
The first Units a future enemy will confront especially at the Aegean will be the D force...Untis from the B Corps (Which is the Rapid Reaction Force)
After Imia...
The Chief of Command in the Hellenic Headquartes lack of units under hes direct command...
So they created a small very fast force (mainly professional units) which concludes the following forces
Called in Greek DESAA (Stands for Diakladiko Epichirisiako Strageio Amesis Antidrasis)

- Z MAK (Profesiional Amphibious Rangers Batallion)
- ETA (Special Deep Reconaisence/Raider Parachute Unit)
- 575 Marine Batallion
- 2 Frigates
- 2 LSD (Samos Class) and all the ZUBR units
- Scuadron of the HAF (Moira Mahitikon PA)
Firs Test manouvers were the "delphin 05" which went very impressive...
Though some minor problems have to be solved...my personal opinion is that this move is very good

The Title of the Articel /analysis is "How ready are we for a future ciris in the Aegean"...

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Lord - April 12, 2006 08:28 AM (GMT)
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Taken form Amyntika Themata Magazine (April 2006)

Regards

KonTim - April 19, 2006 06:35 PM (GMT)
I think that the whole philosophy of that formation structure and-mostly-existance is wrong.In Greece we have made a terrible mistake:we have misunderstand the means of "Special Operations" and "Rapid Reaction".A "Rapid Reaction" operation isn't needfully a Special Operation/and a Special Operation isn't needfylly a Rapid Reaction operation.This fact indicates by the worster mean that the Greek military leadership has lack of knowledge,education.interest and fantasy.The Greek armed forces Special Forces are now unfortunately at the worst level they could been...

Lord - April 20, 2006 07:40 AM (GMT)
No doubt...about the fantasy of the leadership...

2 point though

The chief in staff has now the best units under hes direct command...
(something which was missing in the Imia crisis....)
The first units who will contact the enemy will be the creme de la creme of our Army...
Therefore...he and only he has the command..directly...and without losing time...

The SF...as units are in the best level they could be in the last decades...
New equippment
New tactics...
semi proffesional units...nearly 90%
which rises the level of training and the methodes...
Who doubt about Z mak or ETA...? Or the OYK units...Or the 575 Marine Batallion....?

What I do miss is the fantasy ... and the "kanones emplokis" of this units...
this must be corrected imidiatly...
The use of weappons must be similiar to other Armys...

Just a few thoughts...
I think the leadership is on the right way to correct mistakes of the past...


Regards

baris75 - April 20, 2006 07:12 PM (GMT)
I am not an expert but I think Kontim is right that there should be a distinguishment between Specfor and rapid action forces and sf should never fight like the normal infantry. I can not understand the theme of the article but from Kontim's words I get the impression that the philosophy of Greek Armed Forces is this way. I think the first units to tackle the enemy face to face should be the elit infantry forces like marines or army rangers but not the sf. For example in USA only the rangers which is an elite light infantry unit is under SOCOM. But, they only provide the perimeter security for delta and other SF units during special ops. Other times they serve like the other infantry units, although they are highly trainned they are never SF. But again I am not an expert just wanted to add my thoughts. Regards.

Lord - April 21, 2006 11:49 AM (GMT)
Your thoughts are welcome dear friend...

My point is that the 575 Marine batallion is such a unit you mention above...
100% Epandrosi...plus MBTs and Artillerie...(heli lifted or Airborne)

The other Units are highly trained SF...but the ZMak is a Unit with a slide differents...and speciallised for ambhibious recon and amphibious raid...

For excamble an Italian Unit (I have an articel about which I will scann for you) was visiting the Z Mak unit after returning from Iraq...

In one point the Italians differ ... they were only reconaisence...so they landed and moved only for 50 meters into the mainland ...lightly armed...even there Scuba gear (Italian made) wasnt for long hour time under the water...
The Zmak...made reconaisence and Raid deeper...they are not a ussual light Unit (in the means of a SF unit)
This is the differents between other Nato similar units...

Another point is that espesially this Units are mostly full with proffesionals soldiers and Officers(They were the first pure professional unit)...so the level is high and relliaebel...
Therefore the Chief wanted to have direct orders in a crisis situation...

For me personally the only reall deep reconassence and Raid Unit in the means of SF...are the ETA...
They are the only unit speciallised for deep Raids into the enemy mainland...


another objection I would have is ...

That the Marines in the Greek Army belong to the Army Corps and not to the HN like in all other Armys...

any other thoughts are welcome so we can discuss abouted...

Regards



baris75 - April 21, 2006 02:04 PM (GMT)
In fact the most suitable units for such missions are always the marines I beleive. So their trainning should always be perfect. And marine forces should always have some units sop capable embedded to them. Like the force recon of USMarines. So the other SF units either of the army or navy will freely conduct their real jobs inside the enemy terratory. In this way a rapid reaction force will be self sufficient and will not need outsider help.
If you have already seen the pics of Turkish Marines you have also seen such units in their zodiacs serving as recon forces which raids the coast before the amphibious force and clear the area for their security. Posters reffer them as SAT but most of them are such recon teams. Not only for such task forces but all elite units also should have such units attached to them. Those recon teams serve also with the Kayseri Paracom brigade and other com brigades as raiders. Such teams also serve in the normal infantry and armoured and merchandized brigades or soon will be serving.
So what I am trying to say is instead of attaching some special units of the navy or army to such dedicated units attaching them their own SF capable teams is a better idea. I may be wrong though.

Lord - April 23, 2006 09:42 AM (GMT)
I understood your point...

You know every Amphibious...SF unit of the Hellenic Army has a Reccon scuadron (Which is trained as SEAL...
I know what you mean...also i know that this recon units of the Turkish SF belongs to the Marine corps... ;)
This was the case of me...
I started as a green Beret...after testing...i joined the Navy SEAL (MYK back than..) afte the 6 months and plus 1 month for Parachute...i returned to the Green Berets (SF Rangers) But on a Island...(So my specialise was Coast recon /and not underwater demolitions.....(Of corse iam trained in naval underwater explosition as well...) But my duity at my unit was Recon ...

I know that the Marines haid the same Suadrons...also any other SF unit...
which has ex-SEAL trained Officers who belong to the Army Corps...

The pure SEAL belong to the HN (Navy) ...and continiou there training in mostly Navy specific actions...(recopturing ships/controling ships/Raid/underwater destroyings...Recon of enemy vessels...harbors...etc etc...
with one differents...they also have been used for mainland raids...(what i concern wrong...the most false paradigm was Imia Crisis..SEALs whould never have been sended there...and of corse not if you dont let them/give them shuting orders)
In Albania they safed alot of greeks and other national ethnicitys...in resque action...
This kind of action are clearly there "thing"

Marines should also belong to the Navy...(under the controll of the Navy)

Regards

in half an hour i have to join :drink: tody we will drink some liters of good greek wine... ;)

baris75 - April 23, 2006 10:47 AM (GMT)
Lord, if you excuse me I have to ask a few questions, be cause I am a bit confused here. So, you mean that the Greek Naval SF (SEAL) belongs to the Army.Or do they select their personell from the Army. And, how many weeks does the trainning of SEALs and Army SF take. As you have written , did it take 7 mounths for you to taken the trainning and you were not a SEAL but from a recon unit trainned by the SEALs or am I totally :hammer: . Sorry for the inconvinience and thanks for the answers.

Lord - April 24, 2006 11:13 AM (GMT)
No problem friend i will gladly explain...

Hope with my bad english that you can understand finally... :D

Ok its like this...(or better to say it was like this...)

If been recruited as most greeks into the Army...after i sign as vollunteer fro the SF
My personall first base was the SF base in Perama Attica...(near Athens)
There is the main base of the SF (or better to say it was...)
anyway...
After beeing under oat..(after the first 18 days..) we haid/could choose in which particular SF unit we wanted to serve...
Rangers (LOK)..which included the Amphibious units too...(back than called MAK)
Marines
Parachutes
Or SEALs...(MYK)
I served back in 90-91
so back than they took in all this units also conscripts...

so i wanted to go to the OYK..(seal) there they took us(Skaramanga base which belongs to the Navy) and we went to be tested...again...(health contissions) swimming abilities and physical contission...including some other tests too...
After a few days...all the newcomers were informed in which units they will serve..and what specialisation they will take/be ...
Me and some (few) were choosed finally for the MYK...and we took our stuff and went there by truck...
so the Hell begunn for the next 6months...not including weekends...
From the first 80 newcomers we haid excluding concripts...also carrier officers from the SF Army corps and ofcorse officers from the Navy...
which I told you...
The differents is...after we finished our training in MYK...(a few from us)
everybody was sended back to hes main unit...
Which means...
The SF rangers officers back to there units...and the Navy officers continiou as SEALs for the Navy...(As I said the SEALS) are Navy unit...and do not belong to the Army Corp...
Because i was selected from day one...from the SF Rangers (green beret) i too belong to the Army Corp...
That was the differents...

Which means...theoritical i could serve 1.on a frigatte...having ended the main training...
But this kind of serving is/was only for SEALs coming firstly from the Navy...
the army personall...went back to the main units...and haid in my days allways the specialisation of Recon unit for the Marines or Amphibious Rangers...

so I hope you understood how it worked...
Another paradeigm is...
The SF ranger officers after some years could be transfered to the Marines...or to the Parachutes...our officers in the SF...were all Paras...and most of them haid also SEAL training...alot of them visited shools abroad...like the SAS..US...France...Germany etc etc...
This days and some years ago...there is created the Ranger shool in Rentina...
which is another classified training shool for Rangers...together with the sniper shool...
Greek SF officers are highly trained...and therefore very respected among the units...

Hope i could explain... ;)

baris75 - April 24, 2006 08:14 PM (GMT)
Thanks for clearing up things, even a thick head like me has understood the process. Just one more question and I will bother you nomore. Were you a conscript or professional soldier back then.

Lord - April 25, 2006 07:10 AM (GMT)
I served for nearly 2 years...as semiprofessional i would say... ;)
plus add 11 manouvers (counting from 5-10 days) from 1991 till last year november


ps. No bothering at all ....


Regards

baris75 - April 25, 2006 11:06 AM (GMT)
Dear Lord, thanks for the answers and your patiance.

PINDOS - April 29, 2006 08:08 AM (GMT)
I was reading the article and the reactions of some of the forum-members and I have a couple of questions...
Lord how do you, as inside man in the special forces, see the hellenic special forces? Are they elite-troops or are they special forces in the normal way of the word? One of the forummembers made a remark on this matter, saying that the igesia used them as elite-forces, thus neglecting their true job...

Another question I have:
our defense dogma is very defensive. In case of war, we try to stop any attack, re-occupy any lost island and start a campaign in Thraki (to have a stronger stance in peace-talkings). What I was wondering, could it be that our defensive dogma is against true special forces actions?
What I mean to say, if you play it defensive the special forces will always stay on your ground, while they were meant to sobatoge the enemy on his ground...

Or do I see it the wrong way?
The airforce has forward basis (Limnos), thus could and propably will take actions above Turkeys airspace. Could it be that we stationed the special forces on islands, not because we want to have elite soldiers to stop any enemy attack, but to start special forces campaigns on the Turkish coastal areas?

Lord - April 29, 2006 11:05 AM (GMT)
First of all iam happy to see you back my old brother...

Now to your accurate questions...which indicates that you have spend some thoughts on the theme...

SF...
What excactly is the need for SF....

Greece isnt a country which could have only one brand of SF...but all kind of brands/groups...

ETA..is the original aggresive SF troop which will be used for deep recon and raid/sabotage deep into the enemy land...and very specific SF actions...

Rangers (LOK) are the units which one could said are Elite infanterie...which will be used in different occasions...
such as re-occupation of lost lands...hunting down enemy SF units which are indicated in the back of our own lines...or Anti-guirella fights (which in this they are specialised)
because the Amphibious ranger units stationed on Islands (i differ the Z Mak) are parts of the Rangers (LOK) they will be used sertenly firtsly for the difficould defend of sensibel stands-landmarks ...like Radar stations...Harbor -airport facilitys...Water suplie facilitys and ofcorse any electrical facilitys...etc etc

Officers like to say that they will use the Rangers as there good card in need...

Now about the ZMak...this unit has been proffesionalized for specific needs...
which is reoccupation of Islands/Islets..and crisis aka Imia...also of minor counter strikes...especially against raids and enemy SF..specilised on Amphibious Recon...

Marines now are the the Unit which are the Heavy Arm...they are indeed the only unit which can operate in any occasion separatly and alone...in all kind of actions...but especially in reoccupation of Bigger Islands...suppporting the powers of defending units on Islands...but also as counter attack on coasts...to cut for excamble enemy lines...or make a bridgehead for advancing units...

and there we goto the Parachute Units...
together with the created 71 airlift/airborne unit...they are pure "support" units...or better said specific operation unit...indeed if there would be a need they could even support the advancing Marines for excamble or make there advancing easyer for the Marines or any other brand...and so on...
They will be dropt into cut of(surounded units) units to support there defends...(one excamble)
Or droop behind enemy lines to cut any retreat of the enemy...(second excamble)
Or to support simply a defence of any other unit...Therefore someone can say ..yes they are SF Elite infanterie...

Of corse one shoud add that the appiriance of SF units and especially the Green Beret...makes others...and give others a boost to there Spirit...and even fighting capablities...

another point is we have to differ...the carrier officers of all this units...
There specialisation is enormous compared to the conscript soldiers or to any other simple officer...
this man will be used if needed for special operations...they are the ones who can make the differents...

Another clearly "agressive" Units are the OYK Seals...yes this unit will be used for Raids...and not only for Marine/Navy targets...together with the Limenikon units they will be the pirates in the Aegean,... ;)


But to answer to your question with one word dear Bro...

ETA...is the unit your are searching for...with great distance to any other...They are the creme de la creme...among the best units in the world...and with experiance of real operations....


Regards

KonTim - May 1, 2006 05:50 PM (GMT)
Dear Lord,did i read well?You were Amphibious Raider?Can i ask to which Squadron?--now allow me please some marks:it seems that here we are talking about different things.You are that by the Greek Army only ETA is a real SF unit.This however does not mean that ETA is suitable to Rapid Reaction operations or at least this is not the propert mean to exploit such a unit existance.ETA is rather similar to 22th SAS Regiment(of cource not comparible in combat value) heading to act in covert/cladestine operations at the enemy rear-lines mostly in Direct Action,Special Recconaissance,Unconventional Warfare operations.Those missions especially the two lasts are not Rapid Reaction operations.If we wanted to categorized the Greek army elite forces we could say(at least in my view) that at the topper we have ETA,to an intermediate level we have Raiders/Amphibious Raiders forces acting as typical "Commando" forces and in lower level we have the Marines(all these by the optical view of Special Operations capable units).The parachuters belongs to a very particular category.Noone can tell if they are ParaRaiders or simply airborne elite infantry force.On that issue there are many views and stands.

Lord - May 2, 2006 07:32 AM (GMT)
Yes as I said I belonged to the Rangers...with SEAL training
I finished the MYK back than plus parachute training...and returned back to my unit...which were the Rangers (Eidikes Dynameis )I served mainly on Islands...I didnt belong to the NAVY...


Now back to your analysis...i dont understand were the differentsy is..between my opinion and yours...?

ETA...is in my opinion...and was the only pure elite force...which can handle all kind of actions /operation SF etc etc...
For one main reason...they were allways professionals...and allways under extremely high level training...even operations...There is nothing comaparable with them...you have a point in comparing them to SAS...

The next in line units which could follow them are the OYK...(SEAL)...

My analysis has reasons...
Someone has to think about the size of each unit mention above...the character etc etc...to make hes conclusion that this units are really for Special operations...aka sabotage/Raids/Reccon etc etc as you mentioned too...

ETA Or OYK dosent operate ever in size of Battalions nor even in a size of a troop(dioimiria)...but in Teams...another characteristic of there Nature..
Yet after Imia Zmak(which is a new created professional SF unit)...uses there troops also in similar sizes...except if there is a need for bigger numbers...they are ready to use them and actually have them ...even as a (lohos) or bigger...comparissing manouvers with similar units (Italian) showed the differentses using the ZMak ...I dont think for excamble that any other Army has something similar like the ZMak....Or if you prefer the specialised creation/using/operation of this unit...

Now the rest of our SF units...are compared to the above ...Heavy...especially our Marines...
Of corse as mentioned the officers could be used for any kind of operations..but the main task of this SF units...are someting like Elite Infanterie...(my opinion)...and this happens to all similar NATO Armys...Elite infanterie dosent mean I lower the level of this units...for God sakes...but rather categorise the use of this unit...

Let us analyse a manouver of a Marine battalion...ok..?

1...Information (EYP/ETA...Pictures/Satellite) of the beach and the enemy power on the coast...or sabotage a harder target to make the landing possible)
2. Reccon...(mainly Amphibious units make this recon...before any landing SEAL trained) setting marks etc etc analyse the Beach and the underwater contissions/of shores ...etc etc
3.The Marines...which all the support they can have...make landing operation...

The ETA will be used as a high profesional unit which makes no mistakes...even inside a rapid reaction operation...why are you excluding this fact? If there is a need to react "rapid" which kind of units you would prefer as a commander? For shure units which are any time ready to hit back.and you will use your best units from time Zero...Without making the mistake to SET above a Islet ....OYKs/ETAs...and give them the order not to shoot if necessary... :damn: because this is the MAIN greek problem...(my opinion)

Regards.... :thumbsup:

PINDOS - May 3, 2006 12:33 PM (GMT)
Dear Lord,

thanks for your time replying in my previous post...
If allowed, I have another question:

You gave a very detailed description of the Hellenic sf/elite units, in which you told that only the ETA are true SF and the OYK in a lesser degree (do I say it in the correct way??).

Also, in your answer you said that most of our sf, are specialized in anti-guerilla operations. And one of their main goals is to hunt down enemy sf.
Again I get the idea that our whole sf is based on the very Defensive doctrine that we have enhanced. You also mentioned the problem of "only shoot if necessery"...

Since Turkey is the main threat for Greece, what are your opinions on their SF. Are they trained for more aggressive operations, or are they in doctrine and specializations comparable with the Greek SF??



The final question in this thread (Lord forgive me for all this questions, but you are the one with the best knowledge on this topics), KonTim made a remark on which I have a question, he said that the ETA's combat value isn't comparable to the SAS.
We all know that the SAS/SBS belong to the world's top SF, do you feel the ETA can (in levels of training, proffesionality, weapon- survival- skills) meet the SAS-level? Do the Greek SF follow foreign SF-programs, in which they could take a taste of different tactics/trainings etc.?

Lord - May 3, 2006 01:36 PM (GMT)
Pindo Brother...your questions are accurate as allways...and there is nothing to forgive.. ;)
forgive me for using quote..but it seems easyer to answer directly to your question...and allways with my own opinion mixed with the official theses of our SF...


QUOTE
You gave a very detailed description of the Hellenic sf/elite units, in which you told that only the ETA are true SF and the OYK in a lesser degree (do I say it in the correct way??).

No...I would set the OYK (SEAL) concerning training/properation/level/specialiasation...in a very high level...
But there nature of operation diverse alot comparing the ETA...
But both of this units are the best "agressive" pure SF unit we have...

QUOTE
Also, in your answer you said that most of our sf, are specialized in anti-guerilla operations. And one of their main goals is to hunt down enemy sf.
Again I get the idea that our whole sf is based on the very Defensive doctrine that we have enhanced. You also mentioned the problem of "only shoot if necessery"...


Yes indeed ...all our SF units make alot of times the so called "antartopolemo" manouver/excersices which is both...hunting down enemy SF acting as guerillias or as sabotage/raid etc etc...But they excersise also in operating as guerillias too...also in mountain surviving under extremely contissions The whole script of excersises in the Greek SF is big...
Now about the defensive stand...
I would say its rather political than military...Our military are ready any time to shoot...(especially SF are any time ready) Through the order which has to be given from above (and i mean the political order)
Defensive is the stand of the Army in generall...(also an political choice/stand)
But I wouldnt take this official stand as granted...
It can change very quickly...
what I mean...?
If you have units on all our Island for excamble...(firstly in defensive stand lets assume) what does it need to change them into agressive? the same nature of the specific operation or counter action...
in both types our SF are ready to act...
Now talking in numbers...
If we would for excamble change the Marines Into a whole Divission...this would be taken from any neighbor as an agressive stand...
If the Syntagma katadromon(Rangers regiment)...would change and rise in numbers to a divission (merarhia)...(because the position of each unit is relative...via quick transfer they can be anywere any time etc etc) this would mean that we change our doctrine from defensive to "agressive"..
Something that we blaim the Turks about there 4 Army Corps (called Aegean corps) standing across our Islands...
You see the doctrine and nature of our SF ...is also Agressive...(better said) SF are allways aggressive card in the hand of any commander...the numbers count...to set your level in agressive or defensive...

QUOTE
Since Turkey is the main threat for Greece, what are your opinions on their SF. Are they trained for more aggressive operations, or are they in doctrine and specializations comparable with the Greek SF??


Turkey in my opinion...
has 1 thing better than greece..Its the number of there SF units...
They have bigger regiments/divissions...etc etc
Plus someone has to add the paramilitary troops...and the Gendarma
Most of there units have real life experiance from the Kurdish operations...(something that cant compare with anything)
They have a agressive nature...as a nation
This fact does count even among the organisation of there forces...
Our most agressive people can be found also only in SF ...no were else...
so of corse the numbers counts...

Now about specialization...No they arent comparable with us...
The fact that we have in this forum Turkish friends with high level knowledge and opinion...dosent mean that there whole Army is the same...
I saw Turks in excersises...There Officers are good...and in the same level with ours...But the simple soldier...is missarable...(forgive me to say so..) They gaved me the expression...to follow like sheeps there officers...disciplined /harsh but like sheeps...without any tactic (excamble Marines)
It needed allways some officer to jell at them ..so they moved...otherwise they were like paralysed...(its my opinion ..and i saw this happen)
Greeks are fast learner..quick...and with good knowledge level...
Importand fact ..if it comes to act...they know what to do...
You tell a simply seargent to move a whole batallion...and he can do it...
this are some of the differentses that i saw and expirianced...
Of corse...we as greeks shouldnt stay secure that they Turks are "haivans"...they are working hard to rise the level high...and its only a time thing ...what we should do ?...stay at our standards...continiou the same way.


QUOTE
The final question in this thread (Lord forgive me for all this questions, but you are the one with the best knowledge on this topics), KonTim made a remark on which I have a question, he said that the ETA's combat value isn't comparable to the SAS.
We all know that the SAS/SBS belong to the world's top SF, do you feel the ETA can (in levels of training, proffesionality, weapon- survival- skills) meet the SAS-level? Do the Greek SF follow foreign SF-programs, in which they could take a taste of different tactics/trainings etc.?


ETA is comparable with SAS/SBS...I have reports from Germany and Great Britain...(via magazines) and articels...
That any unit which made excersise with our ETA...were impressed...my opinion is that our ETA is used in alot of places around the world...There material is allways and was on the highest modern level...methods /arms etc etc
My opinion is they should be more of them...

PINDOS - May 3, 2006 03:39 PM (GMT)
Lord, thanks for the answers..

baris75 - May 3, 2006 08:05 PM (GMT)
I am sorry Lord but I must say that I disagree in most of the points about the Turkish Army esspecialy that the simply soldier being unable to take initiative without being yelled at. In fact I get quite happy when I see such comments when they come from a citizen of a country whose military doctrine is only build on the fear of my country's offensive. This means that they can't appreciate my country or just doing it on purpose for some other reason and I read them with joy really. But, when such comments came from you, I felt in need of saying something.

The SF of Turkish Armed Forces consists of two brigades which makes one division, all consist of professional soldiers no conscripts are allowed.All of these guys are hardenned by the very cruel nature of guerrilla warfare from the mountains of S.East Turkey to the deserts of mid-east or some unknown place on earth which we will never be able to learn. They are very well armed with every kind of weaponary which varies from Galil-SARs to AKs, Minimis to PKMs thus giving them a great flexiblity in choice of weapons suitable for the job being done or region they are operating in. Beleive me they are very well organized for their primary job and they can conduct any kind of operation, be it phsycological or CT, without the support of any other units anywhere on earth. They have been trainning the armies of a lot of countries from East Africa to South America, some of these countries names and the footages of trainning of their armies are made public but, most of them are kept as secret for a very very long time and will remain so in the future too. These are the Army Sf which is under the command of the General Staff from the day they were founded. Their trainning period lasts more than 2,5 years and these trainnings include a very wide range of trainning processes. I won't bore you by giving more details.
B)

SAT/SAS are a different story. They are like the SEALs of USA. And their trainning last more than a year. They are bigger than a batallion and conduct all kinds of SF operations, just a quick search on the google and you can find some of their ops very easily against the druglords in the Mediterranian. Consist of professionals

Third one is the gendarmerrie special operations groups. They also operate in the rural areas of S.East Turkey against the terrorist organization called PKK. They are capable of special operations and most of them are professional soldiers. They have special weapons and tactics units, snipper units and anti-riot units. SWAT and snipper units are professional soldiers. There are also A-teams and B-teams consisting of professional soldiers.

The elite units such as the commando brigades and the marines, consist mostly of conscripts. Their trainning last for 3-4 mounths, and they keep on trainning during the whole military service. Once a German had told me that, when he had seen the trainning of those units he had thought his service was nothing beyond holiday compared to them. I heard very similar things from an Azeri officer who had also served in the ex.USSR army. He said that he was proud to see his Russian colleugeas praising their Turkish counter-parts and their trainning. He said he was very happy when he had the chance to see the Turkish Army and that those praises are more than realty (those are his words not mine.). There are 4 commando, 1 Marine Brigade and a Gendarmarrie commando brigade that composses the Elite Forces of the Turkish Army. And, I have heard many stories of those guys and spoken to some witnesses who fought over the mountains with those young guys and saw what meant to take innitiative with their bare eyes when fight got hard. I don't know what you have seen with the Turkish Marines but I do refuse that these kids are sheep but I urge you to see them over the mountains fighting at a height of 3000 m. at -15, -25 C and they do it as if they are doing something very naturel and routine. They sometimes train with other countries elite forces like the Paras or Marine Commandos of England, Marines of USA or commandos from Pakistan and always leave the field with full honors, never feeling frustration but instead with conceit and compliments of their counter-parts. The only poor side of the Turkish Army is they don't make such events public they keep them as secrets and never tell anyone about them and this makes their achivements look less.
Every country, every army has rotten eggs but you should never generalize, that would make you look arrogant. You can make comments on your army, but, leave commenting on Turkish army to Turks, let them come with their own assesments. I beleive the credibility of Turkish posters here are proven and you don't doubt them. I don't mean you should never comment on TuAF but just don't generalize them without seeing the whole picture.

Lord - May 4, 2006 07:35 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
I don't know what you have seen with the Turkish Marines but I do refuse that these kids are sheep but I urge you to see them over the mountains fighting at a height of 3000 m. at -15, -25 C and they do it as if they are doing something very naturel and routine


...my words arent arrogant at all...nor are they offensive...
But I have my personall experiance so i write it down...


QUOTE
.Every country, every army has rotten eggs but you should never generalize, that would make you look arrogant. You can make comments on your army, but, leave commenting on Turkish army to Turks, let them come with their own assesments. I beleive the credibility of Turkish posters here are proven and you don't doubt them. I don't mean you should never comment on TuAF but just don't generalize them without seeing the whole picture. 


My dear friend...my comments dont come out of hot aer...dont compare me with some kiddo 20 years old...that never kept any weappon in hes arms...
I can critise any army that I want so can you...because i have the knowledge to do so and did it also on my own army...
Iam not mentioning ..that someone told me that or this...But I comment facts that I saw personally...
If a country like Turkey sends there units outside for a manouver...Iam shure they send not the rotten eggs such as you said...but instead there best...no?
aka Marines...
so i saw...and i comment about this...tamam?
We have eyes...and can see...so we are commenting...and critises evrything and anything ...
QUOTE
I don't mean you should never comment on TuAF but just don't generalize them without seeing the whole picture. 

This last words of yours are respected...and i will stay on them...as correct...
Of corse here you have a point...we cant judge without seeing the whole picture...but who can see the whole picture...?
so let me judge the pic or image (metaphoric) that I saw...and try to prove to me otherwise...without having thin skin...

last but not least...Thanks for further infos about the strainght of the SF of Turkey...as you saw...from my writting I mention the most of the units you wrote...also you can see...

were i said to a compatriot above..."dont think the Turks are "haivans" nor weak...Therefore we must continiou to work/train/and be prepered allways hard and realistic...(This was the meaning of my words...what more do you expect?)
Baris..But you have to learn to see the mistakes...and learn to talk about...dont feel offensed..because there is no reason...dont let your patriotism overcome you...your spirit...your clear look...all things arent white and black...there is indeed a great grey zone... ;) Therefore as an elder i start and say to you...Please forgive me if i offensed your believes...But also please never tell me again what i can or cant write and say...

Now back to topic...

I will set a scanned material about the greek SF ...which critises the fact that the command of our Army ...dont create a SF command of its own...including all the units...from all corps...
You see there is allways correction work to do...
Another point that i mentioned above is the numbers...Our numbers as greek SF must rise...It isnt enough to have only this numbers...(main reason is... your neighbor has the double number of elite soldiers...)
About weappons...?
There cant be a comperising nor a pissing contest...Its normal that units like the SF...have everywere around the world the best of the best...
therefore i wont go into this chit chat...about arms/weappons...etc etc///

ps...What better words could an "enemy" say than this....? and look...again (Its IN...my opinion...)
QUOTE
Turkey in my opinion...
has 1 thing better than greece..Its the number of there SF units...
They have bigger regiments/divissions...etc etc
Plus someone has to add the paramilitary troops...and the Gendarma
Most of there units have real life experiance from the Kurdish operations...(something that cant compare with anything)
They have a agressive nature...as a nation
This fact does count even among the organisation of there forces...


Regards

baris75 - May 4, 2006 08:10 AM (GMT)
I am not offended nor my patriosism is overcoming my senses dear Lord but, as I have mentioned I had sensed that you have misconcepted and misevaluated the TuArmed Forces' capacity. That is why I had explained my intension of writing that post in the first paragraph of old post. But, English is not my native language you see, and I beleive I could not phrase what I was trying to say properly. I hope you were not also offended with what I had said. I know you are a man with enough qualification to make such comments that is why I said without seeing the whole pic it may make look arrogant to make such comments although that was not your intension.

I won't comment on other things you have written as I beleive I made my points quite clear.


Lord - May 4, 2006 08:20 AM (GMT)
:drink:

Lord - May 4, 2006 11:58 AM (GMT)

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Lord - May 4, 2006 01:12 PM (GMT)
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Lord - May 4, 2006 01:16 PM (GMT)
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Lord - May 4, 2006 01:20 PM (GMT)
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Regards..More to come..especially for greeks abroad who cant get this magazines...
Articel taken from Amyntika Themata...

baris75 - May 16, 2006 12:42 PM (GMT)
Dear Lord, I have read somewhere that the amphibous brigade belongs to the 1st para-commando brigade , is that true or I have misunderstood it all.

Lord - May 17, 2006 04:24 PM (GMT)
Maybe this site can help you about the structure of the hellenic army...
http://www.army.gr/n/e/structure/elements/index.html

The whole Ranger regiment belongs to the 1 Infanterie Brigade...which belongs to the B Corp of the Hellenic Army.
Structure has changed of corse since than...
so that the Ranger regiment becomes more intepentent...
Therefore all of us who belonged to the SF...are seaking for an 'intepentant" SF Command...something that will happen in the near future...


Regards

OYK1 - June 1, 2006 09:30 PM (GMT)
LORD,

I like the idea of this force, especially the fact that it is a joint force combining combat units from the army, navy, air force, and special forces into one joint command.

I don't know how the Greek military organizes for the defense of Thrace, but perhaps a similar Joint Force should be organized for a border incursion along the Evros River.

Perhaps such a joint force could be approximately a Corps in size and could include the following units:

*2 or 3 mechanized infantry brigades equipped with the Leopard 2HELs, Marder 1A3s, Pzh 2000s.

*1st TEEP's AH-64A Apaches.

* 1 M270 MLRS battalion.

* 111 PM's 3 F-16 squadrons.

* a squadron of frigates and missile boats to protect the Thracian coast against a possible Turkish amphibious assault.



OYK1

Lord - June 2, 2006 09:57 AM (GMT)
First of all...were have you been ...?
welcome back... :thumbsup:

Indeed you catched the point...

Regards

OYK1 - June 2, 2006 10:08 PM (GMT)
LORD, thanks. I haven't really gone, but have been extremely busywith work and family. Now work has let up, so I have more time.

KonTim - June 3, 2006 07:40 AM (GMT)
I don't think that we need a Rapid Reaction Force to the Evros river front.In case of war the 4th Army Corp could be enforced by conventional units,groups and formations by the mainland on land.I think that to this front we should have a strategical reserve force mainly consisted by armored and mechanized formations to the size of a corp directly under the control of the 1th Army to Larisa.Let's say a corp consisting by 2 armored and 2 mechanized divisions-the size is largely optemistic but that conclude to my whole point of view about the army size,structure,menpower,armament,training etc.

Koursaros - June 4, 2006 01:45 PM (GMT)
The Evros river is defended by 2 mechanized infantry divisions, the 12th and the 16th as a first line of defence, each consisting of 2 mechanised infantry brigades with organic artillery and armored units. There are also 2 PZH2000 squadrons, organic to each of the 2 divisions. The amount of artillery and armor located in the area is astounding. There are also 2 MLRS squadrons located near Kavala i believe plus RM70 squadrons (2 i think). There is also the 10th armored division plus some independent armored brigades which are the armored reserve of the D corps (not the rapid reaction one). From what I see during my service in the 110 SP Art SQ/31st Mechanised Brigade I can safely say that the Evros front cannot be forced by the Turkish forces stationed in Thrace.

KonTim - June 23, 2006 08:45 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Koursaros @ Jun 4 2006, 03:45 PM)
The Evros river is defended by 2 mechanized infantry divisions, the 12th and the 16th as a first line of defence, each consisting of 2 mechanised infantry brigades with organic artillery and armored units. There are also 2 PZH2000 squadrons, organic to each of the 2 divisions. The amount of artillery and armor located in the area is astounding. There are also 2 MLRS squadrons located near Kavala i believe plus RM70 squadrons (2 i think). There is also the 10th armored division plus some independent armored brigades which are the armored reserve of the D corps (not the rapid reaction one). From what I see during my service in the 110 SP Art SQ/31st Mechanised Brigade I can safely say that the Evros front cannot be forced by the Turkish forces stationed in Thrace.

Koursaros some marks on your stands:don't drop your shelf into the trap of considering Evros River defense unbreakable.The most serious mistake that anyone could make is taking some scenarios as impossible to be happened.The French in WWII considered that Ardennes are passelles by tanks and they felt complentely suprised when the Germans attacked there.Evros river defense IS NOT as strong as it is believed to.We should have 6 divisions and the front line of Evros while we have only 2.The armoured division we have at Kavala(20th) isn't large enough to play the role of the operational reserve of D Army Corp.Moreover behind the river of Nestos after the recent army reorganisation there is nothing left.If the Turks manage to breakthrough,neutralise or overwhelming by manoeuvres our defenses at Evros front there is really nothing capable of stopping them of marching towards Thessaloniki.

OYK1 - June 26, 2006 07:43 PM (GMT)
KonTim,

More to what Koursaros is saying, any offensive across the Evros will be met by minefields that will limit maneuver, FASCAM that will further limit maneuver, MLRS and RM-70 that will further limit maneuver and destroy entire units, SMArt 155 shells that will rapidly destroy entire units, as well as DPICM that will do the same thing.

Then the attackers will have to face large numbers of ATGWs (especially the new Kornet E) used in combination with Leopard 2s to form a formidable defense from prepared positions. Any attacker would probably need several thousand MBTs and IFVs to breach the defenses of Thrace. The attrition would be so severe that any victory would be Phyrric, indeed. If losses are as severe as I believe they will be, the Turkish public opinion may be so disgusted that they may force some changes in leadership or perhaps an end to hostilities, provided that the Turkish military is open about such losses. More likely, any attack there would be neutralized in a few days, leaving a counterstroke a strong possibility if D Corps command is given this option.

KOKORO - June 30, 2006 05:03 PM (GMT)
hey

Every body
ın greek leventis means sea soldıer who ıs strong and powerful.

also ın turkısh we call amfibuques soldiers as levet.
;)

and very old saying


DirtyBird - July 5, 2006 06:11 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (OYK1 @ Jun 26 2006, 09:43 PM)
If losses are as severe as I believe they will be, the Turkish public opinion may be so disgusted that they may force some changes in leadership or perhaps an end to hostilities, provided that the Turkish military is open about such losses. More likely, any attack there would be neutralized in a few days, leaving a counterstroke a strong possibility if D Corps command is given this option.

It would be foolish to think that the Turkish public opinion would change as result of casualty levels, especially if the conflict is viewed in self defence. Death in defence of the homeland is a great honor for Turks and I dont mean in the often misconcieved watered down way other muslim countries view it. For Turks in many ways this goes beyond religion, it has to do with honoring the sacrifices of earlier generations, you will understand this better if you consider that almost every family in Turkey including mine, has somebody who has died in battle no more than one or two generations ago, whether it be as recent as in the battles in the Southeast or as early WWI.

The honoring of death in defence of the country sometimes manifests itself in ways that would otherwise be viewed as absurd in other countries. For example you will find that parents who have lost a son in battle in the SouthEast will say during funerals that the sacrifice of their sons life is justified in defence of the country and ask that their other sons be sent to the same post.

Mind you this willingness to accept casualties should not be misjudged as a lack of respect for human life either. The expectation is that commanders will value the lives of all under their command and avoid casualties where not necessary, so you wont see the Turkish army performing human waves or suicide attacks. Its about the willingness to fight at all cost knowing and accepting that there will be casualties, this is a time honored tradition of the Turkish military and what makes it an extremely disciplined and effective army.

D.E.A - July 5, 2006 10:11 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (DirtyBird @ Jul 5 2006, 08:11 PM)
QUOTE (OYK1 @ Jun 26 2006, 09:43 PM)
If losses are as severe as I believe they will be, the Turkish public opinion may be so disgusted that they may force some changes in leadership or perhaps an end to hostilities, provided that the Turkish military is open about such losses.  More likely, any attack there would be neutralized in a few days, leaving a counterstroke a strong possibility if D Corps command is given this option.

It would be foolish to think that the Turkish public opinion would change as result of casualty levels, especially if the conflict is viewed in self defence. Death in defence of the homeland is a great honor for Turks and I dont mean in the often misconcieved watered down way other muslim countries view it. For Turks in many ways this goes beyond religion, it has to do with honoring the sacrifices of earlier generations, you will understand this better if you consider that almost every family in Turkey including mine, has somebody who has died in battle no more than one or two generations ago, whether it be as recent as in the battles in the Southeast or as early WWI.

The honoring of death in defence of the country sometimes manifests itself in ways that would otherwise be viewed as absurd in other countries. For example you will find that parents who have lost a son in battle in the SouthEast will say during funerals that the sacrifice of their sons life is justified in defence of the country and ask that their other sons be sent to the same post.

Mind you this willingness to accept casualties should not be misjudged as a lack of respect for human life either. The expectation is that commanders will value the lives of all under their command and avoid casualties where not necessary, so you wont see the Turkish army performing human waves or suicide attacks. Its about the willingness to fight at all cost knowing and accepting that there will be casualties, this is a time honored tradition of the Turkish military and what makes it an extremely disciplined and effective army.

It is a very common thing among civs to "see" a death for their country as the ultimate action towards what they believe to be invaluable...The first to teach this were ancient Hellenes because they were among if not the only civs to develop a belief of common ancestry along the other city states and a premature "feeling" of a common nation.

Remember the paianas before Salamis.




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