http://ta-nea.dolnet.gr/print_article.php?...8392&m=N09&aa=1

Translation: PASOK and SYN (leftists/communists) are proposing giving immigrants the right to vote. For the most part these immigrants illegally entered Hellas, but were "legalized" by PASOK/ND.

God save us all from the "progressives"!

God save us.

we talked about this in the past...and yes indeed...the second question which this progressive "human" should asked them self...is If someone can/should vote...why shouldnt he be voted also...? <_<

So maybe in some regions/disctrics...we will maybe manage to have a pakistani or a phillipino major.... :wall:

God save us...


Lord the Racist... :hathello:

The answer to my thread...?

Lord the Progressive... :wall:

Question are :

Will countries with a huge percentage of immigrants be able to maintain their "old" laws, habits and rights ?

Will a society with a lot of parallelly living groups which try to maintain their legacy be able to exist ?

Might the feeling of having a second-class-citizenship lead to a feeling of inferiority and therefore violence ?

Add one more question dear friend...

why not even one from this progressive humans...asnwered to my question...?
How and why the minority inside a society should have the right to rule and change...?
(Actually i asked someone this question concernig the parades...but it fits here too...)

Regards

The question about the reason or the degree of transferring rights to immigrants should be asked after another question:



Is is realizable to refuse immigrant rights/ refuse that they contribute (whether positively or negatively) to the society`s change ?

--> That is to say trying to maintain old "state structures" ?
--> Can countries suffering from a population decrease maintain or afford to follow such a policy ?
--> Can anybody force people to adapt "adequately" ?


More general: Can immigration be avoided when it isn´t desirable for society ?

Those immigrants that have flooded Greece for the last 15 years, those immigrants that have nothing but theft, violence and criminality in their minds, those immigrants that burn my flag, those immigrants that refuse to be assimilated within my culture, those immigrants that do not recognize and respect the country they live in, all those immigrants the only thing they could vote is the way to say goodbuy to this life...

Hades the Racist

but maybe these political participation will chance them into better citiziens. Political vote brings with it responsibility. Theo this time you shouldn't generalize ;)

All these are within the boundaries of utopia, a big fat MAYBE, a possibility... Political participation doesn't equal to positive change, and remember that nowadays political vote serves interests, no responsibility...

Some general questions should be asked at first, e.g. :

Does Europe "need" immigration ?
Will European countries be able to prevent immigration only with an augmentation of security expenses ?



Then:

Will it bring advantages for a society as a whole (that is to say with both immigrants and "indigenous" citizens) when immigrants form their societies according to their aims ?

But iam not my friend...you know excactly what i mean and feel...i know in this theses we have parallels together...
Dont compare this "new" imigrants with our fathers and grandfathers who went to germany...
Look at the new generation of them...bad and unconected to german society.
another point...
Go to Kreuzberg in Berlin...there life Turks or arabs which are maybe 40 years in germany BUT dont speak a word German...
What good did they do to the "german" society...? to earn the right to vote...?

Ok i know what you gonna say...They worked hard and fair for there living...and earned very hard there money...especially in germany...
But Kizir thats all...the most imigrants didnt give anything back to germany...societal i mean...
Maybe iam wrong...maybe iam to harsh...
But seeking for answers i did alot of comparising and self critisism...
It was allways a mentality-cultur differents between the Germans and the rest south europeans...

So resuming...
As a greek who nearly haid a "greek made" US president...2 times a greek origin CIA chief...alot of greek origin majors-secretarys-senators scientist etc etc world wide...who actually contribute positive to the society were they live...
I have to say...this.
after having mostly experianced badly imigrants in greece..."our" society isnt ready yet to vote for any "liberate-progressive move" also concerning the bad econmy in EU...such a possibility is more difficould this period...the folk seeks for methodes to let steam out...

Regards

But look at the way the US selects there "immigrants"...
indigenious citizens from worldwide...werden schon von den Unis angehoert...

Or a better question...did someone of you know how difficould it is to immigrate to the US ...? IF YOU ARENT SPECIALISED...or have enough money?
I dont thing hat there are racisistic...
We in Greece waked up...to late...
we openend our borders and let them come unselected inside...we didnt tryed to categorize to take some files on them...who is who...etc etc
so the problem occured right after...
They gaved cheap but untaxed labor...
paralell the EU expantion...gaved the oppurtunity to alot of firms to seek for cheap labor in our neighboring countrys...with the support of the GoV...(loan police)...
how long would it take to make a explosive societal mix...?
from one side you let them in...Cheap labors...than you let the frims out...
and uneploement,,,takes the heat...
This isnt police...
it is for shure that in short time you will have explosion inside...in form of racism...xenophobia etc etc


My 2 cents

Lord. A good post.


According to you a certain contribution is required to acquire the total "advantages" that a society can offer ?

Yes indeed my friend...
So i can say to any of the imigrants living here in greece for excamble...the same that i can say to my own compatriotis living abroad...

First contribute to the county you live...be gradefull...give the best...follow there rules...

And than you can earn the right of the advatages ...beeing a "real" part of this society...
Or...choose the way of a imigrant who says...NO i dont need to vote here...i will go back to my country...with the money i earnend here....and thats all...(mu familie)
But making a twist police out of imigrations bring only tensions...

Excamble...
In some districts of greece...Albanians are more than greeks...
If they go for a major there...it wont be out of humanity or "greek" or societal...interests...it will be out of bringing "futur minority problems ala kossovo..." they proved alot of times such police...and such an stand...even among simply relations among us...
The intensions arent CLEAR...

A turk living in Berlin...could be in a better position...
Because Berlin isnt neighboring with Turkey... ;)
But he must be flexibel...be "germinized"...something that folks from our regions...are very unlike...to be.
We are very conected with our nations...(especially Turks) Greeks proved alot of times that after some generations they lost there conection to homeland...they feel more "american" more australian...Ok the love is there for the homeland...but they are inbetween...


an excamble...from me...If someone speeks bad about germany..iam getting angry...
If i speak about Germans iam critisizing them all the time...weird e..? :drink2:

Albanians dont feel any love for greece at all...believe me...they dont admire our culture nor our way of living...

Another excamble...

Look at France what happend there...

and the best is this "arabs" imigrants...dont even speak Arabish..(the most of them...)
But they could not connect to the french society...

so my conclusion my dear friend is...
deeper...

1.you have to leave the "nation" state inside EU...and race a new generation of only european indicnity...
2.The imigrations inside EU must stop imdiatly ...so we cant lose controll
3.You have to race a NEW EUROPEAN RELIGION...which concludes all Europeans... <_<
4.YOU MAKE A NEW 4 world war...to start from the beginning...(j/k)

I tried to make another approach to the immigration issue, from a historical and economic view:

The specialization on natural and agricultural products by the poor countries lead into a trap, the trap of permanently increasing value-adding on manufacturing products ( products from developed economies) while the poor countries couldn´t add value on their "primitive" products.

Therefore this specialization trap created this certain gap in incomes between developed and poor societies.

In order to flee the "gap" people emigrate to achieve better living conditions.



The question is:

Isn´t therefore a certain kind of responsibility on the developed countries in the immigration question since they also contibuted to a permanently increasing income gap ?

I see the responsibility more like the need to understand that a certain part of the problem is created by the developed countries simply by neglecting the issue.


This long time neglected problem arises now in its complete form.

1. lacking identification
---> interest in exploiting social structures
---> interest in earning a living through illegal job
.
.
.

Why isnt there any identification ?
Why does the society enable the exploitation ?
Why haven´t immigrants the ability or the will to advance ?
.
.
.


Solutions:

1. abolishing complete or to a great extent social structures (e.g.
minimum wages destroy the possibilites of the poorest to participate in the economic process...) --> return to Manchester Liberalism --> Neoliberalism

2. Build up a new cosmopolitan world without religions, nations like you said in which the only thing that counts is your economic potential

3. Try with force the immigrants to adapt to "old" societal structures. But how ?

4....

Despite everything mentioned the responsibility of the developed world is harsh.

Protectionistic approaches to the problem are both unfair and inhuman.

The developed world cannot permanently determine the fate of the poor.

The income gap must be solved by finding and "annihilating" the basic problem namely the income gap.

The problem must be solved in the developing countries not in the developed.

The inability to determine the fate becomes now more than clear with the mentioned problems.

my dear Theo these immigrants (turks, greeks, italians etc) give Germany ( and the other states alot)

Why they came ? To work !
Where they paid taxes ? In these countries
Which products they bought ? Mainly the local ones
Did they were only employees ? Nope many opened a store etc. where they employ not only other immigrants but also "natives"

And Theo you can't blame the immigrants for changing economic circumstances i.e. higher production with less workes. There immigrants where the unskilled labour with were fired at first! They leaked the education. Ok that could be accepted since they could get social help (since they paid rents, social services etc. when they worked and hell they worked even more then the germans (in total hours!).
The great mistake by the governments was that they didn't see that the children of these would have another future. One where these would need better education, more integration and at most acceptance from the society! But even now the CDU speaks that Germany is no immigration country and never was ! What idiots! You have nearly 10.000.000 foreigners and many people with german passport but other origins and you say that these country is no immigration country! And if you are in power and follow this device well the consequense is Berlin-Kreuzberg. If you want second-class citziens which are on the (economic bottom) well that the way you have to chose. Look at Canada! What they did ! They didn't only got the skilled and educated immigrants but also unskilled (but with the will to work!!!) and they managed it. And the same counts in many ways also for the US!

There is indeed a huge supply of immigrant labour. It would allow states to choose the immigrants according to their needs.

For sure developed states have to follow their economic interests and in order to regularize the massive influx they have to set up conditions for entering a country.


But this would again be only egoistic and in the long-term it wouldn´t solve the immigration issue since starving and poverty would continue existing and therefore the need to flee towards better living conditions also would still exist.



In order to both limit/eliminate the negative consequences caused by uncontrolled immigration in developed countries and solve the problem at a permanent level a multilateral view on the causes, conflicts and future prospects is necessary.

Kizir,

You are confusing LEGAL immigrants with those that enter the country ILLEGALLY (which is the case with the vast majority of "immigrants" in Hellas, and a significant percent in other European countries). Furthermore, certain countries (like Germany) had "guest worker" programs where both the state and the individuals agreed to a TEMPORARY stay. If the guest workers accepted the temporary nature of their stay in some country (like Germany), then they should not complain many years later about lacking privileges they were never promised.

The LEGAL immigration process should allow any state to determine how many or what type of immigrants/guest workers it wishes to accept. If the economy REQUIRES additional workers (manual or skilled laborers), then there is a process to allow for their entry (and to determine their long term status). When countries are facing double-digit unemployment, then there is no reason to allow for massive legal and illegal immigration, when in fact they should be expelling guest workers at the end of their residence term.

If you or any immigrant does not like these terms or conditions, them DON'T IMMIGRATE. The host nations have no responsibilty in satisfying any foreigner's demands.

Firts of all 123-t ...Great approach my dear friend...
Your thoughts are deep and also meaningfull...

We could add some point though...
You cant blaim progress of some "developed" countrys...or evolution it self...
Africa is a big continent and rich...but the natives couldnt follow the whole "evolution of society"...
we cant blaim stronger forces for getting the oppurtunity to get rich...or developing...
an excamble...
Edison ...was a great man...invented alot of ...but westinghouse got rich...
also edison never saw Teslas greatness...and fired hem...instead of taken the oppurtunity to get the monopol...and so on...

The same goes for developing it self...in general
some nations take any oppurtunity and some others arent so "liberal" or progressive enough to let there own people getting a better life...
But for God sake ... It isnt the fault of the develope world...(my opinion)

@Kizir...

My dear friend i know what you mean...but Digenis answered allready ...
dont compare the imigrants in germany ...with our illigals here...

and another thing...it isnt enough to get the vote right ...because you pay taxes or have a job or create jobs...
see...were the mendality fits...see if the culture fits...see if you can give more than simply money to this "guest giving" nation...
My point is...

I would be in favor to give any newborn in greece the right to take the greek nationality...(US like)
so he could gain the greek culture and afterwoulds can be one member of this society...ready even to sacrifice hes money/progress... or life for this society/nation...which gave hem the oppurtunity to gain a better life...
Kizir are you ready to sacrifize your self for Germany...? ;)

I said it ones ...and i say it again...
My mother (greece) is not a rich foto modell ( germanY) ...she is old and ugly and poor...But she is my mother...
i differented my way from the beginning ...
I was in germany only to gain money and to come back to greece...nothing more nothing less...


Regards

Indeed Lord the question to what degree the developed world contributed to the modern misery in the world is debatable and controversial.




The immigration analogy between Greece and Germany lets an interesting question arise:


Are the Albanian immigrants in Greece really that different in mentality in relation to "old" German immigrants ? If yes , WHY, what are the reasons for their behaviour ?

No doubt about that...
Look at the Russia-Germans...for excamble how criminal intent they are...very agressive etc etc ...
The same goes for the Albans...
we all know ...the klise...they were porr haid communism usw usw...
But how can be poorness makes you a criminal...or dirty...?and unrespectfull...

Our grandparents went to germany for excamble and brought right afterwoulds there families there too...they prospered and developed immidiatly...without braking the laws...
They knew ...there is no way of making quikly BIG money...But you have to work for it... ;)

well now my response...

Firstly i wrote about Germany in particular but even then you can find similarities.

So why so many stay there (greeks, turks, italians etc.) ??? Both sides recognized that is was one side economicly just a wishdream and not really fitting at human behaviour! Many came back but many stayed because they were needed longer or had a business or a relationship etc. And if you stay so long there you want to bring your familiy also there. Nobody can expect from human beings to cut the vis-a-vis relationship to the close family (childern, wife)! The point is the government accepted silenly that development because of economic reasons but the sad point is that the don't do active policy to integrate these proper!

And this is really senseless. If you see that your plan is full with failures etc. you have to adopt countermeasures. And the situation changed. People who life in third generation there couldn't be named as Guest-Workers ( even more when they have a german passport!!!) or do you wish that call the greeks in germany still guestworkers ? This is logic beyond the reality !

You never study social science or psychology am i right ? We are talking about human beings which interact with their environment! Who build human-networks etc.



Illegal immigration is something different and you shouldn't generalize. Look some come over illegal ways to countrys which naturally would accept them as (political) refugees. But maybe they couldn't go the diplomatic way with visa etc. because of the circumstances in their homecountries or transitcountries (i.e. Ruanda. Do you think somebody could get there to a embassy and make all the paper stuff?) Sometimes it works sometimes not.

Of course there are also many who just take the illegal routes for economic benefits but these are no enemies. You have to restrict their coming but also find solutions for them in their homecountries.

As a democratic state which bases on humanism, and the equality of all human beings these norms didn't stop at your boundaries (or at the ones of the EU member states).

and you want to be a citizien of a democratic state ? You are talking more like a member of facist banana-republic...they have the responsibility to treat them as human beings who have human needs.



@ Theo
If i have to choose between the two sides (immigrants from underdevelopt regions [Like Greece in the past, south Italy, South-east Turkey] and the a rich state with a working education system, administration and citizienloyalty which is more GULTY that immigration didn't work then i would the second one. I'm talking about the legal immigrants who came for 30 years not the illegal ones.

You came back to Hellas but what about your fellows who didn't ? Did they broke any contract ? Did they did a crime ? Don't think so Theo abi!

And even them you have to help as the stronger side. I don't say that you should give them your last shirt but the chance...maybe in your country (if it is economic realistic for you) or their homecountry.

And Illegals who are refugees after the UN-law should get help at any case!

1. Probably we have to distinguish between "old" and modern immigrants since they definitely seem to be different especially in consciousness towards work, money and life in general.

2. Distinguishing between illegal and legal immigrants is also crucial.

3. Germany: The german politicans indeed contributed a lot to immigration related problems by simply neglecting the importance of integration for society.
The neglection lead to the creation of well-known ghettos.
But despite the neglection and sometimes even a lacking tolerance of germans towards foreigners the consciousness of foreigners themselves hinders the integration process.

4. Aren´t developed countries forced to adapt to immigrants ? Not only immigrants to society?

5. Are temporary stays inhuman ?

6. Isn´t it necessary to establish global prosperity and combat starvation and poverty in order to achieve a long-term success in human equality and also secure the developed world´s future ?

As for the case temporary. There was never a timeframe 123-t ! It was mainly after economic needs and some people still work at their first job! They rised their childerns here etc. and now send them back when they fired or retired ?

Funny.

Kizir...

I suggest you grow up. If this is how you expect to win arguments, then stick to the kiddie forums. You also seem to need an education on basic political philosophies:

Democracy (as it was established in Athens, as it was implemented centuries later in the USA, as it exists in every so-called modern "democracy") provides for equal rights to all CITIZENS. If you are not a citizen (and every state has the right to grant or deny citizenship), then you do not have the privileges that is afforded to it.

When you apply for any sort of TEMPORARY residence (be it a visa or a "guest worker"), it is not the state's fault if you wish to interpret it as a permanent move. Just like a state can expel you when your visa expires, so too can they expel you when your agreement is concluded.

At some point in your life you will understand that adults enter into agreements/contracts and they are expected to abide by them. You shouldn't expect anyone to "give you a break" because down the line you find the agreement/contract not to your liking.

I was talking in the last posts not about political participation but the legal status of immigrants and reasons for their stay and failures in governmental decisions. The idea of vote for immigrants was just a single point. We are
not talking about the definition of citizienship but about human interactions and rights. Btw. American citizienship was offered to nearly everyone who was willing to work and came legally (after a selection in some years) (in this times even illegal). Just in the end years of 19th century was one single juristic act and that was based on racist thoughts (The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1982) mixed with economic fears.

This is just limited legaly right. But then whole reality in the last decades counterdict you and your believe that this is so easy.

About the immigration well there was no contract for leaving after a time schedule etc. It is your fault when you take the word guest-worker to serious. It would be nice to show any governmental decision about it. There was the concept (not even a law to do so!) but in the first years it vanished because the politicians and the society recognize the reality which was very different from this concept.

If you deny human needs and just see the human being as number in a system it is your leak of mature and civil education. You can't treat humans as a part of the KAPITAL. You can invest into their education so that they become more skilled but they are no lifeless objects.

And now especially for the turkish migrants or the ones from EU-members (or states which became EU-members after they sent immigrants) there is even the justificial & legal framework for their permanent stay.
But i don't expect that you know this either. If it would be so that you get people with green card and a timelimit well ok you can handle it different but not after a large time.

You can call me a kiddie but this doesn't change the fact that you are a facist.

It is just a proof for your restricted point of view if you just see the economic and juristic dimension (and even this in a very limited way). Social aspects alone and in connection with economics and juristics are nearly not present in your posts.

Still can't manage to show a sign of maturity?

First off, it is a LACK and not "leak". Second, what is "mature and civil education"?

When you're done scratching your head with the above, start paying attention to what I write: "If this is how you expect to win arguments, then stick to the kiddie forums." You respond with:

I didn't call you a "kiddie", I was commenting on the forums where such crass and uneducated comments are allowed (and you know the one I'm specifically referring to).

When you ever manage to write in a cordial manner, I might just respond to your diatribes.

Gents dont screw the very interesting thread...please///


now back to the topic...

If i understood right ...the first part ..
You wrote...if you could choose between immmigrants from underdeveloped or developed countrys...no?
But this years nobody can my dear friend...Our "immigrants" never were invited nore haid any official legal entry(most of them)...(and this is a huge scandal..that we couldnt stop this or controll it....) I mean we give million of dollars for weappons...but in the end our borders are unprotected...
Also its allways troubel...if your immigrants are folks from neighbour countrys...and especiially in the balkan...(you know what i mean)

Your propably right Kizir...but this count for the first and second generation of immigrants...
My generation in germany...(if they are uneployed...) should return back home ...also the turkish generation of alemangies...you know that Turks controll most of the night /nude etc etc clups around no...? ;)
anyway of corse this doesnt make them yet criminals...but tell me the trueth...it dosent sound good too...lol
Our grandfathers and fathers worked in germany invited from the state...they did a good life and work there...which they all can be proud...
But of corse who can talk about immigrants (inside the EU...member state etc etc ...I dont really count greeks among immigrants anymore you know...later on and if Turkey will be a member not even the Turks)
You know that iam talking about asylanten...in germany ...and illegale in greece...i never compared them with "our" gastarbeiter...our generation(Turks/greeks/italians/spanish)

I agree with you that if a/my country has the economic power to help ...than we should help...but never bringing in danger your own society structur...
Now..about helping UN refugees...
I agree...but this days this part has been manipulated alot of times...
See "Kurds" INSIDE GREECE...see Iraquis...etc etc
I would prefer not to take any of them ...except if they can really prove that they are political refugees...(my opinion)

Regards

@Digenis...
Brother...alot of us make really big mistakes in english...no reason to mocker hem...
iam the badest in this forum with my english... :P

Interesting thread,
How can one proove they are true political refuges, what is the definition? Once a country allows political refugees, they first start to come one by one, it only takes a little while for others to follow with the same excuse but this time in thousands per year.. Can we accept someone who killed another or commited similar crime ,a political refugee? Europe has been the safe haven for most of the criminals and now their societies are starting to pay the price for this arrogant behavior.Illegal immigrants should not have a say in how the country will be ruled wether they are political or otherwise illegal. and countries should think 10.000 times before labelling some one as a political refugee.. While you have your own social problems (social security, lack of jobs etc) one should not meddle with other societies political/social problems..

+1 Beleg...

English isn't my native language and since this won't be a professional article there can be failures. And i think you can deflect the meaning of a single word or not ?




And if i at my post the argumentation LACK coherence then what should i say to yours ? I don't need to rewrite your post exactly since i understand what you mean my kiddie etc.


Theo the point is i'm talking about this generation and their kids.
If you worked 20 years up there paid in social services, education, taxes etc. you want to get your legal claims. And if your childern have there their friends and social network you didn't want to destroy it.
And there are criminal turks/greeks/italian etc. in germany but it would be too much if you write that immigrants created criminality in germany. Thats ridiculous. But the question why so many immigrants (in percent!) are involved in criminal action is a socio-economic.


The question with illegal immigrants is something different but even there i would avoid to make generalisations.

My dear friend...up to 80% rising of criminality in greece after the entry of mostly Albanians and russian and rumanians...arent generalization...
Its a fact...

And for shure our generation also made a differents to "german" criminality...
who controlls...the drug dealing in germany...?
Kurds/Turks/Albanians/Bosnian
Who controlls the "ladys"...
Russians/Kossovars/Balkan people in general...
Who controlls the smugle...? Cigara/textil/high Tech...etc etc
Vietnamese/Polands/Africans/Arabs....
If i can find the statistic which i haid in german i will provide it...

comon now we arent angels at all...

My point is..that if we civilized immigrants couldnt manage to be a part of the german society...with full culturall intigration...after 4 generations...
what should i expect from Albanians...? or simiulars...? <_<
and than giving them even the right to vote ...?

No way...

Some questions are then:

1.To what extent is the criminality problem a matter of consciousness ?

2.To what extent is the issue a matter of lacking perspectives in normal societal and economic process ?

Or is it more a mixture of both ?


1. e.g. :easy life in immigration countries via illegal businesses / no efforts to adapt or integrate

2. no perspectives given through neglection of immigrants




Or is a typical human calculation of risk/reward what do I get (money) with minimal effort --> highest profit potential lies in illegal trade etc. and effort to integrate are to huge

I dont agree. It is the duty of every democratic free country to allow refuge for those were persecuted in their country out of political or social reasons. But it is not that easy to leave the place where you were nurtured and where your familiy and friends live, even when persecuted.

Even for the economic refugees there is a certain explanation to be found, namely globalisation. European companies have entered the domestic markets of these poor countries and hugely effected the working class there. It is ridiculous for one to embrace the positive effects of globalisation (effeciency, greater range of products, etc etc) while negelectng the consequences and trying to get rid of the logical effects (economic immigration, cheap agricultural products from foreign countries)

@Lord

You are jsut seeing one aspect of the criminality. Also look to whom the consumers are. Who are the foremost consumers of those drugs and prostitutes, most likely the Germans. My point is that it is always easier to see the wrongdoings of minorities, because they are easily recognisable and distinguishable then to see the wrongdoings of the domestic inhabitants.

Theo but we have jobs etc. or your fathers had ones!

But if you haven't any perspective because you never got a chance your way to criminality is easy. The percentual share of teenagers with migrant background who didn't make a school-degree (even of the Hauptschule) is higher then the one of the germans. In our times where high education is needed for a employment these have no chance at all! But now let asked ourselves why these kids don't have a chance ?!