AL Cy Young Award, discussion about the 2001 award voting

Shelley935
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(11/12/01 7:48 pm)
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AL Cy Young Award
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The AL Cy Young Award winner will be announced on Thursday.

I posted the following comparisons on a B-B.com thread about this year's contenders. I thought I'd post it here as well.

A few comparisons:

Quality Starts -
Hudson 25
Garcia 24
Mussina 24
Mulder 22
Clemens 21

ERA -
Garcia 3.05
Mussina 3.15
Hudson 3.37
Mulder 3.45
Clemens 3.51

Hits -
Garcia 199
Mussina 202
Clemens 205
Mulder 214
Hudson 216

Runs -
Mussina 87
Garcia 88
Mulder 92
Clemens 94
Hudson 100

Earned Runs -
Mussina 80
Garcia 81
Clemens 86
Hudson 88
Mulder 88

Walks -
Mussina 42
Mulder 51
Garcia 69
Hudson 71
Clemens 72

Strikeouts -
Mussina 214
Clemens 213
Hudson 181
Garcia 163
Mulder 153

B. A. Against -
Garcia .225
Mussina .237
Hudson .245
Clemens .246
Mulder .249

WHIP -
Mussina 1.07
Garcia 1.12
Mulder 1.16
Hudson 1.22
Clemens 1.26

Complete Games -
Mulder 6
Mussina 4
Garcia 4
Hudson 3
Clemens 0

Shutouts -
Mulder 4
Mussina 3
Garcia 3
Clemens 0
Hudson 0

Run Support -
Clemens 6.58
Mulder 5.81
Garcia 5.28
Hudson 5.25
Mussina 4.53

W-L Record -
Mulder 21-8
Clemens 20-3
Hudson 18-9
Garcia 18-6
Mussina 17-11

In addition, the following was emailed to me:

What does this mean? That Roger Clemens will probably still win the Cy Young, based on his W-L record and his reputation.

Comments?

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Free agency sucks.

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KNUCKLECURVE
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(11/12/01 8:54 pm)
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Re: AL Cy Young Award
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Those stats you posted practically jump up and down and scream....HELLO??? RUN SUPPORT...ANYBODY HOME??? Yes, Clemens will win based soley on his won/loss record. Mike could have possibly won at least 22-23 games with a
run or two more in about five of his starts. It makes me ill to think of how he pitched his antlers off, especially down the stretch when it really counted and will probably come in 3rd in the voting...or even worse, 2nd...again.

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mfmussfan
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(11/12/01 9:13 pm)
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AL Cy Young Award
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Unfortunately Roger will again get the Cy Young. The writers love the story of the old guy still has it. Not to say he didn't do well but most pitchers in the majors with his run support could have gotten as many wins. I guess the Cy Young will again go Texas.

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Shelley935
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(11/12/01 9:45 pm)
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Remember the "Image is Everything" commercials featuring Andre Agassi (for Sprite, I think)? Well, to paraphrase that ad -- reputation is everything, and reputation will give Clemens another Cy Young...regardless of whether or not he deserves it.
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Free agency sucks.

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pastels
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(11/13/01 12:02 am)
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RE: AL Cy Young Award
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I think Roger will win it. His record plus his age will be his winning factors.

But I think Moose deserves to win that award. Anything can happen. He might still surprise us all.

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Surhofffan
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(11/13/01 2:56 pm)
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Those voters will go in babbling about "The Rocket's" talented and deserving self as they vote for him to win a Cy Young. Does he deserve it? In my opinion..... NOPE.
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O's fan for life!

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MooseCruse
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(11/13/01 5:16 pm)
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Re: RE: AL Cy Young Award
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Sizing up the Cys

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By Rob Neyer
ESPN.com

Today they're going to announce the winner of the National League Cy Young Award; Thursday we'll find out who won in the American League. And you know what's truly bizarre about the Cy Youngs this year? There seems to be some question about who's going to win the National League award when there really shouldn't be; and there's no question about who's going to win the American League award when there certainly should be.

Curt Schilling will, I suppose, pick up at least a few first-place votes for National League Cy Young, because a fair number of the voters are -- and I say this with all due respect -- simple-minded. They see that Schilling won 22 games and Randy Johnson won "only" 21, and they don't look any farther.

Let's look at this thing rationally, though. Sure, Schilling won one more game than Johnson did (they both lost six games). On the other hand, Johnson's ERA was 17 percent lower than Schilling's, and Johnson struck out 27 percent more hitters than Schilling. They both allowed 9.7 baserunners per nine innings, but Schilling gave up twice as many home runs as Johnson did. Does anyone really want to argue that Schilling's one-win edge outweighs Johnson's advantages? Honestly, the notion strikes me as preposterous.

Whenever I write something like the above, I get e-mails that read something like, "Sure, Johnson may have pitched better than Schilling, but it's not nearly so clear as you make it sound. You're not giving Schilling enough credit."

Look, either Johnson was better or he wasn't. Suppose you've got two basketball players. One of them stands 7 feet, 2 inches; the other stands 7 feet. The taller player is, of course, merely 2.4 percent taller than the shorter player ... but no matter how you choose to interpret the numbers, the taller player is still taller.

That's not to say that baseball statistics are as clear-cut as heights. They're not. But Randy Johnsnon certainly looks "taller," so if you want to argue that Schilling was nevertheless the better, more valuable pitcher, then you must bear the burden of proof. Schilling was great this season, but there's only one National League Cy Young Award available, and The Big Unit deserves it.

In the American League nobody's as tall as Randy Johnson, and of course that's true both figuratively and literally; none of the AL's Cy Young candidates come close to matching Johnson's physical stature, nor did any of them dominate their league as Johnson did his.

But let me describe one Cy Young candidate ... This pitcher finished the season with a 3.51 ERA, which ranked ninth in the league. You might consider him one of the league's most valuable pitchers, if he had chewed up a lot of innings. He didn't, though. This pitcher with the ninth-best ERA in the league finished with the 12th-most innings pitched, behind Steve Sparks, Jeff Weaver, and Mark Buehrle (among others). This pitcher, in fact, didn't lead the American League in any of the "counting" stats; not innings, not strikeouts (third), not even wins (second).

This pitcher is, of course, Roger Clemens, and he's not only a Cy Young candidate; he's the leading Cy Young candidate and might take every first-place vote. Why? Because Clemens did lead the league in one category -- winning percentage -- and he led in that category by quite a bit. Clemens went 20-3, but even that's understating the impact of his winning percentage on observers. Clemens essentially won the Cy Young on September 19, when he ran his record to 20-1.

Granted, 20-1 is awfully impressive. Most baseball writers, and for that matter most baseball fans, get all goggly-eyed when they see 20-1, and you really can't blame them. Hey, I got goggly-eyed, too. Most pitchers who are 20-1, or for that matter 20-3, are indeed the best pitchers in their league.

Just not this time. I probably shouldn't go over this territory again, because I've done it before and so have my colleagues over at Baseball Prospectus, and so I don't particularly want to devote another 500 words to the subject. In a nutshell, though:

1. Clemens received a lot of help from his teammates.
In 2001, only one pitcher in the American League (Paul Abbott) received more run support per nine innings than Clemens did. And no, his teammates didn't score more runs because they were particularly "relaxed" when Clemens pitched. That notion, trotted out whenever a big winner gets big run support, simply doesn't withstand the rigors of even the most rudimentary analysis.

2. Clemens "just knows how to win." This one doesn't hold up, either. In 1996, Clemens posted a 3.63 ERA and went 10-13. In 2001, Clemens posted a 3.51 and went 20-3. Does anyone really think that Clemens forgot how to win in 1996, and then somehow remembered again this year?


It's pretty simple, gang. For the most part, Roger Clemens pitched well this season. And when he didn't pitch well, his teammates bailed him out. He might have been one of the five best pitchers in the American League this year. But the best? Hardly.

So who was the best? Here are my five favorite candidates:

IP OPS W-L ERA
F Garcia 239 627 18- 6 3.05
M Mussina 229 632 17-11 3.15
J Mays 234 654 17-13 3.16
M Buehrle 221 656 16- 8 3.29
T Hudson 235 653 18- 9 3.37

As it happens, these also happen to be the top five ERA qualifiers, but that's not the only reason they made the list. For example, if Freddy Garcia, who pitches in the best pitcher's park in the league, had Tim Hudson's ERA then he wouldn't be here.

Like I said, Garcia pitches in Safeco Field, which is certainly one of the best pitcher's parks in the league. Oakland's Network Associates Coliseum is tough on the hitters, too. Just looking at ERA and home ballparks, the three best pitchers in the American League this season were Mussina, Mays and Buehrle ... but that ignores competition, doesn't it? The American League West was the best division in league's best division and the West clubs played their interleague games against the National League West, the best division in that league. Joe Mays pitches for the Twins; 11 of his 34 starts and eight of his 17 wins came against the awful Tigers and Royals. (Clemens has a similar issue; only six of his 20 wins came against winning teams and he beat the Devil Rays, Orioles, Blue Jays and Tigers for 11 of his 20 wins.)

The truth is that I don't know which of those five pitchers was the best (though if you forced me to choose I'd vote for Mussina). The truth is that none of them jumps out and says, "Pick me!" And the truth is that if I did have a vote, I'd spend more time thinking about this than I have, because my decision would count for something.

What I do know is that Roger Clemens, the greatest pitcher of his generation, wasn't the American League's greatest pitcher in 2001.

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KNUCKLECURVE
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(11/13/01 7:48 pm)
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Re: RE: AL Cy Young Award
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Whoa, what's this? Somebody actually put some thought into the Cy Young voting? My prayers have been answered. Just think what the reaction would be if Mike were to win (besides having to perform CPR on him and 3/4 of the baseball world). Sadly, past history is doomed to repeat itself. The almighty won-loss record rules, but thanks for the great article, MooseCruse. At least we know one writer is paying attention out there.

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Shelley935
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(11/13/01 9:11 pm)
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Two more categories to compare:

SLG % Allowed -
Garcia .344
Mulder .349
Hudson .350
Mussina .358
Clemens .375

OBP Allowed -
Mussina .274
Garcia .283
Mulder .294
Hudson .303
Clemens .309

In the 15 categories listed in my two posts on this thread, Mike is ranked 1st in six of those categories. Garcia is ranked 1st in four of them, Mulder is ranked 1st three times, and both Hudson and Clemens are ranked 1st once. It should be noted that the only category in which Clemens is ranked 1st is run support.

This year's Cy Young award should go to either Mike or to Freddie Garcia. If Clemens wins the Cy Young, it will be almost as ridiculous as Rafael Palmeiro winning that Gold Glove a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, I believe that's exactly what is going to happen.
_______________________________________________
Mike is a Yankee. Robbie is an Indian. Brady is an Oriole.
Free agency sucks.

Edited by: Shelley935 at: 11/14/01 8:47:22 am

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cdm71998
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(11/13/01 11:15 pm)
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Quote:
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This year's Cy Young award should go to either Mike or to Freddie Garcia. If Clemens wins the Cy Young, it will be almost as ridiculous as Rafael Palmeiro winning that Gold Glove a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, I believe that's exactly what is going to happen.
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I don't think that anything could be as ridiculous as Palmiero winning the Gold Glove for 1B for playing 28 games.

I'm not the biggest Clemens fan although I'm a huge Yankees fan. I'm not a pitching stats wizard. I don't know much about what they consider when voting for the Cy Young Award. Now that I have shown my incompetency in this, here's my opinion.

Clemens did go 20-1 which no one has done before. He also moved up to 3rd on the All-Time Strikeout list and 1st in the AL strikeout list. And he's 39 years old. I don't know if they take this into real consideration when voting but I think that's why so much was written about Clemens winning this year's CYA.

(Pssst....Mussina was our best pitcher though.)

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Shelley935
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(11/13/01 11:42 pm)
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I don't think that anything could be as ridiculous as Palmiero winning the Gold Glove for 1B for playing 28 games.
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Well...I did say "almost."


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Clemens did go 20-1 which no one has done before.
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True. And as I've said previously, on this board and elsewhere, no pitcher can win 20 games on just luck. But Clemens won those 20 games with a pretty fair amount of help from his teammates (e.g., very strong run support). Had Mike received better run support, he would have won more than 20 games.


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He also moved up to 3rd on the All-Time Strikeout list and 1st in the AL strikeout list.
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These are certainly great accomplishments -- Clemens and his fans should be very proud of them. However, what is the purpose of the Cy Young Award? Is it to recognize certain milestone accomplishments of pitchers, or is it to recognize the pitcher who pitched the best over the course of the entire season? If it's the former, then Clemens should win. If it is the latter, then he should not.
_______________________________________________
Mike is a Yankee. Robbie is an Indian. Brady is an Oriole.
Free agency sucks.

Edited by: Shelley935 at: 11/13/01 10:42:58 pm

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cdm71998
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(11/14/01 12:18 am)
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Had Mike received better run support, he would have won more than 20 games.
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I whole heartedly agree. I've even printed out his stats to check it out. He would have definitely won at least 22 games.


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These are certainly great accomplishments -- Clemens and his fans should be very proud of them. However, what is the purpose of the Cy Young Award? Is it to recognize certain milestone accomplishments of pitchers, or is it to recognize the pitcher who pitched the best over the course of the entire season? If it's the former, then Clemens should win. If it is the latter, then he should not.
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I was just pointing out that stuff as to the reason why the press was getting in contact with the engravers in July. As this season closed though, we saw who the best pitchers really were in this league and team. Mussina was the one mentioned not Clemens many times. Much of the press sounded like they were saying Clemens was going to get it just because they had predicted it already and they didn't want to change their minds. But a lot of the press also said that Mussina was the best pitcher on this team.

Regardless of who wins, I just hope it is someone who deserves it. It looks like there are a lot of deserving candidates.

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Shelley935
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(11/14/01 9:58 am)
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Re: AL Cy Young Award
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For the record, I'm not trying to turn this into a Roger vs. Moose battle. They're both great pitchers, and the Yankees are lucky to have them. But as we all know, a pitcher's W-L record does not tell the entire story of how he has pitched over the course of the season. The Cy Young should not go to Clemens just on the basis of his record. If wins are the only thing that matters, then the award should go to Mulder, who had 21 wins.

If the Cy Young award was some sort of lifetime achievement award, Clemens would (and should) win it. But it is supposed to be for the pitcher who pitched the best throughout a particular season, so I think Garcia and Mike deserve the award far more than Clemens.
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Free agency sucks.

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KNUCKLECURVE
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(11/14/01 8:23 pm)
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Clemens won 11 of his games against the Tigers, Orioles, Blue Jays and D-Rays. Mike went up against Pedro twice (and would have a third time if Torre hadn't swtiched the rotation) and usually pitched against the opposing team's ace. How many pitchers can be around the plate all the time, be in the top 3 of the league in K's, ERA, hits, runs, WHIP and still only give up 42 walks all year...and do it without a 98mph heater? If the Cy Young award is going to automatically go to the pitcher with the most wins or best won/loss percentage why bother to vote? BTW - Randy Johnson hauled in a mere $750,000.00 for winning the Cy Young. That comes to about $2,016 per K. Does anybody else have a headache?

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Shelley935
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(11/14/01 11:17 pm)
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Clemens will get the Cy Young Award. I don't think for one moment that he deserves it over Garcia or Moose, but he'll win it anyway. If by some miracle the baseball writers actually decide to give the AL Cy Young to a pitcher who truly deserves it this year, they'll probably give it to Garcia. I think those 11 losses will hurt Mike...besides, he doesn't appear to be the most popular guy among baseball writers......

The top 3 should be:
1) Mussina
2) Garcia
3) Clemens

The top 3 will be:
1) Clemens
2) Garcia
3) Mussina

GOOD LUCK, MOOSE!!!

(By the way, I would not be too broken-hearted if Garcia won. If that happens, then at least the award will have gone to someone who actually deserves it.)
_______________________________________________
Mike is a Yankee. Robbie is an Indian. Brady is an Oriole.
Free agency sucks.

Edited by: Shelley935 at: 11/14/01 10:20:31 pm

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MooseCruse
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(11/15/01 3:15 am)
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I think it will be closer then we think, but will still go to Clemens. Oh, well. I don't have too much else to say, you guys have covered it all.


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"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~ Rogers Hornsby"

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Shelley935
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(11/15/01 10:00 am)
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Final comment before the winner is announced. People talk about how tough and gutsy Clemens is and how he had several gutsy performances this season. This is true -- he is tough and gutsy. But if the Cy Young Award is for toughness, then it should go to Charles Nagy of Cleveland, whose elbow pretty much has no cartilege left. Chuck's stats were terrible this season, but he made a valiant effort to continue pitching after elbow surgery. He almost retired this year because he felt he could no longer perform up to his standards, but the Indians organization admires and respects his desire and gutsy attitude so much that they persuaded him to stay.

Obviously, Nagy is not going win the 2001 AL Cy Young. My point in mentioning him is that gutsy, gritty performances don't necessarily = the best performances. Therefore, using that as one of the criteria for the award makes no sense.
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Free agency sucks.

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Cleveland OH fan
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(11/15/01 1:00 pm)
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I bet Charlie would like to hear that. He's a real class act. That's why the team made him raise the divisional flag.

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cdm71998
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(11/15/01 2:53 pm)
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They will be announcing it at approximately 2 pm. I guess we'll find out then. MLB.com has a good article called "The Joy of Six". It really only compares Clemens, Moyer, and Garcia. But it gives pros and cons on each.

cdm71998

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(11/15/01 3:15 pm)
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Thursday, November 15

Clemens captures sixth Cy Young honor

www.espn.go.com/mlb/news/...78580.html

NEW YORK -- Roger Clemens won his record sixth Cy Young Award on Thursday, receiving 21 of 28 first-place votes for the American League honor.

Voting results
Complete AL Cy Young voting results, on a 5-3-1 basis:
Pitcher 1st 2nd 3rd Total
R. Clemens 21 5 2 122
M. Mulder 2 13 11 60
F. Garcia 4 8 11 55
J. Moyer 1 2 1 12
M. Mussina -- -- 2 2
T. Hudson -- -- 1 1

The Rocket, who led the New York Yankees to their fourth straight AL pennant, also received five second-place votes and two thirds for 122 points from a panel of the Baseball Writers' Association of America.

Clemens, 20-3 with a 3.51 ERA and 213 strikeouts, is the only pitcher to win more than four Cy Youngs. Arizona's Randy Johnson won his fourth on Tuesday, matching Steve Carlton and Greg Maddux.

Oakland's Mark Mulder (21-8, 3.64) was second in the balloting with two first-place votes, 13 seconds and 11 thirds for 60 points. Seattle's Freddy Garcia (18-6, 3.05), was next, with four firsts, eight seconds and 11 thirds for 55 points.

Seattle's Jamie Moyer (20-6, 3.43) got the other first-place vote and was fourth with 12 points, followed by Mike Mussina of the Yankees (17-11, 3.15) with two points, and Tim Hudson of the Athletics (18-9, 3.37) with one.

At 39 years, 3½ months, Clemens became the third-oldest Cy Young winner. Early Wynn was 39 years, 10 months when he won the 1959 AL honor for the Chicago White Sox, and Gaylord Perry was 40 years, two months when he won the 1978 NL Cy Young for the San Diego Padres.

Clemens is the first player to win a BBWAA award on three teams. He won the Cy Young for Boston in 1986, 1987 and 1991, then won it for Toronto in 1997 and 1998.

He became the first pitcher ever to start a season 20-1 before losing his final two decisions. After injuring a hamstring and struggling in the first round of the playoffs, he rebounded to pitch well in the league championship series against Seattle and was the Yankees' most consistent pitcher in the World Series against Arizona. He won Game 3 and allowed just one run in New York's 3-2 loss in Game 7.

Boston's Pedro Martinez had won the previous two AL Cy Youngs but was injured for much of this season.

Clemens, a six-time 20-game winner, had the second-highest ERA for an AL Cy Young winner, below only LaMarr Hoyt's 3.66 for the Chicago White Sox in 1983.

It was the fifth Cy Young Award for the Yankees, the first since Ron Guidry in 1978. Bob Turley won in 1958, Whitey Ford in 1961, and Sparky Lyle in 1977.

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Shelley935
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(11/15/01 3:29 pm)
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Gosh, what a surprise. And what a joke. Clemens deserves this Cy Young about as much as Palmeiro deserved that Gold Glove.

Freddy Garcia was third? Behind Mulder?? Please. I hope the BBWAA bought Garcia a drink before they screwed him.

The BBWAA hit a home run with their NL Cy Young voting, but they struck out with the AL Cy Young voting.

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Free agency sucks.

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Clacson

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(11/15/01 4:44 pm)
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How does Moose only get 2 3rd place votes????

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Shelley935
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(11/15/01 5:13 pm)
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I'm only slightly surprised at Mike's placement. Remember, he had 11 losses (THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH, YANKEES OFFENSE!). Besides that, he's also at the top of most baseball writers' sh..er, poop list. So Mike's placement isn't a major shock. I'm far more surprised that Garcia was third.

Just curious -- is there actually a trophy that goes along with the CYA? If so, I hope there's enough room on Clemens' award to include the names of all the Yankees position players. Heaven knows they helped him get that award with all that run support, so their names should appear right next to his.
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Free agency sucks.

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MooseCruse
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(11/15/01 6:34 pm)
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Yes there is a trophy. Clemens said that he has the other 5 placed in such a manner that he can see one from any position in his weight room, I suppose it helps motivate him. He dedicated this one to his ailing mother.

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"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~ Rogers Hornsby"
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Edited by: MooseCruse at: 11/15/01 5:44:39 pm

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KNUCKLECURVE
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(11/15/01 9:01 pm)
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It's a good thing the voting doesn't go any farther than third place...most of the writers can't count that high.

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cdm71998
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(11/16/01 1:03 am)
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Devil's Advocate here. Roger (at least this year) always acknowledged his teammates when he reached another accomplishment. He acknowledged those that played in back of them as well as his fellow pitchers.

From Today's MLB article (11/16):
http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb...e=11152001-1928
"To me, the Cy Young is a team award also," Clemens said. "Those guys make me shine, make me look good when I'm out there on the mound. Every time I look at a Cy Young Award, I think of the guys that were behind it and helped me win it."

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Shelley935
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(11/16/01 1:23 am)
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Roger (at least this year) always acknowledged his teamates when he reached another accomplishment. He acknowledged those that played in back of them as well as his fellow pitchers.
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Acknowledge them?! Heck, that's the very least he could do. What he should do is buy each of 'em a Rolex and a car! (Well, except for his fellow starting pitchers...they weren't the ones who gave him the extraordinarily generous run support.)

There doesn't appear to be very much room on that award for all of the names of Roger's teammates who contributed so generously towards that Cy Young. Guess they'll just have to put those names on there in veeerrrryy small letters.

_______________________________________________
Mike is a Yankee. Robbie is an Indian. Brady is an Oriole.
Free agency sucks.

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Shelley935
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(11/16/01 10:30 am)
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For the record, Clemens fans, just because I firmly believe that there were several pitchers who were more deserving of the Cy Young award than Clemens, that doesn't mean that I don't think he pitched well this season. Of course he did. He had a considerable amount of help, but he still pitched well.

I joked on another thread, either on this forum or on B-B.com, that I probably did more research in looking up the stats for Moose, Clemens, Garcia, etc. than the writers who vote on the award did. I am convinced that this is true. We are not baseball experts here, we are just fans. But in several threads in this forum, we have shown that there is far more to a pitcher's performance than his W-L record. Too bad the so-called experts didn't bother to do as much research as we have done.

It appears that Mike really has been right all along -- throughout his career -- about the members of the print media... THEY ARE STUPID.
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Free agency sucks.

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35iscoolyanksrule
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(11/16/01 11:47 am)
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Re: AL Cy Young Award
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The right guy won. When you go 20-1 (when no one else ever has), the right guy won. If Moose got all the run support and went 20-3 while Clemens didn't get the run support and ended up with Moose's record 17-11, everybody would be saying "Oh, yeah, Moose wins Cy Young. He deserves it."

Regarding below, who are these "experts"? Most must be Twins fans and Clemens haters. Joe Mays finishing second with the MOST first place votes? Give me a break.

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13 Baseball Prospectus staffers went into the polling booths, voicing their opinions on who should win the major baseball awards this year. Here are the results for the AL Cy Young Award:

Player - Ballots (First) Points
Mike Mussina - 13 (3) 88
Joe Mays - 12 (5) 83
Mark Mulder - 13 (3) 78
Freddy Garcia - 10 (1) 49
Mark Buehrle - 10 20
Tim Hudson - 5 (1) 18
Roger Clemens - 2 2
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Clacson

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Posts: 126
(11/16/01 6:50 pm)
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Re: AL Cy Young Award
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I knew Clemens was going to win.

But gosh dang it, only 2 3rd place votes for a guy that was 2nd in ERA (nevermind that the guy who was 1st in ERA plays in one of the best pitcher's park's in baseball, and Oakland's Stadium is fairly pitcher friendly too) 2nd in SO, 1st in walks alowed, 1st in WHIP, 3rd in IP, (More due to Torre and a good bullpen than not being able to pitch those innings) 1st in earned runs allowed, 1st or 2nd in hits allowed, and @#%$ near last in run support.

Jumpin' Jehosephat!

Come on!

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Shelley935
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Posts: 4616
(11/16/01 8:34 pm)
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Re: AL Cy Young Award
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"To me, the Cy Young is a team award also," Clemens said. "Those guys make me shine, make me look good when I'm out there on the mound. Every time I look at a Cy Young Award, I think of the guys that were behind it and helped me win it."
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You bet your tushie it's a team award, Rogey baby. You pitched well, but you had some major help on the way to those 20 wins.

Here's an example of the kind of help Clemens received from his teammates, enabling him to win so many (and lose so few) games. In Clemens' first 5 starts, his ERA was an eye-popping 5.03. Mike's ERA wasn't much lower at 4.78. But Roger's W-L record after five games was 2-0, with 3 no-decisions. Mike's record was 1-3, with 1 ND. The difference? The Yankees scored 10 runs for Mike in his first 5 starts; they scored 32 runs for Roger. I'm not talking about the total runs scored by the Yankees in those games, I'm just talking about the runs that the Yankees scored while Roger and Mike were in the games. Pretty big difference, yes? Not only is this an example of the kind of help Clemens received from his teammates, but it's also indicative of the way the entire season was for both Roger and Mike. It is easier for a pitcher to win when his offense is scoring lots of runs behind him.


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If Moose got all the run support and went 20-3 while Clemens didn't get the run support and ended up with Moose's record 17-11, everybody would be saying "Oh, yeah, Moose wins Cy Young. He deserves it."
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35iscoolyanksrule, I can't speak for any other Mussina fans, but I can assure you that I have no problem acknowledging the fact that high run support helps a pitcher win games. As someone who has followed Mike's career for longer than just the 2001 season, I am well aware that Mike has been on both sides of the run support fence. In 1996, Mike won 19 games, which sounds like he had a pretty good season. But his ERA was 4.81, and he gave up 264 hits, 137 runs, 69 walks, and 31 home runs -- by far the worst numbers of his career. How the heck did he manage to win 19 games? Run support. He had lots of it that year. His teammates saved his butt in 1996. Roger's teammates didn't need to "save" his butt this season, but they certainly helped it.

Some criticism has been leveled at Mike for the "blowouts" he suffered this season (e.g., the 9-3 loss to Florida, the 12-2 loss to Texas, etc.). Did you guys know that Mike allowed 5 or more runs this (regular) season in 8 games, while Roger allowed 5 or more runs in 9 games? Mike won 1 of those games (the 15-5 thumping of Cleveland, which went a long way in kicking his run support total up over 4), lost 5, and had 2 no-decisions. In the 9 games where Roger gave up 5 or more runs, he won 4, lost 2, and had 3 no-decisions. How did that happen? Say it with me now -- RUN SUPPORT. In 20 of Mike's regular season starts, the Yankees scored 2 or fewer runs for him 20 times; the Yankees scored 2 or fewer runs for Clemens 11 times. Again, let me point out that it is easier for a pitcher to win when his offense is scoring a lot of runs for him.

Do I think Mike should have won the CYA? Honestly...no. The 11 losses were just too much. Among the AL pitchers with at least 17 wins, only Joe Mays has more losses (13). We can speculate all we want that if Mike had gotten Roger's run support, his W-L record might have been 22-6. But his record wasn't 22-6, it was 17-11. I do, however, believe that Garcia or perhaps Mulder should have won the CYA. Other than wins, Garcia's overall numbers were better than Clemens'; most of Mulder's numbers were better than Clemens', and he had one more win.

Oh, and 35iscoolyanksrule, with regard to the votes from the Baseball Prospectus staffers...I didn't say that I agreed with them, I just said that I got that info in an email! I definitely agree with you about Mays.

Clacson, I knew that Clemens would win too.

By the way, one of the side effects, so to speak, of great success is paranoia, as evidenced by the belief of some Yankee fans that the press outside of New York is "against" the Yankees. (That's not meant as a criticism at all; that "side effect" is just human nature.) Roger Clemens' landslide win effectively debunks that "the-media-hates-us" myth.
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Mike is a Yankee. Robbie is an Indian. Brady is an Oriole.
Free agency sucks.

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MooseCruse
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Posts: 94
(11/16/01 9:04 pm)
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Re: AL Cy Young Award
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THe Yanks scored 115 runs for Moose in 228.2 innings, and 161 for Roger in 220.1. That's a 46 run differential. Those runs will help you win some games. Roger was a gutsy pitcher for us this year in the playoffs, the phrase "True Grit" comes to mind, but I don't think he was the best pitcher in the AL.


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"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~ Rogers Hornsby
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KNUCKLECURVE
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Posts: 391
(11/16/01 10:12 pm)
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Re: AL Cy Young Award
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OK- let me join in the over-kill deparment. Clemens was not the best pitcher in the AL this season...period. You want guts? Try pitching when you know you can't afford to make one, single mistake or the game's over. I've said it many times before. The won/loss record for pitchers should be eliminated. It's misleading, over-rated and unfair. This is supposed to be a team sport. How about if we charge a batter with the loss if he grounds into a DP in the bottom of the 9th with his team down by 1. Maybe the catcher should take the loss for a passed ball with the bases loaded. For the 900th time, the only category Clemens led the league in was run support, which translated into wins. Yes, Mike did have those blowouts, but very few pitchers make it through the entire season without at least one. Despite those two games, he still almost ended up with an ERA under 3.00, which would have been exceptional for an AL pitcher. Shel has already posted the rest of the stats, which speak loud and clear. The only problem is that writers are blind and deaf. No, I didn't really expect Mike to win, but 2 third place votes is inexcusable...and it's even more so if it was a result of Mike's reluctance to talk to them. The Cy Young Award is not supposed to be a popularity contest.

Garcia should have won.

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Clacson
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Posts: 127
(11/16/01 10:35 pm)
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Re: AL Cy Young Award
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Actually...

If the Yanks didn't have such a good bullpen (The W boys aside) Moose might've had a lower ERA. He gave up 1 less run that Garcia but pitched less innings.

Anyways....

I already knew most sports writers were idiots.

I thought I'd be pleasantly surprised.

Not that Moose would win mind you, but that he'd get SOME recognition.

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AlexNYC
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Posts: 770
(11/17/01 10:10 am)
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Re: AL Cy Young Award
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Shelley's quote:
I hope the BBWAA bought Garcia a drink before they screwed him.

LOL!!!

Shelley never fails to make me laugh. I also agree Clemens probably wasn't the most clear obvious winner, but there is always a certain amount of politics and previous years performances that play into voting. I'm not too suprised he won. He's had better years though.

Hey, it happens.......

Alex

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Shelley935
Mother Hen
Posts: 4628
(11/17/01 12:01 pm)
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Re: AL Cy Young Award
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MooseCruse, Clemens was, indeed, very gutsy in the playoffs. He didn't pitch very well in the ALDS because of his hamstring, but he was out there trying. Gotta give him credit for that. And once his leg felt better...well, we saw how he pitched in the WS. But the CYA isn't for the grittiest pitcher -- as I said earlier in this thread, if it was, then it should have gone to Charlie Nagy of the Indians -- it's for the best. Roger Clemens was without question one of the best pitchers in the AL this season...but he wasn't the best.

Alex -- Do you suppose the BBWAA just left Garcia a note on his pillow the next morning?
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Mike is a Yankee. Robbie is an Indian.
Free agency sucks.

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Shelley935
Mother Hen
Posts: 4683
(11/21/01 11:34 am)
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Baseball Weekly on the AL Cy Young
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In the new issue of USA Today Baseball Weekly, Mat Olkin reiterates the point I've been trying to make in this thread, and on B-B.com, about the amount of help Clemens had from his teammates in winning the CYA.


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How to go 20-3

Roger Clemens won the AL Cy Young award thanks to his 20-3 record. Yet, five AL pitchers had more quality starts than Clemens. How was it that Clemens was the one to end up with the phenomenal won-lost record?

Pitcher --------- QS ----- W-L ----- non-QS ----- W-L
Tim Hudson ---- 25 ----- 16-3 ----- 10 ---------- 2-6
Freddy Garcia -- 24 ----- 16-2 ----- 10 ---------- 2-4
Mike Mussina --- 24 ----- 15-6 ----- 10 ---------- 2-5
Barry Zito ------ 24 ----- 15-2 ----- 11 ---------- 2-6
Mark Mulder ---- 22 ----- 17-3 ----- 12 ---------- 4-5
Roger Clemens - 21 -----15-0 ------ 12 ---------- 5-3

The difference, essentially, is that the Yankees bailed out Clemens with a ton of runs whenever he pitched poorly. In his 12 non-quality starts, the Yankees averaged 7.4 runs and scored 8 or more runs six times. With that much support, he was able to go 5-3 in those games, despite a 6.05 ERA. By comparison, Joe Mays had a lower ERA (5.98) in his 14 non-quality starts but went 1-11.
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Wonder if they've engraved Clemens' teammates' names on that award yet?
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Mike is a Yankee. Robbie is an Indian.
Free agency sucks.

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KNUCKLECURVE
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Posts: 409
(11/21/01 9:09 pm)
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Re: Baseball Weekly on the AL Cy Young
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Maybe they were just afraid that Roger would beat the living crap outta them if they didn't vote for him.

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Shelley935
Mother Hen
Posts: 4691
(11/22/01 10:59 pm)
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Re: Baseball Weekly on the AL Cy Young
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ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

Yes, that must be the reason he won!
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Mike is a Yankee. Robbie is an Indian.
Free agency sucks.

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MooseCruse
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Posts: 96
(11/26/01 4:50 pm)
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Re: Baseball Weekly on the AL Cy Young
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Go here:
http://www.baseballprimer.com/articles/eme...1-11-23_0.shtml
There is a long and detailed statistical assesment of the AL Cy Young situation.


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"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~ Rogers Hornsby
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KNUCKLECURVE
Member
Posts: 426
(11/26/01 7:54 pm)
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Re: Baseball Weekly on the AL Cy Young
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MooseCruse - That was absolutely amazing! My head is spinning and I'm cross-eyed after trying to unravel all the math, but it was well worth it. Looks like we were right after all..I think. Muchas gracias! One of these days, I'll have to really take the time to comprehend it all. We know who rules around here!

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Shelley935
Mother Hen
Posts: 4723
(11/27/01 12:49 am)
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Re: Baseball Weekly on the AL Cy Young
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Very, very interesting reading -- thanks for sharing that link, MooseCruse!

That web site is probably way over the heads of most baseball writers........
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Mike is a Yankee. Robbie is an Indian.
Free agency sucks.