Join the millions that use us for their forum communities. Create your own forum today.
zIFBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Welcome to Iwrg Lucha Libre. We hope you enjoy your visit.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

Join our community!

If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Name:   Password:


 Linguistic Framework, from the newest IWRG report on SC
Phil Schneider
Posted: Aug 12 2010, 12:36 PM


Group: Admin
Posts: 368
Member No.: 1
Joined: 9-February 10

Tomk wrote this about a mediocre undercard trios. I agree with him about the lack of vocabulary available to shorthand this kind of thing and figured we could hash something out here.

TKG: They work from a pretty basic template here. First fall is one tecnico and one rudo match up do some technical exchanges and mat work where other two rudos interfere to break up pins which leads to all out brawl… rudos isolate and double team triple team tecnicos. Second fall is more streetfight and triple teaming tecnicos until rudo blows something and tecnicos mount a comeback. Third fall is each tecnico getting one on one opportunity against all three rudos with tecnicos winning all the exchange, which leads to two tecnicos do dive train and one tecnico is left in ring with one rudo. One of the real frustrations in writing about lucha is that we don’t have vocabulary/short hand for any of these sections of a match or for any of these roles within those sections. Applying southern tag shorthand to describe those sections misses the point. We have terms for every type of dive and dive variation but for those of us who enjoy lucha structure we have no short hand. This lack of shorthand handicaps the ability to write something more nuanced. "Rudos brawl on floor leading to isolating one tecnico and beating on him two or three on one, than throwing him out before the next tecnico recovers and is able to get in ring" is a staple that I don’t have a term for (or for any of the roles in that structure). No general term for that ”King of the Hill” section, which means I can’t really compare particular versions to Bruno Sammartino “controlling center of ring” matches, can’t say much on variations (when one rudo stays on floor to continue beating down and keeping other two tecnicos out), can't say much about how a rudo or tecnico is fucking up that section, etc . Can’t explain when it is done well and the beat downs and toss outs are done in such a way that no technico is left to look like an idiot standing on the floor with his thumb in his ass not breaking up stuff. When rudo ref has to interfere to keep tecnicos out, when heavyweight or just overweight tecnico sells wind on floor longer than his more junior partners. Don’t have a term for the face eating the beating. FIP is a term that was invented for Southern tag. Does FIP accurately describe the lucha tecnico role. As guy being beat down he’s half FIP/half ring apron guy interfering as it’s all about guy trying to regroup and start some offense and not pulling it off since the numbers are against him. The tecnico mounting a comeback section is often done like a hockey power play. Here (and in every Heavy Boy match) Heavy Boy torches his shoulder on a corner charge and (even beaten down) the faces when man up can take advantage and finally regroup. Sometimes the comeback is set up by tossing a tecnico highflyer into ropes where he can hit his stuff, sometimes the tecnicos just fight back to offense, finally recover their strength, or (like last weeks Ultraman dive on Truama II) take out a rudo with a dive setting up a two on two. The lack of voacabulary/shorthand makes it difficult to point out when it is done well/poorly or any of the neat idiosyncratic things that make one version different than other. Black Terry Jr has been more erratic in the last couple of weeks and I kind of think developing a vocabulary would be a useful project for Segunda Caida readers/IWRG message board posters, while we still have this resource. Anyways, Eros is fun as usual, and it was neat to see him get to work someone different in his technical exchange section (Comando Negro) and his submission finisher on Epidemia in the third fall was awesome. But while Heavy Boy is a guy who I can take by himself, I really don’t care for the Pareja Toxico. I’m not a big fan of “Innovative Offense” type wrestlers to begin with. But even within that genre they manage to make their Rube Goldberg offense come off as dull.
Posted: Aug 17 2010, 08:17 AM


Group: Members
Posts: 27
Member No.: 13
Joined: 10-February 10

I didn't get a chance to listen to the last podcast, so whatever came of this? I understand what Tom is trying to get at, but really he seems to just want a shorthand for saying why a match is good. I remember the Cerebros vs. Gringos cage match from earlier this year was particularly excellent because it did not have anybody standing around looking like a goof. Same thing with some of the other brawls we have seen this year, like the Gringos vs. Terry, Cerebro & Chico Che match. Aside from obvious things like blown spots and general sloppiness, bad lucha often seems to involve guys standing around for no reason. They weren't beat up; they often are in the ring watching a partner get double teamed, waiting their turn. Good lucha avoids these problems, and excellent lucha keeps you from even realizing this is a potential problem. That said, I don't think there is any pressing need for some new terminology to discuss these things. When guys are out of place or simply looking lost in any wrestling match from anywhere in the world, it detracts from the match. Lucha, with its abundance of trios matches, just presents more opportunities for guys to make these mistakes.

On a related note, one of the things that drives me nuts about morons that "don't get lucha" is the "it looks so fake" talking point. Although I don't run into it as often (but this may be me just avoiding it), this never made sense to me. I've always understood lucha as being far more realistic, in that luchadores are wrestling several times a week, and obviously don't want to get hurt. When something important is on the line, like your mask or your hair, you may go all out in a crazy brawl. If you're just in a normal match, why are you going to try and get yourself killed to win it? To me, this makes far more sense than guys in WWE "giving it their all" every single night, when we all know this is obviously not true. Lucha is like baseball: you want to win every game, but if you're down 8-2 in the 7th, nobody is going to fault you for not diving to catch a foul ball.
« Next Oldest | IWRG | Next Newest »
zIFBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Join the millions that use us for their forum communities. Create your own forum today.
Learn More · Sign-up for Free

Topic Options

Hosted for free by zIFBoards* (Terms of Use: Updated 2/10/2010) | Powered by Invision Power Board v1.3 Final © 2003 IPS, Inc.
Page creation time: 0.2844 seconds | Archive